2012 Lewis & Clark People Forum

[un-vordox]

I’m a Lewis & Clark student myself & I wanted to maybe offer a different view. I think y'all deserve the same positive experience I had when I chose L&C back and I’m happy to answer a few questions if there are any. And just to say, I don't speak with authority, just someone who's willing to talk.

I'm interested equally in L&C and UO. From what I have heard both have great environmental law programs. UO is cheaper, which is nice, but L&C is higher up on the top schools list. So here is my question: in your opinion or from what you've heard, how much does the rank of the school matter in terms of getting a job? (And I mean small differences in the ranking. Obviously Harvard vs somewhere small matters.)
THanks!

In case you didn't see this link, it was back on the 2nd page of this thread:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 0VkE#gid=0

Obviously this doesn't cover all aspects of the job market, but it at least addresses the representation of Oregon's different law schools in the state's biggest firms.

ETA: fixed the link. I messed it up the first time.

[kid-a]

Hi there! Thanks much for the questions. I’m a 2L now, was 100% on the environmental road coming into law school, but since opportunities have expanded since being here, so have my interests. I’m a little cautious [reading above] of telling my experience because I might not represent everyone. I think you write your own story here for the most part. People here are pretty friendly and nice, not hard to get to know people of all levels. I haven't seen anyone puff themselves up or cut others down ever. Not being yourself is probably the easiest way to not be trusted or taken seriously. Prospects: Got a clerkship in 1L summer, and 2L summer will be easier because I know more people. I somehow met all the goals I set coming into school, but what I would tell myself in hindsight is that you don't know what law school is all about until you actually do it.

[un-vordox]

Hi there! Thanks much for the questions. I’m a 2L now, was 100% on the environmental road coming into law school, but since opportunities have expanded since being here, so have my interests. I’m a little cautious [reading above] of telling my experience because I might not represent everyone. I think you write your own story here for the most part. People here are pretty friendly and nice, not hard to get to know people of all levels. I haven't seen anyone puff themselves up or cut others down ever. Not being yourself is probably the easiest way to not be trusted or taken seriously. Prospects: Got a clerkship in 1L summer, and 2L summer will be easier because I know more people. I somehow met all the goals I set coming into school, but what I would tell myself in hindsight is that you don't know what law school is all about until you actually do it.

Would you mind telling us your class rank? Thanks!

[kid-a]

I’m a Lewis & Clark student myself & I wanted to maybe offer a different view. I think y'all deserve the same positive experience I had when I chose L&C back and I’m happy to answer a few questions if there are any. And just to say, I don't speak with authority, just someone who's willing to talk.

I'm interested equally in L&C and UO. From what I have heard both have great environmental law programs. UO is cheaper, which is nice, but L&C is higher up on the top schools list. So here is my question: in your opinion or from what you've heard, how much does the rank of the school matter in terms of getting a job? (And I mean small differences in the ranking. Obviously Harvard vs somewhere small matters.)
THanks!

Hi! And thanks too for the questions. I'm lucky to know people at all three law schools in Oregon, and have visited each campus. I have to say each has its own character as well as culture. U of O has a very nice campus, and they host the Public Interest Environmental Law Conference each year, so that's kinda cool. They recently got a new dean, I think--but that's probably the limit of what I know other than anecdotes from my friends.

L&C's profs are excellent. They are good at teaching, many are experts in their field, and they have high expectations (you WILL be challenged). The campus is also amazing (I'm watching the snow fall on the forest trees outside the library window now).

How much does a rank matter in terms of a job? In both what I've heard from many practitioners is they know far less than you about rankings. Sure, they have a vague idea that some schools are better at training people for certain areas of law. Big law firms care if you've got good grades and are willing to work unreal hours. The Oregon market seems to consider L&C applicants before others, and L&C career services is extremely active in getting students and alums integrated into the legal market. But above all this general stuff, if you get out there and talk to people, you will have an easier time, period. Networking > other factors. Eugene is a bit out of they way for networking, but I did see some U of O grads do very well it in the Portland market as well. Hope that helps a little.

[kid-a]

Hi there! Thanks much for the questions. I’m a 2L now, was 100% on the environmental road coming into law school, but since opportunities have expanded since being here, so have my interests. I’m a little cautious [reading above] of telling my experience because I might not represent everyone. I think you write your own story here for the most part. People here are pretty friendly and nice, not hard to get to know people of all levels. I haven't seen anyone puff themselves up or cut others down ever. Not being yourself is probably the easiest way to not be trusted or taken seriously. Prospects: Got a clerkship in 1L summer, and 2L summer will be easier because I know more people. I somehow met all the goals I set coming into school, but what I would tell myself in hindsight is that you don't know what law school is all about until you actually do it.

Would you mind telling us your class rank? Thanks!

I think L&C should take the approach that many other schools do in not ranking students, so on principle I'm not the right guy to ask. I'm happy with my grades, I'm happy with the opportunities I have.

[un-vordox]

Hi there! Thanks much for the questions. I’m a 2L now, was 100% on the environmental road coming into law school, but since opportunities have expanded since being here, so have my interests. I’m a little cautious [reading above] of telling my experience because I might not represent everyone. I think you write your own story here for the most part. People here are pretty friendly and nice, not hard to get to know people of all levels. I haven't seen anyone puff themselves up or cut others down ever. Not being yourself is probably the easiest way to not be trusted or taken seriously. Prospects: Got a clerkship in 1L summer, and 2L summer will be easier because I know more people. I somehow met all the goals I set coming into school, but what I would tell myself in hindsight is that you don't know what law school is all about until you actually do it.

Would you mind telling us your class rank? Thanks!

I think L&C should take the approach that many other schools do in not ranking students, so on principle I'm not the right guy to ask. I'm happy with my grades, I'm happy with the opportunities I have.

First of all, thank you for sharing all of this information. Please do not think that I don't appreciate your participation here, because I do.

However, class rank matters to me for one reason: it matters to employers. Your opportunities are dependent on your grades and rank. As much as you might not like it to be so, you are competing with your classmates, and your success has everything to do with the outcome. I'm only curious so I can gauge your success in comparison with the rest of your class.

With all that said, I respect your decision not to post your rank. I just disagree with your opinion.

[horsesrule2006]

I’m a Lewis & Clark student myself & I wanted to maybe offer a different view. I think y'all deserve the same positive experience I had when I chose L&C back and I’m happy to answer a few questions if there are any. And just to say, I don't speak with authority, just someone who's willing to talk.

I'm interested equally in L&C and UO. From what I have heard both have great environmental law programs. UO is cheaper, which is nice, but L&C is higher up on the top schools list. So here is my question: in your opinion or from what you've heard, how much does the rank of the school matter in terms of getting a job? (And I mean small differences in the ranking. Obviously Harvard vs somewhere small matters.)
THanks!

Hi! And thanks too for the questions. I'm lucky to know people at all three law schools in Oregon, and have visited each campus. I have to say each has its own character as well as culture. U of O has a very nice campus, and they host the Public Interest Environmental Law Conference each year, so that's kinda cool. They recently got a new dean, I think--but that's probably the limit of what I know other than anecdotes from my friends.

L&C's profs are excellent. They are good at teaching, many are experts in their field, and they have high expectations (you WILL be challenged). The campus is also amazing (I'm watching the snow fall on the forest trees outside the library window now).

How much does a rank matter in terms of a job? In both what I've heard from many practitioners is they know far less than you about rankings. Sure, they have a vague idea that some schools are better at training people for certain areas of law. Big law firms care if you've got good grades and are willing to work unreal hours. The Oregon market seems to consider L&C applicants before others, and L&C career services is extremely active in getting students and alums integrated into the legal market. But above all this general stuff, if you get out there and talk to people, you will have an easier time, period. Networking > other factors. Eugene is a bit out of they way for networking, but I did see some U of O grads do very well it in the Portland market as well. Hope that helps a little.

Thanks! That does help (:

[kid-a]

Hi there! Thanks much for the questions. I’m a 2L now, was 100% on the environmental road coming into law school, but since opportunities have expanded since being here, so have my interests. I’m a little cautious [reading above] of telling my experience because I might not represent everyone. I think you write your own story here for the most part. People here are pretty friendly and nice, not hard to get to know people of all levels. I haven't seen anyone puff themselves up or cut others down ever. Not being yourself is probably the easiest way to not be trusted or taken seriously. Prospects: Got a clerkship in 1L summer, and 2L summer will be easier because I know more people. I somehow met all the goals I set coming into school, but what I would tell myself in hindsight is that you don't know what law school is all about until you actually do it.

Would you mind telling us your class rank? Thanks!

I think L&C should take the approach that many other schools do in not ranking students, so on principle I'm not the right guy to ask. I'm happy with my grades, I'm happy with the opportunities I have.

First of all, thank you for sharing all of this information. Please do not think that I don't appreciate your participation here, because I do.

However, class rank matters to me for one reason: it matters to employers. Your opportunities are dependent on your grades and rank. As much as you might not like it to be so, you are competing with your classmates, and your success has everything to do with the outcome. I'm only curious so I can gauge your success in comparison with the rest of your class.

With all that said, I respect your decision not to post your rank. I just disagree with your opinion.

I'm just saying what I think based on the way the school has changed me. I used to get charged up more than most over numbers, especially my own. But once I got to know people better, once I got to understand how arbitrary grades are , I stopped talking numbers. The path to a job isn't earned by numbers alone. The numbers may get you an interview, they never get you the job.

Corporate law firms do screen applicants on a certain threshold, but after that everyone's equal and then you're competing based on everything except numbers. More students at L&C aim at public interest and government, so those screens aren't the way employers look at applicants.

And it always matters who you get to know. People will take a chance on a person they know & want to work with, and almost never hire strangers no matter how good you look on paper. My experience is that I get the job first, and the paperwork and process is just the confirmation. Again, this is just talking from where I stand. If I can say anything, it's just do your best, and do what you say you will.

[un-vordox]

Would you mind telling us your class rank? Thanks!

I think L&C should take the approach that many other schools do in not ranking students, so on principle I'm not the right guy to ask. I'm happy with my grades, I'm happy with the opportunities I have.

First of all, thank you for sharing all of this information. Please do not think that I don't appreciate your participation here, because I do.

However, class rank matters to me for one reason: it matters to employers. Your opportunities are dependent on your grades and rank. As much as you might not like it to be so, you are competing with your classmates, and your success has everything to do with the outcome. I'm only curious so I can gauge your success in comparison with the rest of your class.

With all that said, I respect your decision not to post your rank. I just disagree with your opinion.

I'm just saying what I think based on the way the school has changed me. I used to get charged up more than most over numbers, especially my own. But once I got to know people better, once I got to understand how arbitrary grades are , I stopped talking numbers. The path to a job isn't earned by numbers alone. The numbers may get you an interview, they never get you the job.

Corporate law firms do screen applicants on a certain threshold, but after that everyone's equal and then you're competing based on everything except numbers. More students at L&C aim at public interest and government, so those screens aren't the way employers look at applicants.

And it always matters who you get to know. People will take a chance on a person they know & want to work with, and almost never hire strangers no matter how good you look on paper. My experience is that I get the job first, and the paperwork and process is just the confirmation. Again, this is just talking from where I stand. If I can say anything, it's just do your best, and do what you say you will.

Thanks for elaborating. I'd love to be able to think like that. Maybe after 1L.

[Ginj]

This is the response I received re: scholarship request:

Congratulations on being admitted! Our committee appreciates your determination and continued interest in Lewis & Clark and were excited to offer you admission this year! Unfortunately, you didn't qualify for scholarship when reviewed by our admissions committee. Still, I'll take your request to them and see if they will take another look while they still have funds. I can't promise they'll grant you an award, and if they do, it wouldn't be similar to the one you were offered by [comparable school], but it doesn't hurt to ask. I'll be in touch again tomorrow or Thursday with what the committee decides.

Will let everyone know how it turns out. Not optimistic.

Conveniently ignoring the conversation on previous pages...

[corvid]

I got a tease letter in the mail today, about how files are under review. I already knew mine is, so this was rough. LC is by far my #1 so I feel like I have everything to lose. Gah!

[Lawbound1122]

I received the same letter! Thank goodness I still have a strong heart, almost had an infarct!

[naw]

This is the response I received re: scholarship request:

Congratulations on being admitted! Our committee appreciates your determination and continued interest in Lewis & Clark and were excited to offer you admission this year! Unfortunately, you didn't qualify for scholarship when reviewed by our admissions committee. Still, I'll take your request to them and see if they will take another look while they still have funds. I can't promise they'll grant you an award, and if they do, it wouldn't be similar to the one you were offered by [comparable school], but it doesn't hurt to ask. I'll be in touch again tomorrow or Thursday with what the committee decides.

Will let everyone know how it turns out. Not optimistic.

Conveniently ignoring the conversation on previous pages...

Thanks for posting this! Looks like there's a pretty small (read: microscopic) window to negotiate, but at least they're considering it. I'm still waiting on a decision, unfortunately.

[holden147]

Anyone going to the ASW in March?

[Ginj]

Anyone going to the ASW in March?

I RSVP'd yesterday.

[horsesrule2006]

I received the same letter! Thank goodness I still have a strong heart, almost had an infarct!

When did you apply?

[llachans]

I don't want to book a $400 plane ticket to Oregon in March without getting an acceptance, but I also don't want to wait it out and have the prices increase even more.

160/3.50. I'm bound to get into either L&C or U Oregon...most likely. Right? (I don't want to be overly confident and then end up going to Oregon for no reason.)

[Lawbound1122]

I received the same letter! Thank goodness I still have a strong heart, almost had an infarct!

When did you apply?

I applied 11/17... You?

[kid-a]

[/quote]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 0VkE#gid=0
[/quote]

I hadn't seen this data before, but since I have had contact with local firms, I wanted to maybe flesh out the data a bit to the stories that lie behind them. Some of the newest associates hired at those firms I know, and they were special people who knew how to network. Really nice, you'd want to work with them--and they got awesome letters of recommendation not just because they were competent, but they offered more than grades. I think they were good examples of what I was trying to say earlier: grades got them the interview, but it was who they were that got them the job.

I'd also argue the data are also incomplete, because it leaves out other coveted paths, like clerkships. Many got those. Those can actually increase your value when you enter the market, and because career services is constantly hosting events to invite judges on campus, there are a lot of opportunities to get close to them if you want, both federal and state.

Another way the data are skewed is that at least one of the firms won't even look at you if you don't have a Ph.D. or some other specific criterion they screen on that isn't mentioned in the chart, even if you are #1 in your class at Yale. Some criteria are less in your control, and calculations about your likelihood of getting a job don't get you a job. Those L&C grads who were hired were people who got out, networked, and built those relationships to get hired.

Sorry if I'm hammering, but I think it's the best advice I can give, because I want my future classmates to succeed as lawyers. If you get in, you already have what it takes to succeed in school. Wish that was enough.

[corvid]

I hadn't seen this data before, but since I have had contact with local firms, I wanted to maybe flesh out the data a bit to the stories that lie behind them. Some of the newest associates hired at those firms I know, and they were special people who knew how to network. Really nice, you'd want to work with them--and they got awesome letters of recommendation not just because they were competent, but they offered more than grades. I think they were good examples of what I was trying to say earlier: grades got them the interview, but it was who they were that got them the job.

I'd also argue the data are also incomplete, because it leaves out other coveted paths, like clerkships. Many got those. Those can actually increase your value when you enter the market, and because career services is constantly hosting events to invite judges on campus, there are a lot of opportunities to get close to them if you want, both federal and state.

Another way the data are skewed is that at least one of the firms won't even look at you if you don't have a Ph.D. or some other specific criterion they screen on that isn't mentioned in the chart, even if you are #1 in your class at Yale. Some criteria are less in your control, and calculations about your likelihood of getting a job don't get you a job. Those L&C grads who were hired were people who got out, networked, and built those relationships to get hired.

Sorry if I'm hammering, but I think it's the best advice I can give, because I want my future classmates to succeed as lawyers. If you get in, you already have what it takes to succeed in school. Wish that was enough.

I'm all for advice from someone more along the path than myself, lay it on us!

[horsesrule2006]

I received the same letter! Thank goodness I still have a strong heart, almost had an infarct!

When did you apply?

I applied 11/17... You?

Oct 25

[horsesrule2006]

My status checker just changed to today's date so hopefully that means I"ll hear something soon!

[rinkrat19]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 0VkE#gid=0

I hadn't seen this data before, but since I have had contact with local firms, I wanted to maybe flesh out the data a bit to the stories that lie behind them. Some of the newest associates hired at those firms I know, and they were special people who knew how to network. Really nice, you'd want to work with them--and they got awesome letters of recommendation not just because they were competent, but they offered more than grades. I think they were good examples of what I was trying to say earlier: grades got them the interview, but it was who they were that got them the job.

I'd also argue the data are also incomplete, because it leaves out other coveted paths, like clerkships. Many got those. Those can actually increase your value when you enter the market, and because career services is constantly hosting events to invite judges on campus, there are a lot of opportunities to get close to them if you want, both federal and state.

Another way the data are skewed is that at least one of the firms won't even look at you if you don't have a Ph.D. or some other specific criterion they screen on that isn't mentioned in the chart, even if you are #1 in your class at Yale. Some criteria are less in your control, and calculations about your likelihood of getting a job don't get you a job. Those L&C grads who were hired were people who got out, networked, and built those relationships to get hired.

Sorry if I'm hammering, but I think it's the best advice I can give, because I want my future classmates to succeed as lawyers. If you get in, you already have what it takes to succeed in school. Wish that was enough.

I'm the one who collected that data, by hand, from the websites of all the Portland NALP firms. It was never intended to show anything beyond A)the teeny tiny size of the Portland biglaw job market and B)which schools tend to get the jobs. (On a personal level, I was wondering if a Portland native with a lower T14 JD was likely to get hired, or if all the jobs went to the 3 Oregon schools. But I figured the data would be interesting to people looking at it from other angles as well.)

Yes, there is at least one IP firm in the list. Even I, who don't know most of the firms by name or reputation, can tell that when I'm looking at the list of associates and every single one has an engineering degree or hard science graduate degree. I honestly can't remember which firm it is, because I was so focused on busting through the whole NALP list.

I didn't "exclude" the clerkship path; it just wasn't relevant to the info I was trying to show. Some of the data points listed very well may people who clerked before taking their Portland biglaw job. They don't stay clerks forever, obviously. The only clerks that would be "excluded" from the data would be ones from the most recent grad years who are still clerking before taking a biglaw firm job. So, a very few data points from the past 2 grad classes, say.

ETA: Klarquist Sparkman is an IP firm. But since its hiring numbers by school roughly follow the same trends as the other firms, I still think it's valid data. Just know that you'd need the additional qualifications required for IP.

[kid-a]

I had to laugh at myself when I read your reply because of how law school, especially law review, has changed me. The moment that I saw something in quotes, I immediately looked for a source, and when I couldn't find it, I just didn't know what to do. The words “exclude” and "excluded," each in quotes, don't have a source, so as tough as it is, I just have to let it go, lol.

The forum has much to thank you for in going through the effort to put that data together, because without the data, there’s no story to tell, no prompt to discuss. Having a technical background myself, I enjoy data not for its own sake, but because it’s a chance to interpret, qualify, analyze, etc. That’s what all of our legal minds will (hopefully) be trained to do more precisely.

The key words I did use regarding the data were “incomplete” and “skewed.” Between your words and mine, I think the forum has been filled in regarding some of those gaps, as you qualified that you were not attempting to explain the entire legal market, just a slice.
Many lawyers here have told me repeatedly that you don’t really know where you’ll get your start, and more often it’s circuitous despite your focused efforts to get yourself to one place directly.

The story doesn’t end, even here. But thanks very much for providing the springboard for more thoughts and discussion.

[un-vordox]

Between your words and mine, I think the forum has been filled in

+1

Thanks!