Chicago c/o 2016 Applicants (2012-2013) Forum

[Rahviveh]

law schools will not be impressed by you having been admitted to other law schools.

Are you saying in terms of scholarship negotiations?

I hope not, because that's completely wrong.

Grapefruits, none of the reasons you stated are compelling enough to pass up on tens of thousands of dollars. Actually for a couple of them you sound like you're trying to be funny.

As for your example - I don't know your personal situation, while you are right that CLS and UCHI with the SAME offers probably doesn't grant you the additional leverage, this is not a position that anyone is in right now since neither school has released financial aid except for the named schollies (and with those the point is moot).

Also a wait list is different - although I'd still just stay on the wait list just in case. Some people are withdrawing without even getting decisions back.

Perhaps none of the reasons I stated are compelling enough to pass up on "tens of thousands of dollars," I guess that depends though. However, more importantly, you are assuming that an acceptance is worth tens of thousands of dollars, or that an acceptance + scholarship is worth tens of thousands of dollars. Like I said, when coupled with a number of other acceptances and scholarships, I fail to see how it adds anything.

Since I like to try and read opposing arguments fairly, something that people seem to have a very difficult time doing, I will assume that what you are actually claiming is not that an additional acceptance is worth tens of thousands of dollars, but an additional acceptance to a peer/better ranked school, with a larger scholarship, may be worth tens of thousands of dollars. That could be true, it also could be false, it also could be a condition that doesn't obtain. If you want to wait around for that possibility, unsure of what you will do, gum up the system for your peers, deal with the eternal pain of rejection, then that's fine; some people don't mind, others might. I find myself in the latter camp.

ETA: As far as the schools not being impressed with admission to other schools, I meant as an accolade. They don't care. It isn't a plus one. Personally, I think to interpret what I said differently is stupid.

It depends on which schools. Its not about impressing them. If you get into HYS you almost certainly can use that as leverage.

I didn't assume anything. If you leave your app open its possible you'll get aid. If you withdraw you almost certainly won't. How is this so hard to understand? Even if its just an extra 15,000, which in the grand scheme of law school isn't much, its 15k you basically got for free by just not withdrawing.

Whatever dude. If you really can't handle the "pain of rejection" then just withdraw. You're probably one of the few who care about that. For the rest of us, there is absolutely no benefit and only downside to withdrawing.

[grapefruits]

Even if its just an extra 15,000, which in the grand scheme of law school isn't much, its 15k you basically got for free by just not withdrawing.

I think you're confused. Getting 15k at a school you don't enroll at is actually the equivalent to getting nothing. You'd have to be able to leverage 15k with it. Given OP's situation, doesn't seem likely. Given my situation with Penn and Berkeley, didn't seem likely either. If you remember, you said, you don't understand why anyone would withdraw, I simply gave you some reasons. Anyhow, I'll see you at Chicago, all the while totally regretting having lost 15k as a result of withdrawing from Penn and Berkeley.

[Rahviveh]

Even if its just an extra 15,000, which in the grand scheme of law school isn't much, its 15k you basically got for free by just not withdrawing.

I think you're confused. Getting 15k at a school you don't enroll at is actually the equivalent to getting nothing. You'd have to be able to leverage 15k with it. Given OP's situation, doesn't seem likely. Given my situation with Penn and Berkeley, didn't seem likely either. If you remember, you said, you don't understand why anyone would withdraw, I simply gave you some reasons. Anyhow, I'll see you at Chicago, all the while totally regretting having lost 15k as a result of withdrawing from Penn and Berkeley.

Ummmm the OP only had 37.5k from NYU. It wouldn't take much from Chicago to be able to use that as leverage. With OP's numbers a larger amount is not unreasonable. Have I ever said that he will DEFINITELY get money and be able to leverage it? No. I just said its possible and you're making it impossible if you withdraw. You can go through last years threads and see plenty of successful cases of scholarship negotiation within CCN. And withdrawing has no benefit dude. You can't be serious with that pain of rejection crap.

[Lavitz]

Even if its just an extra 15,000, which in the grand scheme of law school isn't much, its 15k you basically got for free by just not withdrawing.

I think you're confused. Getting 15k at a school you don't enroll at is actually the equivalent to getting nothing. You'd have to be able to leverage 15k with it. Given OP's situation, doesn't seem likely. Given my situation with Penn and Berkeley, didn't seem likely either. If you remember, you said, you don't understand why anyone would withdraw, I simply gave you some reasons. Anyhow, I'll see you at Chicago, all the while totally regretting having lost 15k as a result of withdrawing from Penn and Berkeley.

Ok, I'm going to jump in now. It may not have seemed likely in OP's case, but it was still possible. I went easy on him originally because he was already withdrew and I actually didn't want to start this very debate--which we already had in the Cornell thread. But I still think it was possible for UChi to offer him maybe 60K. Columbia hasn't given him an offer yet, so if they end up offering him nothing, he has no leverage from either C to take back to NYU and convince them to bump up his offer. Again, we'll never know since he withdrew.

Now, in your defense, I actually do understand why someone would withdraw early to end the uncertainty because I've felt that temptation myself. Right now, Duke is sending out scholly offers up to 120K. Based on the time I submitted my financial aid form, I probably won't find out my offer until late March. I have an April 1st deadline to accept my Cornell offer and withdraw my apps from all other schools to which I've been admitted. I'm happy with the Cornell offer but I'd honestly have a very difficult decision deciding between the two schools. So yes, part of me wants to just withdraw from Duke prematurely so that I don't have to end up in that position. If they do make that offer, I'd actually have to spend time and money traveling to Durham--possibly before I even receive any offer--just so I could be ready to make the decision. So that's a definite cost incurred over a small possibility of a benefit.

Same thing with the Chicago waitlist. If I want a strong chance of getting off with $$, I have a feeling I'm going to have to actually visit the school in mid-April and write a strong LOCI about my trip. Again, incurring a cost for the small chance of an improvement in my situation. So yes, sometimes I just feel like cashing in my chips and walking away from the table. I don't because of the reasons ChampagnePapi has listed, but I understand why some people may want to withdraw prematurely in certain situations.

Maybe jbagelboy didn't feel the small chance at an extra 15K from NYU was worth the time spent doing the interview and the time spent fretting about a decision, playing hardball with NYU's financial aid office, whatever. People value things differently and that's fine. I think the issue started when he said he "knew" Chicago wouldn't offer him more than NYU. Maybe they would have. And maybe he still wouldn't care. I think we're just trying to make sure future applicants consider all the possible outcomes before walking away. That's all.

I know Chicago students love to argue about ideas, but there's no need to start insulting each other imo.

[Rahviveh]

Yeah like I said I didn't mean to pick on bagelboy, he's having a good cycle and should be fine wherever he goes. But future applicants should not be so quick to withdraw.

And you are wrong lavitz! Ideas are important and worth fighting for! Both verbally and if necessary, physically lol, that's how we plan to get down in HP

[Crowing]

I know Chicago students love to argue about ideas, but there's no need to start insulting each other imo.

Well now we know why Lavitz got WLed. He's too reasonable and level-headed for the rest of us. I mean that with no sarcasm and all the love in the world

[mambar]

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[20141023]

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[grapefruits]

Even if its just an extra 15,000, which in the grand scheme of law school isn't much, its 15k you basically got for free by just not withdrawing.

I think you're confused. Getting 15k at a school you don't enroll at is actually the equivalent to getting nothing. You'd have to be able to leverage 15k with it. Given OP's situation, doesn't seem likely. Given my situation with Penn and Berkeley, didn't seem likely either. If you remember, you said, you don't understand why anyone would withdraw, I simply gave you some reasons. Anyhow, I'll see you at Chicago, all the while totally regretting having lost 15k as a result of withdrawing from Penn and Berkeley.

Ummmm the OP only had 37.5k from NYU. It wouldn't take much from Chicago to be able to use that as leverage. With OP's numbers a larger amount is not unreasonable. Have I ever said that he will DEFINITELY get money and be able to leverage it? No. I just said its possible and you're making it impossible if you withdraw. You can go through last years threads and see plenty of successful cases of scholarship negotiation within CCN. And withdrawing has no benefit dude. You can't be serious with that pain of rejection crap.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you just aren't reading anything I wrote, and not having 0 RC skills; you're accusing me of saying things I didn't and arguing against a position I didn't make. If you think I don't understand that there is a possibility for leverage, once again, you're a dipshit. Maybe in law school you'll realize not to argue against straw men. As for now, enjoy it.

[Crowing]

Even if its just an extra 15,000, which in the grand scheme of law school isn't much, its 15k you basically got for free by just not withdrawing.

I think you're confused. Getting 15k at a school you don't enroll at is actually the equivalent to getting nothing. You'd have to be able to leverage 15k with it. Given OP's situation, doesn't seem likely. Given my situation with Penn and Berkeley, didn't seem likely either. If you remember, you said, you don't understand why anyone would withdraw, I simply gave you some reasons. Anyhow, I'll see you at Chicago, all the while totally regretting having lost 15k as a result of withdrawing from Penn and Berkeley.

Ummmm the OP only had 37.5k from NYU. It wouldn't take much from Chicago to be able to use that as leverage. With OP's numbers a larger amount is not unreasonable. Have I ever said that he will DEFINITELY get money and be able to leverage it? No. I just said its possible and you're making it impossible if you withdraw. You can go through last years threads and see plenty of successful cases of scholarship negotiation within CCN. And withdrawing has no benefit dude. You can't be serious with that pain of rejection crap.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you just aren't reading anything I wrote, and not having 0 RC skills; you're accusing me of saying things I didn't and arguing against a position I didn't make. If you think I don't understand that there is a possibility for leverage, once again, you're a dipshit. Maybe in law school you'll realize not to argue against straw men. As for now, enjoy it.

??? I read both of your posts and I have no idea what you're talking about in this one. The only thing he's directly "accusing" you of saying is "pain of rejection." It also looks like he's arguing that there aren't any good reasons to withdraw, which seems to run pretty counter to your position of not wanting to wait, take up a spot, or get rejected as being good reasons.

[JamesDean1955]

Wow, can't believe y'all are arguing over when to withdraw.

If you're completely sure of where you want to attend, have met your scholarship target or have reason to believe you will meet it and/or the school you're withdrawing from would not help you negotiate with your #1 in any way ---> withdraw.

Otherwise you're passing up money on the table.

This altruism crap may sound good, but there is no evidence to suggest your withdrawing actually frees up anything for anyone (because schools use formulas to anticipate this, multiple people would have to do this on a large scale for this to work), and if you withdraw for solely altruistic reasons and pass up the chance of money on the table, that doesn't make you any less of an idiot.

[goCATSgo]

Wow, can't believe y'all are arguing over when to withdraw.

If you're completely sure of where you want to attend, have met your scholarship target or have reason to believe you will meet it and/or the school you're withdrawing from would not help you negotiate with your #1 in any way ---> withdraw.

Otherwise you're passing up money on the table.

This altruism crap may sound good, but there is no evidence to suggest your withdrawing actually frees up anything for anyone (because schools use formulas to anticipate this, multiple people would have to do this on a large scale for this to work), and if you withdraw for solely altruistic reasons and pass up the chance of money on the table, that doesn't make you any less of an idiot.

+1

Altruism is a myth. At least in law school.

[shntn]

Hear, hear.

[grapefruits]

It seemed to me as if I were being accused of not being able to understand that one may be able to leverage an additional acceptance/scholly, and as for the straw man thing, he was ignoring the peace of mind thing which honestly very well may be worth a possibility of saving a few thousand dollars. It's really not that absurd, it's a matter of preference.

[banjo]

We haven't even had ASW yet -- how can you be so sure you'd pick C or N or another T14 over Chicago?

Surprised that someone would even have to ask that question. East Coast preference/(bias?) is paramount, and that coulda/shoulda been learned when applying to undergrad. Many folks will pay (a lot) more to attend school in NYC. It's why NYU & Fordham get away with poor finaid for undergrads, for example.

If the applicants have the $$, why not?

I can also think of reasons why people wouldn't attend Chicago -- three exam periods instead of two, graded LRW, grading system with very fine distinctions, reputation for rigor. But these seem like deciding factors at the margin to me. After all, Chicago can get you NYC summer work and biglaw just as easily as NYU. I just wanted to see if jbagelboy had a spouse or something that made his situation exceptional.

eta: Anyway, this issue is over. But I believe all future applicants should be required to justify their choice -- in writing -- to all of us strangers on the internet before withdrawing.

[JamesDean1955]

We haven't even had ASW yet -- how can you be so sure you'd pick C or N or another T14 over Chicago?

Surprised that someone would even have to ask that question. East Coast preference/(bias?) is paramount, and that coulda/shoulda been learned when applying to undergrad. Many folks will pay (a lot) more to attend school in NYC. It's why NYU & Fordham get away with poor finaid for undergrads, for example.

If the applicants have the $$, why not?

I can also think of reasons why people wouldn't attend Chicago -- three exam periods instead of two, graded LRW, grading system with very fine distinctions, reputation for rigor. But these seem like deciding factors at the margin to me. After all, Chicago can get you NYC summer work and biglaw just as easily as NYU. I just wanted to see if jbagelboy had a spouse or something that made his situation exceptional.

eta: Anyway, this issue is over. But I believe all future applicants should be required to justify their choice -- in writing -- to all of us strangers on the internet before withdrawing.

And what we strangers say, goes. Although we might allow an appeals process

[HankBashir]

Re: withdrawing for altruistic purposes,

From my understanding of the process, the main way your withdrawal helps somebody else is if you withdraw before you're accepted, which I can understand under certain situations.

Withdrawing after you're accepted, in general, helps if their yield is lower than anticipated and they have to pull from the WL (or reserve for some schools). Withdrawing post acceptance doesn't necessarily open a spot from somebody else, since schools always admit more than they know will matriculate (with the occasional exception if a higher than expected yield).

[grapefruits]

Re: withdrawing for altruistic purposes,

From my understanding of the process, the main way your withdrawal helps somebody else is if you withdraw before you're accepted, which I can understand under certain situations.

Withdrawing after you're accepted, in general, helps if their yield is lower than anticipated and they have to pull from the WL (or reserve for some schools). Withdrawing post acceptance doesn't necessarily open a spot from somebody else, since schools always admit more than they know will matriculate (with the occasional exception if a higher than expected yield).

To add to this: Cornell asks admitted students to withdraw as soon as they are sure they will not attend as a courtesy to their fellow applicants. They could be lying because it makes things easier for them, but they could be telling the truth. All in all I'd bet Cornell knows a bit more about law school admissions than a bunch of forum trolls.

[JamesDean1955]

Re: withdrawing for altruistic purposes,

From my understanding of the process, the main way your withdrawal helps somebody else is if you withdraw before you're accepted, which I can understand under certain situations.

Withdrawing after you're accepted, in general, helps if their yield is lower than anticipated and they have to pull from the WL (or reserve for some schools). Withdrawing post acceptance doesn't necessarily open a spot from somebody else, since schools always admit more than they know will matriculate (with the occasional exception if a higher than expected yield).

To add to this: Cornell asks admitted students to withdraw as soon as they are sure they will not attend as a courtesy to their fellow applicants. They could be lying because it makes things easier for them, but they could be telling the truth. All in all I'd bet Cornell knows a bit more about law school admissions than a bunch of forum trolls.

Regardless of whether it does actually impact anything (I don't think it does as HankBashir said above), everything in my post still stands. If Cornell is not your first choice but could be used as a negotiating tool, it makes no sense to withdraw. Withdrawing for the sole purpose of making things easier for adcomms (and hurting yourself in the process) is just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And if you're that fragile that you need peace of mind that badly to give up $$ and avoid your idiotic "pain of rejection" bullshit, you should seriously reconsider law school.

/Done debating this.

[Big Dog]

Re: withdrawing for altruistic purposes,

From my understanding of the process, the main way your withdrawal helps somebody else is if you withdraw before you're accepted, which I can understand under certain situations.

Withdrawing after you're accepted, in general, helps if their yield is lower than anticipated and they have to pull from the WL (or reserve for some schools). Withdrawing post acceptance doesn't necessarily open a spot from somebody else, since schools always admit more than they know will matriculate (with the occasional exception if a higher than expected yield).

Yes, of course, their estimated yield does come into play. But if a lot of folks withdraw in February, the college can then make more offers in March, and not have to string folks along into late April and beyond.

Regardless of whether it does actually impact anything (I don't think it does as HankBashir said above), everything in my post still stands. If Cornell is not your first choice but could be used as a negotiating tool, it makes no sense to withdraw. Withdrawing for the sole purpose of making things easier for adcomms (and hurting yourself in the process) is just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And if you're that fragile that you need peace of mind that badly to give up $$ and avoid your idiotic "pain of rejection" bullshit, you should seriously reconsider law school.

/Done debating this.

Not sure anyone is debating you. Others are just pointing out rational (read: personal) reasons for themselves to withdraw. Just because you disagree with their personal reasons doesn't make it a debate. Again, there are many on TLS that would choose NYC over Chicago 99 times out of a hundred, and would pay more to live in Manhattan. Heck, I would imagine that many would also choose Penn over Chicago, for geographic purposes. That is a personal choice, but not a debate.

[JamesDean1955]

^^Actually if you read back through the last couple pages of this thread, there has been an underlying debate between ChampagnePapi and grapefruits as to why and when a person should withdraw. While of course it will depend on individual circumstances, my point (a point ChampagnePapi brought up) is that if a school can be used for negotiation purposes, but is not your first choice, it is NOT in your best interests to withdraw.

I took this a step further by saying that going against one's interests to serve altruistic purposes is just plain dumb (because it's likely to have no effect, and even if it does, you should be concerned with getting the most $$ you can above all else).

[grapefruits]

Re: withdrawing for altruistic purposes,

From my understanding of the process, the main way your withdrawal helps somebody else is if you withdraw before you're accepted, which I can understand under certain situations.

Withdrawing after you're accepted, in general, helps if their yield is lower than anticipated and they have to pull from the WL (or reserve for some schools). Withdrawing post acceptance doesn't necessarily open a spot from somebody else, since schools always admit more than they know will matriculate (with the occasional exception if a higher than expected yield).

To add to this: Cornell asks admitted students to withdraw as soon as they are sure they will not attend as a courtesy to their fellow applicants. They could be lying because it makes things easier for them, but they could be telling the truth. All in all I'd bet Cornell knows a bit more about law school admissions than a bunch of forum trolls.

Regardless of whether it does actually impact anything (I don't think it does as HankBashir said above), everything in my post still stands. If Cornell is not your first choice but could be used as a negotiating tool, it makes no sense to withdraw. Withdrawing for the sole purpose of making things easier for adcomms (and hurting yourself in the process) is just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And if you're that fragile that you need peace of mind that badly to give up $$ and avoid your idiotic "pain of rejection" bullshit, you should seriously reconsider law school.
[/quote.]


You know a lot about being in law school? That's very cute. The pain of rejection thing was a joke, the peace of mind thing was serious, but it has nothing to do with fragility, it has to do with liking to know what I'll be doing. Once again a statement/question was raised about what reasons one might have for withdrawing, I gave some. That's great if you think they're stupid. I don't even think anyone solicited your opinion, so the whole "done with this debate thing" is kind of funny/embarrassing .

[elterrible78]

^^Actually if you read back through the last couple pages of this thread, there has been an underlying debate between ChampagnePapi and grapefruits as to why and when a person should withdraw. While of course it will depend on individual circumstances, my point (a point ChampagnePapi brought up) is that if a school can be used for negotiation purposes, but is not your first choice, it is NOT in your best interests to withdraw.

I took this a step further by saying that going against one's interests to serve altruistic purposes is just plain dumb (because it's likely to have no effect, and even if it does, you should be concerned with getting the most $$ you can above all else).

It's kind of funny that this clear misunderstanding that people have different utility functions is happening in a Chicago thread.

[grapefruits]

^^Actually if you read back through the last couple pages of this thread, there has been an underlying debate between ChampagnePapi and grapefruits as to why and when a person should withdraw. While of course it will depend on individual circumstances, my point (a point ChampagnePapi brought up) is that if a school can be used for negotiation purposes, but is not your first choice, it is NOT in your best interests to withdraw.

I took this a step further by saying that going against one's interests to serve altruistic purposes is just plain dumb (because it's likely to have no effect, and even if it does, you should be concerned with getting the most $$ you can above all else).

It's kind of funny that this clear misunderstanding that people have different utility functions is happening in a Chicago thread.

Stupid people are everywhere, or rather singularly focused people who doNt understand the concept of reasonable disagreement are everywhere. That being said, it is my understanding that jamesdeen was not actually admitted to Chicago. I could be wrong though, but I don't care much.

ETA: iPhone autocorrect type things

[MacB]

I have definitely withdrawn from at least one school's waitlist for almost no other reason than the increased peace of mind associated with having one less option/distraction on the table in this stressful process. I have also ridden it out with certain schools in hopes of getting a $$$ offer that I can leverage for a better offer from schools that I am more interested in attending, and in at least one case that seems to have been the right call. I don't require that my cycle be optimized in terms of outcomes, I only want it to be bearable and a success by my own subjective standards. We're not in class right now guys... sometimes we can make certain life decisions just based on feel. Just my .02, I don't specifically agree or disagree w/ anything that anyone may or may not have said above me.