International Applicants 2014-15 Forum

[jawsjawsjaws]

Looking at the spreadsheet right now, and I'm thinking, why are y'all so smart???

[pylon]

Looking at the spreadsheet right now, and I'm thinking, why are y'all so smart???

+180. TLS is killing it with high scoring internationals it seems.

[nyanyanya]

Great spreadsheet! Could we add years of work experience as a column (I tried but couldn't figure out how to get rid of the dropdown menu options )

I removed the data validation. You can fill in the year# for WE now.

[musedreverie]

Looking at the spreadsheet right now, and I'm thinking, why are y'all so smart???

As for me, not smart--just worked hard for it (around 4-5 months of near full-time studying!!) because without GPA, figured I'd either sink or float on my LSAT score alone. I've read it's more like 3 months of studying for people taking LSATs in the US right? If you guys had longer time to spend on LSAT, the scores would improve

[musedreverie]

While it may not be oxbridge material, I would rank the sort of leadership skills you can learn at a North Korean university as "highly unique"

LOL true dat

A curriculum consisting of Tyranny 101, Anti-Americanization Studies 101 (while the Fat One uses Apple Mac to place ICBMs against the Western world) and all that.

All in all, somehow, I get the feeling that their leaders took Leviathan too seriously:(

[appind]

i am not sure why it would be harder either, but looks like it typically is from the past threads. we only contribute to schools' lsat score, but it doesn't automatically mean that they assume median gpas for us. perhaps in some cases it is more important for them to bring their 25% gpa number up than no contribution to gpa.

congrats on nyu
numbers?

Well, I've heard something along the lines of the prestige of your undergrad institution/subject you studied are important for foreign undergrads... because they don't have much to go on otherwise. I suppose it makes sense; an above average at Oxford PPE looks more promising than a superior at an obscure North Korean university degree in Leadership Studies despite both not impacting their GPA medians in any way.

But it's such a blackbox for us international students, there's not much nothing we can do after we reach/pass the 75th LSAT percentile mark of our target schools. no need to make the wait-game more worrying, in fear of being stigmatised because we're international.

what's your source about the prestige/subject mattering more for internationals than domestics? it seems to me that don't have much to go on even for domestic applicants, at least from what i have heard on this forum. they don't account for prestige/subject at all for domestics and there is a wide range of difference in gpas and competitiveness of undergrad colleges in US.

you are right that it's much more blackbox for us. but some of the stories of internationals in past threads seems to suggest that they don't perform as well as a domestic applicant with similar lsat.

i'd think that they may prefer superior with somewhat unique leadership studies at the obscure university over an above average at oxbridge. An above average may well be below cutoff at hys, however arbitrary this criterion may be.

[appind]

Looking at the spreadsheet right now, and I'm thinking, why are y'all so smart???

i wondered about that the whole day at work today. those numbers looks amazing.

[musedreverie]

what's your source about the prestige/subject mattering more for internationals than domestics? it seems to me that don't have much to go on even for domestic applicants, at least from what i have heard on this forum. they don't account for prestige/subject at all for domestics and there is a wide range of difference in gpas and competitiveness of undergrad colleges in US.

you are right that it's much more blackbox for us. but some of the stories of internationals in past threads seems to suggest that they don't perform as well as a domestic applicant with similar lsat.

i'd think that they may prefer superior with somewhat unique leadership studies at the obscure university over an above average at oxbridge. An above average may well be below cutoff at hys, however arbitrary this criterion may be.

It's because they can't calculate the GPA inflation/deflation or whatever for foreign institutions, and as our GPAs don't matter anyway that they look to the reputation of the academic institution/courses.

But then again, I don't pretend to be an expert--this just comes from experience of friends. I have a few friends at my university (well-known in social sciences arena) who had 170 and ended up in Columbia and Stanford. On the other hand, I know other people with 172s from a rather unknown university from Korea with kick-ass GPAs (superior on LSAC eval) that ended up in Northwestern (which nevertheless is an amazing school, but not what one would expect from 172/ 4.0 student to end up in, without scholarship)

And I'm an above average, yet I managed to secure a JS1. Of course this does not mean I have a good chance at getting in (I'm waiting for the waitlist email to come, actually...), but I don't necessarily think above average is below the cut-off for HYS. The one who ended up in Stanford (and Columbia) had an Above Average too, anyway.

I don't think it's a good idea to say, right, let's put our clogs up then for xyz schools, because we're going to be shunned by them for being international or whatever.

[Hand]

See pages 1 and 2 for some comments from a former dean of admissions on the "importance of your foreign undergrad" question http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=236530

While this is groundless speculation, I would think that while it will presumably help if your undergrad degree comes from a university that adcomms have heard of (which will probably be a very restricted number of uni's -- oxford, cambridge, LSE, ...), beyond that it may well not matter too much.

[AOT]

Wow the internationals on this sheet are intimidating!

[AOT]

what's your source about the prestige/subject mattering more for internationals than domestics? it seems to me that don't have much to go on even for domestic applicants, at least from what i have heard on this forum. they don't account for prestige/subject at all for domestics and there is a wide range of difference in gpas and competitiveness of undergrad colleges in US.

you are right that it's much more blackbox for us. but some of the stories of internationals in past threads seems to suggest that they don't perform as well as a domestic applicant with similar lsat.

i'd think that they may prefer superior with somewhat unique leadership studies at the obscure university over an above average at oxbridge. An above average may well be below cutoff at hys, however arbitrary this criterion may be.

It's because they can't calculate the GPA inflation/deflation or whatever for foreign institutions, and as our GPAs don't matter anyway that they look to the reputation of the academic institution/courses.

But then again, I don't pretend to be an expert--this just comes from experience of friends. I have a few friends at my university (well-known in social sciences arena) who had 170 and ended up in Columbia and Stanford. On the other hand, I know other people with 172s from a rather unknown university from Korea with kick-ass GPAs (superior on LSAC eval) that ended up in Northwestern (which nevertheless is an amazing school, but not what one would expect from 172/ 4.0 student to end up in, without scholarship)

And I'm an above average, yet I managed to secure a JS1. Of course this does not mean I have a good chance at getting in (I'm waiting for the waitlist email to come, actually...), but I don't necessarily think above average is below the cut-off for HYS. The one who ended up in Stanford (and Columbia) had an Above Average too, anyway.

I don't think it's a good idea to say, right, let's put our clogs up then for xyz schools, because we're going to be shunned by them for being international or whatever.

That's interesting to read. I thought a 170 and an above average pretty much took me out of the running for HYSC. Was there any correlation to softs or WE that you know of?

[musedreverie]

See pages 1 and 2 for some comments from a former dean of admissions on the "importance of your foreign undergrad" question http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=236530

Hi, there. As you will see above, I provided a lengthy response to give a clearer picture as to how the admissions review process - the "investigative process" as I termed it - works and how each component plays a part in it. The same principles are going to apply for foreign-educated applicants, i.e., the committee will be asking the same questions, but they may have to go about getting the answers a little differently and perhaps dig a bit further. The overarching questions are always the same: can this applicant perform well at this school (is there evidence in the file that supports that) and will she bring a valuable perspective to the classroom and law school community? And the burden is on the applicant to fill in missing pieces of information, i.e., to anticipate questions and provide the answers. Yes, the committee will absolutely assess the quality of a foreign undergraduate institution. Now, keep in mind, I am speaking from the perspective of having worked at a top 10 school. Applicants who are foreign-educated are more common at the top schools, and many of the admissions deans and faculty at these schools have been there for many years. They are experts. They are already familiar with many of the schools. They know what to look for. They know that the tone of LORs from foreign professors may be different. Aside from that, the top law schools all have robust LLM programs and solid international programs in place; thus, there are resources (namely, faculty) to provide insight as to the quality of an applicant's undergraduate institution or program, his language skills and writing ability, and LORs. An admissions officer is not going to make a decision based on LSAT and/or the LSAC evaluation alone. These applications get the same thorough review, so they are not at a disadvantage. But going back to my point about the burden being on the applicant to anticipate questions and provide answers: your recommenders could certainly comment on the rigor of your program and/or quality of your school. You may need to guide your recommenders a bit in this regard; be proactive and ask them to include that. You could also provide information in an addendum that sheds additional light on your academic record, language skills, etc. Of course the essays you submit will play a pivotal role in showing how well you write and how effectively you articulate the perspective you would bring, your academic interests, and career goals.

Just quoting this in case anyone finds it hard/are lazy to search through. Anyway, that was a good read; just what I expected though. I think for a foreign applicant, the law schools will look to the quality of school/course (and of course, the LSAC eval) just because that along with LSAT is what they have to go on with to judge the academic ability of the student. I'm not saying that law schools are particularly suspicious towards foreign institutions; I think they look to these qualities of schools because there are no real objective ways to assess qualities of students from universities/countries the adcomms had no experience with.

While this is groundless speculation, I would think that while it will presumably help if your undergrad degree comes from a university that adcomms have heard of (which will probably be a very restricted number of uni's -- oxford, cambridge, LSE, ...), beyond that it may well not matter too much.

And yeah, I was restricting my answer to the top universities when I was referring to the academic quality/reputation of the universities--hence the Oxford PPE example teehee.

[jawsjawsjaws]

I think mused reverie deserves a JS2

[musedreverie]

But then again, I don't pretend to be an expert--this just comes from experience of friends. I have a few friends at my university (well-known in social sciences arena) who had 170 and ended up in Columbia and Stanford. On the other hand, I know other people with 172s from a rather unknown university from Korea with kick-ass GPAs (superior on LSAC eval) that ended up in Northwestern (which nevertheless is an amazing school, but not what one would expect from 172/ 4.0 student to end up in, without scholarship).

That's interesting to read. I thought a 170 and an above average pretty much took me out of the running for HYSC. Was there any correlation to softs or WE that you know of?

Can't really go into details (not sure they'd want me to... sorry) but vaguely, the ones from my school both had good education from middle school through to uni level (from the UK), but no proper WE that I know of besides short stints here and there in form of internships (from think-tanks, NGOs and government research institutes etc.). Both were from EU countries (not the UK).

The one who ended up in Northwestern had an amazing and unique WE/softs. Not just random leadership roles at university, but really unique.

About Above Average- I think it might be slightly unfair for people from universities/countries that are really stingy in their grading system (e.g. Hong Kong, Germany, etc.) One of the smartest persons I've ever met was a German student doing his masters at my undergrad institution and he told me he had his undergrad transcript from a German university processed by the LSAC, which came back as Above Average even though he graduated top of his class with second-best classification 'gut'. (Apparently no one ever gets the highest classification?) But then again, c'est la vie I suppose...

[AOT]

But then again, I don't pretend to be an expert--this just comes from experience of friends. I have a few friends at my university (well-known in social sciences arena) who had 170 and ended up in Columbia and Stanford. On the other hand, I know other people with 172s from a rather unknown university from Korea with kick-ass GPAs (superior on LSAC eval) that ended up in Northwestern (which nevertheless is an amazing school, but not what one would expect from 172/ 4.0 student to end up in, without scholarship).

That's interesting to read. I thought a 170 and an above average pretty much took me out of the running for HYSC. Was there any correlation to softs or WE that you know of?

Can't really go into details (not sure they'd want me to... sorry) but vaguely, the ones from my school both had good education from middle school through to uni level (from the UK), but no proper WE that I know of besides short stints here and there in form of internships (from think-tanks, NGOs and government research institutes etc.). Both were from EU countries (not the UK).

The one who ended up in Northwestern had an amazing and unique WE/softs. Not just random leadership roles at university, but really unique.

About Above Average- I think it might be slightly unfair for people from universities/countries that are really stingy in their grading system (e.g. Hong Kong, Germany, etc.) One of the smartest persons I've ever met was a German student doing his masters at my undergrad institution and he told me he had his undergrad transcript from a German university processed by the LSAC, which came back as Above Average even though he graduated top of his class with second-best classification 'gut'. (Apparently no one ever gets the highest classification?) But then again, c'est la vie I suppose...

I guess this just means international cycles are pretty unpredictable if you're a borderline candidate. The fact your NW friend had such amazing softs makes that outcome even stranger in comparison to your other example.

[yc820]

what's your source about the prestige/subject mattering more for internationals than domestics? it seems to me that don't have much to go on even for domestic applicants, at least from what i have heard on this forum. they don't account for prestige/subject at all for domestics and there is a wide range of difference in gpas and competitiveness of undergrad colleges in US.

you are right that it's much more blackbox for us. but some of the stories of internationals in past threads seems to suggest that they don't perform as well as a domestic applicant with similar lsat.

i'd think that they may prefer superior with somewhat unique leadership studies at the obscure university over an above average at oxbridge. An above average may well be below cutoff at hys, however arbitrary this criterion may be.

It's because they can't calculate the GPA inflation/deflation or whatever for foreign institutions, and as our GPAs don't matter anyway that they look to the reputation of the academic institution/courses.

But then again, I don't pretend to be an expert--this just comes from experience of friends. I have a few friends at my university (well-known in social sciences arena) who had 170 and ended up in Columbia and Stanford. On the other hand, I know other people with 172s from a rather unknown university from Korea with kick-ass GPAs (superior on LSAC eval) that ended up in Northwestern (which nevertheless is an amazing school, but not what one would expect from 172/ 4.0 student to end up in, without scholarship)

And I'm an above average, yet I managed to secure a JS1. Of course this does not mean I have a good chance at getting in (I'm waiting for the waitlist email to come, actually...), but I don't necessarily think above average is below the cut-off for HYS. The one who ended up in Stanford (and Columbia) had an Above Average too, anyway.

I don't think it's a good idea to say, right, let's put our clogs up then for xyz schools, because we're going to be shunned by them for being international or whatever.

Congrats on the JS1!
Did the interviewer ask anything specific about being international if you don't mind me asking?

[musedreverie]

Congrats on the JS1!
Did the interviewer ask anything specific about bein international if you don't mind me asking?

No I don't mind at all, but the interviewer didn't say anything about my international status or anything related to it...

Chicago was more curious about those things though.. 'why undergrad institution/subject/ why not law school in your country/do you want to work in the US after law school etc.'

[musedreverie]

I think mused reverie deserves a JS2

lol sorry to bore you guys with the long posts

[jawsjawsjaws]

I think mused reverie deserves a JS2

lol sorry to bore you guys with the long posts

I enjoy reading your posts! Didn't mean to sound sarcastic

[Hand]

Congrats on the JS1!
Did the interviewer ask anything specific about bein international if you don't mind me asking?

No I don't mind at all, but the interviewer didn't say anything about my international status or anything related to it...

Chicago was more curious about those things though.. 'why undergrad institution/subject/ why not law school in your country/do you want to work in the US after law school etc.'

Ditto for me with the JS1. The interview is also only 15 mins so there is only so much you can talk about.

[appind]

how long did you prep for js1? were the questions similar to what they are typically known to ask?

[yc820]

I found this in the 2012 int'l thread

"This is a good one because the concept also applies to students from US schools that don't grade (e.g. Evergreen St. in Washington is one I used to get at Idaho a lot) or students with LSATs taken with accommodations. Grades and scores in these situations are not included in the calculations for the ABA and USNWR rankings.

For internationally educated students, especially those from non-English speaking countries, schools are going to put more emphasis on the LSAT and writing, both essay AND LSAT sample, because most of us aren't going to really be familiar with how rigorous your undergraduate education was. If your English is weak, law school is going to be very difficult. By the same token though, the LSAT is going to be difficult if your English is weak so a high score tends to suggest the applicant can make it in law school. The writing is used in the same way. The LSAT writing sample for non-native English speakers and foreign applicants is scrutinized very closely by many reviewers because we never know how much help one had in writing their personal statement. I have seen many applications where the PS was OK, but the LSAT writing was really bad, leading us to wonder about the PS and their true ability level.

Dean Perez"

This is from Texas Tech but I guess many other schools do the same.

I bombed my writing because I was exhausted after the previous five sections and now it came back:/

[pylon]

I bombed my writing because I was exhausted after the previous five sections and now it came back:/

I think everyone would be exhausted after five sections, and I'm sure they take that into account.

Also the full quote from Dean Perez is a good find, thanks!

[Hand]

Now that all 509's are available, I've created a spreadsheet compiling the information about (1) matriculants without a GPA and (2) non-resident aliens for the T14. See here for the spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

With this information, you can generate the following rankings of how international-friendly schools are:

T14 ranked by percentage of matriculants without a GPA

01. Cornell University (NY)
02. Georgetown (DC)
03. Northwestern University (IL)
04. University of Michigan
05. Duke University (NC)
06. University of California Berkeley
07. Harvard University (MA)
08. University of Chicago
09. Columbia University (NY)
10. Stanford University (CA)
11. New York University
12. Yale University (CT)
13. University of Virginia
14. University of Pennsylvania

T14 ranked by the percentage of non-resident aliens in total student body

1 Cornell University (NY)
2 Columbia University (NY)
3 Harvard University (MA)
4 Duke University (NC)
5 Northwestern University (IL)
6 New York University
7 University of Chicago
8 Yale University (CT)
9 University of California Berkeley
10 Georgetown (DC)
11 University of Michigan
12 University of Pennsylvania
13 Stanford University (CA)
14 University of Virginia

Way to go, Cornell!

ETA: added this to the OP

[pylon]

Wow that's some impressive stuff hereisonehand...

Is the difference between those without GPA's and non-resident aliens just Canadians and internationals who studied in America?