Harvard C/O 2019 Applicants Forum

[Indifference]

.

[Tls2016]

My concern was that I read your post as greatly over exaggerating the benefit of just going to Harvard or Yale instead of taking one of the most prestigious scholarships in the country at Columbia.
I was genuinely interested in what employment data led you to that conclusion particularly as you implied dire consequences if below media at Columbia,but no issues from Harvard. I have not seen any employment data suggesting that is the case at all.
My take is that most grads are going to end up in biglaw anyway for the money and for the credentials. So paying more to end up in the same place is foolish.

I don't know that such employment data, as interesting as it would actually be, exists. Schools publish their overall employment data, but there likely is not a source that breaks down job outcomes based on median grades. In that regard, everything is anecdotal. But, as far as anecdotal goes, I have found TLS to be a great source for getting feedback from current students. I don't believe that there is much a chance of you coming out of Columbia unemployed even at the bottom of the class; they have 98% employment, so that's obviously not the case. However, raw employment data doesn't tell the whole story, and not all legal jobs are created equal. So, and again basing this on conversations rather than data, I believe that someone below median at Harvard will have a better job outcome, in whatever they choose to pursue, than someone below median at Columbia. It's no secret that the top firms, government agencies, and PI organizations reach deeper into the HYS candidate pool than they do to CCN. I doubt the idea that the average person at the 25th percentile at Columbia will end up at the same job as the average person at the 25th percentile at Harvard; they might do the same kind of work and maybe even make the same money, but I'll bet there will be some difference in outcome (prestige, QoL, connections for partner down the line, ability to lateral or transfer to PI/government, etc.), and it will favor the Harvard student towards the bottom of the class. Personally, based on what I've read, I think it's more significant than just that, but at the end of the day I'm still a 0L trying to sort through this muck like everyone else, and my impression of things, while founded in what I've read, is my own.

I agree that if biglaw is your goal, you would be foolish to go to Yale or Harvard over taking a Hammy or Ruby. But if you look at the breakdown of Yale's employment statistics for new graduates, only 36% are going to law firms. The kind of person who gets in to Yale (80+% of whom will end up going) are simply not as interested in doing Biglaw as the average CLS, or even HLS student. That could be because the school itself guides its students away from that path while they are there, but I think its more likely that they simply aren't as interested in the first place. Harvard is a little bit more law firm heavy (about 58%), but I think that simply due to the size of the school, there are going to be more students there than at Yale who didn't have to turn down a Hammy or Ruby to make the choice to attend. The higher you go, the less biglaw-oriented the students become. Furthermore, these statistics only track the first year of employment, and not five or ten years down the line; I would bet money that more people who go to HYS than CCN end up doing big law for a few years (to pay off debt) and then moving into a lower paying government or PI job.


But this is all missing the original intention of my post. I was not trying to demonstrate the inherent superiority of HYS over CCN, especially with a full ride on the table for the latter. The main question is whether or not there is a rational basis for turning such a fantastic offer down. Maybe you're correct, and the majority of people who choose Harvard over a Hamilton could have done well at CLS, and gotten the same or better outcome in biglaw with 200k more in the bank and (more importantly imo) many fewer years of debt floating over their heads. But there are definitely some people for whom what I wrote applies, whether because they are risk adverse, academically-inclined, or because they want the most prestigious jobs that HYS are simply superior in with regards to placement. At the end of the day, it's comes down to individual context.

I didn't mention unicorn jobs because I know nothing about them. My point, if you read my post, was that most people end up in biglaw and it's silly to get more in debt.

You may not realize it but Columbia is an extremely well regarded law school and the idea of many jobs existing that the extra debt for Harvard is worth it now, or down the line, such as partnership,is worth it, is not reality.

If you have a specific unicorn job you want, or if you want academia, then go to Harvard. You are talking about the difference based on a specific jobs and I'm talking about the typical job and career outcomes.

[downbeat14]

accidental duplicate...

[downbeat14]

I'd agree with a lot of what you said. I know getting the JS2 was just "different" than my Columbia acceptance. And my family would have murdered me if I'd turned it down (same first generation thing here).

That said, depending on your goals CCN (or any other T-14) can be a better choice. And, H or no 150-200k debt sucks. I didn't get a hammy, (Butler here), and H basically matched it with need aid so my financial decision was made for me, but I can't honestly say I would turn down a full ride. Even more true for the Ruby. These are not dumpster fires we are talking about here, it's the difference between H and other top schools in the country.

Would have gone to Y in a heartbeat (new haven be damned, the grading system is beautiful).

I do really like it at H, though, and so far I am happy about the choice I made. I dunno that I could have gone anywhere else (cept Y) and not wondered.

Yep all very fair. For me getting max need aid from H was a superior outcome to other T14s for free, but it's completely defensible to disagree. Very few ppl get a lot of need aid tho.

I didn't apply to Y, partly bc I would have taken H anyways and hate New Haven (worked there briefly) with passion. Although I know a few HLS 1Ls that chose H over Y, that's definitely the minority and I've talked to a few ppl here who readily admit they would have preferred Y--esp if u know u want to clerk or academia or insert-unicorn-job-here it makes a lot of sense.

[Li'l Sebastian]

Yep all very fair. For me getting max need aid from H was a superior outcome to other T14s for free, but it's completely defensible to disagree. Very few ppl get a lot of need aid tho.

I didn't apply to Y, partly bc I would have taken H anyways and hate New Haven (worked there briefly) with passion. Although I know a few HLS 1Ls that chose H over Y, that's definitely the minority and I've talked to a few ppl here who readily admit they would have preferred Y--esp if u know u want to clerk or academia or insert-unicorn-job-here it makes a lot of sense.

Hurray for growing up dirt poor!

[downbeat14]

Yep all very fair. For me getting max need aid from H was a superior outcome to other T14s for free, but it's completely defensible to disagree. Very few ppl get a lot of need aid tho.

I didn't apply to Y, partly bc I would have taken H anyways and hate New Haven (worked there briefly) with passion. Although I know a few HLS 1Ls that chose H over Y, that's definitely the minority and I've talked to a few ppl here who readily admit they would have preferred Y--esp if u know u want to clerk or academia or insert-unicorn-job-here it makes a lot of sense.

Hurray for growing up dirt poor!

The one time it really pays off lol

[Li'l Sebastian]

Yep all very fair. For me getting max need aid from H was a superior outcome to other T14s for free, but it's completely defensible to disagree. Very few ppl get a lot of need aid tho.

I didn't apply to Y, partly bc I would have taken H anyways and hate New Haven (worked there briefly) with passion. Although I know a few HLS 1Ls that chose H over Y, that's definitely the minority and I've talked to a few ppl here who readily admit they would have preferred Y--esp if u know u want to clerk or academia or insert-unicorn-job-here it makes a lot of sense.

Hurray for growing up dirt poor!

The one time it really pays off lol

Right?

Oh hey for everyone else thinking about financial aid! Did you all already fill out your FASFA and Need Access Application? Some schools have deadlines for that by the first week of February.

[voldypoo]

Yep all very fair. For me getting max need aid from H was a superior outcome to other T14s for free, but it's completely defensible to disagree. Very few ppl get a lot of need aid tho.

I didn't apply to Y, partly bc I would have taken H anyways and hate New Haven (worked there briefly) with passion. Although I know a few HLS 1Ls that chose H over Y, that's definitely the minority and I've talked to a few ppl here who readily admit they would have preferred Y--esp if u know u want to clerk or academia or insert-unicorn-job-here it makes a lot of sense.

Hurray for growing up dirt poor!

The one time it really pays off lol

Right?

Oh hey for everyone else thinking about financial aid! Did you all already fill out your FASFA and Need Access Application? Some schools have deadlines for that by the first week of February.

Turned mine in a few days ago! The Need Access App definitely took a fair amount of time, so if anyone hasn't started I'd definitely get on it.

Also just wanted to add on to the thank you's for downbeat14's post. It was very informative, and as a fellow "what if" wonderer, the post helped a lot. Hopefully one day I will be fortunate enough to make that kind of decision.

[johnlocke]

Does Harvard require Need Access? I couldn't find their name on the schools list.

[Li'l Sebastian]

Does Harvard require Need Access? I couldn't find their name on the schools list.

Their website says their application doesn't open up 'until' February! I couldn't find any of the Texas schools or Fordham or USC on the Need Access either.

[Timantha]

Their website says their application doesn't open up 'until' February! I couldn't find any of the Texas schools or Fordham or USC on the Need Access either.

Do you still have to turn in the Need Access by their deadline (does anyone know when the deadline is?) if, god forbid, you're still waiting for the decision by then? Or should you only submit after actually being admitted?

[Li'l Sebastian]

Their website says their application doesn't open up 'until' February! I couldn't find any of the Texas schools or Fordham or USC on the Need Access either.

Do you still have to turn in the Need Access by their deadline (does anyone know when the deadline is?) if, god forbid, you're still waiting for the decision by then? Or should you only submit after actually being admitted?

Submit your application as soon as you can regardless of whether or not you are already accepted.

[Timantha]

Their website says their application doesn't open up 'until' February! I couldn't find any of the Texas schools or Fordham or USC on the Need Access either.

Do you still have to turn in the Need Access by their deadline (does anyone know when the deadline is?) if, god forbid, you're still waiting for the decision by then? Or should you only submit after actually being admitted?

Submit your application as soon as you can regardless of whether or not you are already accepted.

Ooh I see, thanks!

[cantorb]

My concern was that I read your post as greatly over exaggerating the benefit of just going to Harvard or Yale instead of taking one of the most prestigious scholarships in the country at Columbia.
I was genuinely interested in what employment data led you to that conclusion particularly as you implied dire consequences if below media at Columbia,but no issues from Harvard. I have not seen any employment data suggesting that is the case at all.
My take is that most grads are going to end up in biglaw anyway for the money and for the credentials. So paying more to end up in the same place is foolish.

I don't know that such employment data, as interesting as it would actually be, exists. Schools publish their overall employment data, but there likely is not a source that breaks down job outcomes based on median grades. In that regard, everything is anecdotal. But, as far as anecdotal goes, I have found TLS to be a great source for getting feedback from current students. I don't believe that there is much a chance of you coming out of Columbia unemployed even at the bottom of the class; they have 98% employment, so that's obviously not the case. However, raw employment data doesn't tell the whole story, and not all legal jobs are created equal. So, and again basing this on conversations rather than data, I believe that someone below median at Harvard will have a better job outcome, in whatever they choose to pursue, than someone below median at Columbia. It's no secret that the top firms, government agencies, and PI organizations reach deeper into the HYS candidate pool than they do to CCN. I doubt the idea that the average person at the 25th percentile at Columbia will end up at the same job as the average person at the 25th percentile at Harvard; they might do the same kind of work and maybe even make the same money, but I'll bet there will be some difference in outcome (prestige, QoL, connections for partner down the line, ability to lateral or transfer to PI/government, etc.), and it will favor the Harvard student towards the bottom of the class. Personally, based on what I've read, I think it's more significant than just that, but at the end of the day I'm still a 0L trying to sort through this muck like everyone else, and my impression of things, while founded in what I've read, is my own.

I agree that if biglaw is your goal, you would be foolish to go to Yale or Harvard over taking a Hammy or Ruby. But if you look at the breakdown of Yale's employment statistics for new graduates, only 36% are going to law firms. The kind of person who gets in to Yale (80+% of whom will end up going) are simply not as interested in doing Biglaw as the average CLS, or even HLS student. That could be because the school itself guides its students away from that path while they are there, but I think its more likely that they simply aren't as interested in the first place. Harvard is a little bit more law firm heavy (about 58%), but I think that simply due to the size of the school, there are going to be more students there than at Yale who didn't have to turn down a Hammy or Ruby to make the choice to attend. The higher you go, the less biglaw-oriented the students become. Furthermore, these statistics only track the first year of employment, and not five or ten years down the line; I would bet money that more people who go to HYS than CCN end up doing big law for a few years (to pay off debt) and then moving into a lower paying government or PI job.


But this is all missing the original intention of my post. I was not trying to demonstrate the inherent superiority of HYS over CCN, especially with a full ride on the table for the latter. The main question is whether or not there is a rational basis for turning such a fantastic offer down. Maybe you're correct, and the majority of people who choose Harvard over a Hamilton could have done well at CLS, and gotten the same or better outcome in biglaw with 200k more in the bank and (more importantly imo) many fewer years of debt floating over their heads. But there are definitely some people for whom what I wrote applies, whether because they are risk adverse, academically-inclined, or because they want the most prestigious jobs that HYS are simply superior in with regards to placement. At the end of the day, it's comes down to individual context.

I didn't mention unicorn jobs because I know nothing about them. My point, if you read my post, was that most people end up in biglaw and it's silly to get more in debt.

You may not realize it but Columbia is an extremely well regarded law school and the idea of many jobs existing that the extra debt for Harvard is worth it now, or down the line, such as partnership,is worth it, is not reality.

If you have a specific unicorn job you want, or if you want academia, then go to Harvard. You are talking about the difference based on a specific jobs and I'm talking about the typical job and career outcomes.

It's not just about unicorn jobs - even BigLaw jobs vary greatly in many issues as described beautifylly by beatdown and bearlyalive. I have quite a few friends in both HLS and Columbia, and the Harvard guys are much happier with the 2L SA jobs they landed than the Columbia students are. The longer you are out of school, the more the gap widens - the HYS preftige is incredibly strong when it comes to lateral transfers, making partner, and landing top GC jobs. This is especially true for future executive careers that may not be directly law-related, which is an option that anyone on this level should definitely keep an eye on (especially those interested in BigLaw jobs primarily for the big money).

TLS in general has a tendency to focus too much on the exact numbers and rankings, as opposed to the real-world job market. The full picture can only be gotten by extensive research from people who are actually going through the OCI process or are involved in the hiring process.

[Tls2016]

My concern was that I read your post as greatly over exaggerating the benefit of just going to Harvard or Yale instead of taking one of the most prestigious scholarships in the country at Columbia.
I was genuinely interested in what employment data led you to that conclusion particularly as you implied dire consequences if below media at Columbia,but no issues from Harvard. I have not seen any employment data suggesting that is the case at all.
My take is that most grads are going to end up in biglaw anyway for the money and for the credentials. So paying more to end up in the same place is foolish.

I don't know that such employment data, as interesting as it would actually be, exists. Schools publish their overall employment data, but there likely is not a source that breaks down job outcomes based on median grades. In that regard, everything is anecdotal. But, as far as anecdotal goes, I have found TLS to be a great source for getting feedback from current students. I don't believe that there is much a chance of you coming out of Columbia unemployed even at the bottom of the class; they have 98% employment, so that's obviously not the case. However, raw employment data doesn't tell the whole story, and not all legal jobs are created equal. So, and again basing this on conversations rather than data, I believe that someone below median at Harvard will have a better job outcome, in whatever they choose to pursue, than someone below median at Columbia. It's no secret that the top firms, government agencies, and PI organizations reach deeper into the HYS candidate pool than they do to CCN. I doubt the idea that the average person at the 25th percentile at Columbia will end up at the same job as the average person at the 25th percentile at Harvard; they might do the same kind of work and maybe even make the same money, but I'll bet there will be some difference in outcome (prestige, QoL, connections for partner down the line, ability to lateral or transfer to PI/government, etc.), and it will favor the Harvard student towards the bottom of the class. Personally, based on what I've read, I think it's more significant than just that, but at the end of the day I'm still a 0L trying to sort through this muck like everyone else, and my impression of things, while founded in what I've read, is my own.

I agree that if biglaw is your goal, you would be foolish to go to Yale or Harvard over taking a Hammy or Ruby. But if you look at the breakdown of Yale's employment statistics for new graduates, only 36% are going to law firms. The kind of person who gets in to Yale (80+% of whom will end up going) are simply not as interested in doing Biglaw as the average CLS, or even HLS student. That could be because the school itself guides its students away from that path while they are there, but I think its more likely that they simply aren't as interested in the first place. Harvard is a little bit more law firm heavy (about 58%), but I think that simply due to the size of the school, there are going to be more students there than at Yale who didn't have to turn down a Hammy or Ruby to make the choice to attend. The higher you go, the less biglaw-oriented the students become. Furthermore, these statistics only track the first year of employment, and not five or ten years down the line; I would bet money that more people who go to HYS than CCN end up doing big law for a few years (to pay off debt) and then moving into a lower paying government or PI job.


But this is all missing the original intention of my post. I was not trying to demonstrate the inherent superiority of HYS over CCN, especially with a full ride on the table for the latter. The main question is whether or not there is a rational basis for turning such a fantastic offer down. Maybe you're correct, and the majority of people who choose Harvard over a Hamilton could have done well at CLS, and gotten the same or better outcome in biglaw with 200k more in the bank and (more importantly imo) many fewer years of debt floating over their heads. But there are definitely some people for whom what I wrote applies, whether because they are risk adverse, academically-inclined, or because they want the most prestigious jobs that HYS are simply superior in with regards to placement. At the end of the day, it's comes down to individual context.

I didn't mention unicorn jobs because I know nothing about them. My point, if you read my post, was that most people end up in biglaw and it's silly to get more in debt.

You may not realize it but Columbia is an extremely well regarded law school and the idea of many jobs existing that the extra debt for Harvard is worth it now, or down the line, such as partnership,is worth it, is not reality.

If you have a specific unicorn job you want, or if you want academia, then go to Harvard. You are talking about the difference based on a specific jobs and I'm talking about the typical job and career outcomes.

It's not just about unicorn jobs - even BigLaw jobs vary greatly in many issues as described beautifylly by beatdown and bearlyalive. I have quite a few friends in both HLS and Columbia, and the Harvard guys are much happier with the 2L SA jobs they landed than the Columbia students are. The longer you are out of school, the more the gap widens - the HYS preftige is incredibly strong when it comes to lateral transfers, making partner, and landing top GC jobs. This is especially true for future executive careers that may not be directly law-related, which is an option that anyone on this level should definitely keep an eye on (especially those interested in BigLaw jobs primarily for the big money).

TLS in general has a tendency to focus too much on the exact numbers and rankings, as opposed to the real-world job market. The full picture can only be gotten by extensive research from people who are actually going through the OCI process or are involved in the hiring process.

The full picture is best seen by talking to grads in biglaw jobs who are working to pay off their debt, not people still in school who haven't even finished their SA. The Harvard 2Ls at biglaw firms this summer will be working alongside Columbia 2Ls, they will both be in the same place, doing the same job for the same salary. There isn't this huge cavernous divide between the two schools.

Look, I posted in this thread because of the statement that taking a Harvard at full tuition was a better call than taking the Hamilton. The reasoning was that below median students at Columbia struggle while you "are set for life if you walk through the door at Harvard or Yale."

The difference in debt and the impact debt has on your future career is a significant factor that shouldn't be ignored. That, and the unquestioned hyperbole about the difference between the career outcomes between the two schools, is what prompted me to post.

I realize this is the Harvard thread and I wish all of you good luck. My hope is that everyone will carefully and realistically assess the cost and any debt they may have to borrow when making a decision.

[Li'l Sebastian]

You know, after all this waiting and pondering I'm beginning to wonder if I actually do get a JS2, will it even feel as amazing as I imagine it will?

I'm picturing just a moment of pure terror as I look down and see the 617 area code and just a gigantic jolt of energy shoots through my spine. As I hit the green button on my phone my eyes go wide and my pupils dilate as I hear the most beautiful words in the human language, "Welcome to Harvard Law School..." Then I wake up in a cold sweat to find myself laying in a dumpster behind a 7-eleven realizing that the past few years of working on building up my law school application had actually just been a drug fueled fugue state.

[jetsfan1]

You know, after all this waiting and pondering I'm beginning to wonder if I actually do get a JS2, will it even feel as amazing as I imagine it will?

I'm picturing just a moment of pure terror as I look down and see the 617 area code and just a gigantic jolt of energy shoots through my spine. As I hit the green button on my phone my eyes go wide and my pupils dilate as I hear the most beautiful words in the human language, "Welcome to Harvard Law School..." Then I wake up in a cold sweat to find myself laying in a dumpster behind a 7-eleven realizing that the past few years of working on building up my law school application had actually just been a drug fueled fugue state.

What jumped to my mind when I read the bolded lol

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQHrgXeDqYk[/youtube]

ETA: I don't know how to make the youtube thing work. Eh, whatever

[Dcc617]

Code: Select all

[youtube]gQHrgXeDqYk[/youtube]

[youtube]gQHrgXeDqYk[/youtube]

[Li'l Sebastian]

So I only slept for a few hours but that didn't stop me from having two admissions decision nightmares that seemed so real that I had to go to the bathroom and splash myself with water to try to convince myself they didn't really happen last night. I think I need to stop obsessing so hard over this.
At what point does the anxious nervousness become insanity?

(Probably shouldn't have drank three cups of coffee right before bed, that might explain this)

[EnderWiggin]

So I only slept for a few hours but that didn't stop me from having two admissions decision nightmares that seemed so real that I had to go to the bathroom and splash myself with water to try to convince myself they didn't really happen last night. I think I need to stop obsessing so hard over this.
At what point does the anxious nervousness become insanity?

(Probably shouldn't have drank three cups of coffee right before bed, that might explain this)

this sounds worse than LSAT nightmares. Thoughts and prayers are w/ you

also though I am a devout devotee, no caffeinated coffee in the last few hours before you plan to go to bed is tcr

[ypbravo]

Yep all very fair. For me getting max need aid from H was a superior outcome to other T14s for free, but it's completely defensible to disagree. Very few ppl get a lot of need aid tho.

I didn't apply to Y, partly bc I would have taken H anyways and hate New Haven (worked there briefly) with passion. Although I know a few HLS 1Ls that chose H over Y, that's definitely the minority and I've talked to a few ppl here who readily admit they would have preferred Y--esp if u know u want to clerk or academia or insert-unicorn-job-here it makes a lot of sense.

Hurray for growing up dirt poor!

The one time it really pays off lol

Right?

Oh hey for everyone else thinking about financial aid! Did you all already fill out your FASFA and Need Access Application? Some schools have deadlines for that by the first week of February.

Turned mine in a few days ago! The Need Access App definitely took a fair amount of time, so if anyone hasn't started I'd definitely get on it.

Also just wanted to add on to the thank you's for downbeat14's post. It was very informative, and as a fellow "what if" wonderer, the post helped a lot. Hopefully one day I will be fortunate enough to make that kind of decision.

Were you able to turn in need access for HLS? I can't find their name on the school list.

[QuentonCassidy]

So I only slept for a few hours but that didn't stop me from having two admissions decision nightmares that seemed so real that I had to go to the bathroom and splash myself with water to try to convince myself they didn't really happen last night. I think I need to stop obsessing so hard over this.
At what point does the anxious nervousness become insanity?

(Probably shouldn't have drank three cups of coffee right before bed, that might explain this)

There are a small number of people on tls whose JS2 I am looking forward to almost as much as my own. You, my friend, are one of those people.
(And after seeing your post I am hoping even more that yours comes very soon haha)

[Li'l Sebastian]

There are a small number of people on tls whose JS2 I am looking forward to almost as much as my own. You, my friend, are one of those people.
(And after seeing your post I am hoping even more that yours comes very soon haha)

Oh wow, that just made my Sunday!!!

Hopefully the wait will be over for us within the next week!

[pittsburghpirates]

Hopefully the wait will be over for us within the next week!

This goes for those of us (me included) who are still waiting for JS1s!

[Li'l Sebastian]

Hopefully the wait will be over for us within the next week!

This goes for those of us (me included) who are still waiting for JS1s!

Aye aye captain corgi!

Good juju all around.