Seton Hall Forum

[holydonkey]

Sorry for intruding on your thread, but I'm originally from NJ and both my folks live there and I've been watching the Christie argument itt. I'm not a liberal, did not vote for Corzine (and certainly not McGreevy), and would just like to add to the group saying Chris Christie is a worthless do-nothing pile of %*&^&. I wish NJ could find a decent governor.

[Always Credited]

I wish New Jersey would cease to exist.

[publiusjr]

he is doing what no one hand the balls to do for years. He is taking on unions. Teachers and state employees unions have done the same damage to this state that the automotive union has done to detroit. Unions are suppose to represent their workers best interest but often have crooks at the top.

[holydonkey]

he is doing what no one hand the balls to do for years. He is taking on unions. Teachers and state employees unions have done the same damage to this state that the automotive union has done to detroit. Unions are suppose to represent their workers best interest but often have crooks at the top.

Have to disagree. As someone whose parents are in the teacher's union and who went to university on a scholarship from my grandfather's work in the carpenter's union, unions are the best thing going in NJ. My parents aren't rich, far from it. After working as teachers for more than 30 years, I will likely make more than their current combined income when I graduate (If I can find a job ), but they love their job and they love their kids. My grandfather built his house with his own hands and helped build the houses of his friends in his union. My family has lived in New Jersey since it was a colony, working in unions as fishermen and whalers, and I can tell you if you want to find the corrupt *%&*^* ruining the state, look no further than Christie and his cronies in Trenton.

[publiusjr]

what is corrupt about Christie? He got convictions on 180 politicians in both parties as a US Attorney. You are missing my point. I am not attacking individual teachers but when the average cost to educate a student in NJ is 17k. Something is wrong. In newark it is 22k per student and they cant graduate 50% of students. Money doesnt fix all problems. Christie has been governor 5 months. Thus, he cannot be blamed for the situation in Trenton.

[bernie shmegma]

I think he was saying cut the police forces in nice, wealthy suburban town, not the war zones of Camden, Newark and Trenton. NJ is becoming a red state? Watch Obama win by 20 points in 2012 once the economy is better

that is what i was saying. bernie, if we in the wealthy towns are net outpayers for towns like Irvington, thats going to exist either way. that doesnt justify a new cop car fleet every 3 or 4 years for ourselves, 3 dedicated cops for the school system, un-or-under-utilized town swat teams, etc. if we look at our net outflow to poor communities as a fixed cost state mandated and beyond our control, we can still bring total cost down, by reducing our own services, and one that i see as obvious is the police forces in towns like mendham, millburn, randolph, madison, etc. i'd make that cut in favor of hiring more AP teachers every single day of the week.

lastly, i live in a place where education is truly not a right. where all the educational resources are divided up among the wealthy. i know for a fact that it stagnates a nations growth and is bad for a country. educations my big button issue for a reason. i see its effects everyday in an entirely different way than is possible from your chairs in america. don't get me wrong, i'm not criticizing any of you for that. i'm just trying to share one lesson i've taken away from living abroad for 2+ years. public education is the dividing line between the first world and the "third world" which is all too often not at all "developing"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02037.html

How is that relevant to Christie? What makes you think well off towns are not making local cuts already? Local cuts have certainly been made, but not enough to keep non-uber rich people from leaving wealthier towns. The economic scenario you've suggested would be an insufficient remedy to the woes of NJ. People don't want to pay ridiculous property taxes to cut their own services, but give even more as a percentage of their net worth to maintain other areas. The upper middle class is hurting relative to their lifestyle and they make up a lot of NJ, a lot of the economy, and revenue for the county and state. We need them to stick around for the long term education in NJ. In this message though you refer to local policy changes for those very same local communities (ie Cut police costs for AP teachers). That would be something to take up at a Town Hall meeting. Nevertheless, what you said doesn't pertain to the previous discussion about Christie, which is why I thought you couldn't have meant that.

I too think dodge chargers and night vision goggles for these towns are excessive. I would like to see people pay less, save more so they can give to charity or something for inner city kids once they accrue wealth. I SUPPOSE you could go so far as to say, well if people cut their own local services (excessive or not) and put that money towards poor towns, then Christie wouldn't have to cut state funds as much. This is a very progressive way of looking at things and suggests an even bigger redistributive principle than already exists. Its the type of fiscal policy that stunts growth and leads to poor policies that hurt economically, disincentivize people and help little in any absolute ways. Moreover, even if cuts to excessive programs are not already being made at the local level, who is to say how and where and at what point LOCAL funds for their OWN local communities should be allocated? This question is linked with the flight and disincentive problem, as well as property rights. Its already been happening enough, and we've gotten away with it for years and years. How much money was diluted in the process to help all of these kids get an education? You can't force charity upon Americans, nor is forcing charity via government coercion the most efficient way of providing services. The principle at hand here is getting very close to the idea of being so used to New Deal, civil rights, majoritarian entitlements that we no longer recognize fundamental principles, let alone the efficacy of the policies themselves. Again, I am not necessarily opposed to "diluting" money for the sake of education in neighborhoods that need it if it means helping these kids get an education even at high costs, but let's not forget the principles we are setting aside to make those exceptions in the first place. I understand people don't think in terms of charity, property rights, free markets, or institutional structure anymore. However, now the time calls for some prudence with the factors previously mentioned in mind. We need to cut the waste, malinvestments, and the social justice policies that got us in this mess in the first place. Christie can only do so much as governor now that the federal government has more and more jurisdiction over policy and revenue collection and the states are less autonomous (although maybe slightly moreso in recent decades compared to second half of 20th century). You want to talk about taking away from the local level? How about cutting the budget and taxes at the federal level? Let the state generate revenue and provide its own services. You got it upside down.

[publiusjr]

what I don't understand is how the poor keep voting for liberals. Do they think Nancy Pelosi hangs out with minorities. It is all social engineering. Your stupid, we will make decisions for you. I went to a high school where at times I was the only white kid in some classes. Black kids are not inferior in anyway but they dont get the resources. The school got millions yet the school was falling apart and the books were old. African Americans are a battered wife to the liberals. The liberals ignore them and treat them like crap but when voting day comes, they are right there. it is sad. Look at all the cities that have Democratic/liberal machines. Kansas City, Detroit, Chicago, Newark, Trenton, Philly, etc. The cities have been run into the ground and are unlivable in most places. Now, liberals are dead set on amnesty. Who gets affected? You guessed, african americans. There is actually black flight now. In La, there was rallies because african american teens can't get jobs at places like fast food restaurants anymore because they are hiring adults who are illegal. Grown men cant get factory or construction jobs. This is serious. Social engineering destroys lives. I have lived twice in europe. In Europe, no one has dreams, all they want to do is get a union job and then retire.

[Fef619]

RM, I asked my attorney dad who works in NJ (he is a RU-Cam grad) about that because I originally thought RU-N >>>>>>>>>> SHU and he said SHU slight > RU-N. I was shocked at it. Trust me. I do think that slight > is not worth $20,000/year. And the job prospects are exactly the same. It's all low-end stuff and by the time you are old (meaning 40's-ish) you can make about $80k/year if you are in the right job.

My father graduated from Harvard Law and he has hired Seton Hall grads, and they have done fine work. So I don't want to hear it.

[keg411]

RM, I asked my attorney dad who works in NJ (he is a RU-Cam grad) about that because I originally thought RU-N >>>>>>>>>> SHU and he said SHU slight > RU-N. I was shocked at it. Trust me. I do think that slight > is not worth $20,000/year. And the job prospects are exactly the same. It's all low-end stuff and by the time you are old (meaning 40's-ish) you can make about $80k/year if you are in the right job.

My father graduated from Harvard Law and he has hired Seton Hall grads, and they have done fine work. So I don't want to hear it.

That post is a year old and from when I first joined. I knew extremely little about pretty much every school except the T14 (and oddly enough, turns out my lawyer family knew absolutely nothing either). Things change, except the bolded; that part hasn't changed (and even moreso now). Getting a low-end job isn't worth the $$$ difference. Also, my dad isn't in BigLaw and would have no idea what BigLaw is looking for in terms of hiring or comparing the schools. It turns out it was just his opinion of SHU/RU was simple "lay prestige" not actual legal hiring information.

I do think since your dad is in BigLaw you can go anywhere and get a market job so none of the handwringing over jobs even applies to you. At a family friend's midlaw firm, one of the name partners went to Roger Williams because all he needed was a JD.

[bernie shmegma]

RM, I asked my attorney dad who works in NJ (he is a RU-Cam grad) about that because I originally thought RU-N >>>>>>>>>> SHU and he said SHU slight > RU-N. I was shocked at it. Trust me. I do think that slight > is not worth $20,000/year. And the job prospects are exactly the same. It's all low-end stuff and by the time you are old (meaning 40's-ish) you can make about $80k/year if you are in the right job.

My father graduated from Harvard Law and he has hired Seton Hall grads, and they have done fine work. So I don't want to hear it.

There's no difference between the two schools. People just know USNWR so that's where the "slight edge" comes from. That's a joke. SHU has more students who pay full boat from trust funds or parents than RU does. A lot of those kids didn't have the option between RU and SHU. So, SHU is going to attract an element who's career prospects don't matter where they go. One could argue that fact enhances the network at SHU and therefore its worth a smaller $$ difference at SHU. On the other hand, the two Newark schools are going to overlap with each other all over the place. Jersey ain't big, neither is Newark or its legal community with the 500 law students usually similar ages roaming around. There are certainly trade offs that depend on what's best for the person. In the end, I don't think ANYONE is worse off going to RU. It is more difficult to say whether anyone is better off going to either school.

$80K/year by the time you're 40?! ALL low-end stuff?! Maybe, I'll just become a NJ State Trooper... even after law school.

[keg411]

The 80k/year when your 40 thing is the most dead-on thing I said in that old post (and the other lawyers thought that was optimistic ). That's for all of us going to NJ T2's (be it RUN, RUC or SHU). Well except Feb619 and her/his Harvard BigLaw dad (and those with similar connections), and people who graduate in the Top 5-10%. The people on JDU/TTTHell or whatever those other boards/blogs are aren't that far off. Which made my decision to keep debt as low as humanely possible a very easy one.

[eagles86]

$80K a year after about 15 years in practice? Is this assuming you finish at the bottom of the class or something? That figure seems absurdly low and makes me more likely to take on the higher debt for UMiami, a school that at least owns its market and good prospects for the top half of the class. I understand if some firms start at $50K but $80K in your 40s seems absurd.

[keg411]

$80K a year after about 15 years in practice? Is this assuming you finish at the bottom of the class or something? That figure seems absurdly low and makes me more likely to take on the higher debt for UMiami, a school that at least owns its market and good prospects for the top half of the class. I understand if some firms start at $50K but $80K in your 40s seems absurd.

if you think it's any better in South Florida especially with MORE debt.

Did I enter the twilight zone all of a sudden? Seriously, this stuff if pretty common knowledge. Yes, the top students at lower ranked schools make bank (like I said, top 10%-ish), but everyone else will be hoping to start around $40k (if not less some parts of the country). Most of us won't hit 6 figures until the end of our careers (and we'll probably top out around 150k or so).

[eagles86]

Haha, well cost of living is a bit lower there. To be honest my folks are fairly well off and I dont have a penny of undergrad debt so I can afford to gamble a tiny bit more. Still, I'll need to take out loans..but I think the 80K is a bit pessimistic. That said I dont expect anything approaching 160K unless 90% of my classmates choose South Beach over studying.

[bernie shmegma]

$80K a year after about 15 years in practice? Is this assuming you finish at the bottom of the class or something? That figure seems absurdly low and makes me more likely to take on the higher debt for UMiami, a school that at least owns its market and good prospects for the top half of the class. I understand if some firms start at $50K but $80K in your 40s seems absurd.

She's wrong and it is absurd. If you're relying on JDunderground and lawyers you know, but don't categorize yourself as someone with similar connections (as in the people, not necessarily the type of relationship) as the Harvard dude, then I'd say you have a pretty bad sample your basing this "dead on" assessment with. $80K in the 40's is more like PI & government level pay. It is literally NJ State Trooper pay without benefits. I'm not even saying $80K is TERRIBLE to be making at 40 depending where you live and what your role in life is, nor am I saying it isn't prevalent. What I am saying though, is that your either wrong because you're not "dead on" or you have to expand your definition of "those types of connections" in addition to the percentage one finishes in a class at what your TLS-JDunderground-educated- self likes to call a "T2" school. If you'll notice they both mean you're wrong.

One could finish 25%, flourish in a clerkship (assuming they aren't set up with a job) with no life connections before hand and make more than $80K in NJ by age 30 after such an experience. People don't give a shit where you went and how you did once your in the market and do a good job. Now, does that clerkship count as "those types of connections?" Was that person not in the market that is ALL low-level jobs (except for your BigLaw kin and Order of the Coif from NJT2)? Did that person finish top 5-10%? Is that person younger than 40? Do you really think there aren't PLENTY of people just like the one I described even in this economy? How about an MSP/Minority program student? If they aren't top of the class and have BigLaw daddy connections, are they making $80K at 40?

[keg411]

"Those types of connections" = know people in BigLaw who will give you a job and it doesn't matter where you rank (i.e. Feb).
Most lawyers don't make that much money. Maybe 100k-150k/year maxed out towards the end. But I'm also talking jobs that don't consist of 90 hour work weeks and insane billable hours. This is actually what I thought being a lawyer was long before I knew about "BigLaw" and fancy firms and the like. Obviously I'm currently dreaming that I'll be in the Top 10% and get a great clerkship and a great job; but I don't want to be disappointed if that doesn't happen and I've seen that you can have a pretty good life even if it doesn't.

And Miami is expensive. Know from experience. COL is the same as the northeast if you rent and for going out (but if you have enough to buy a place you can get really nice condos for super cheap; at least right now since there are a ton of foreclosures). But go to Monty's for Happy Hour at least once on a Friday because it is made of win (and get a "Miami Vice" and the conch fritters!; they have some ultra ultra strong drinks as well called Painkillers that you can get Level I, II or III).

[eagles86]

"Those types of connections" = know people in BigLaw who will give you a job and it doesn't matter where you rank (i.e. Feb).
Most lawyers don't make that much money. Maybe 100k-150k/year maxed out towards the end. But I'm also talking jobs that don't consist of 90 hour work weeks and insane billable hours. This is actually what I thought being a lawyer was long before I knew about "BigLaw" and fancy firms and the like. Obviously I'm currently dreaming that I'll be in the Top 10% and get a great clerkship and a great job; but I don't want to be disappointed if that doesn't happen and I've seen that you can have a pretty good life even if it doesn't.

And Miami is expensive. Know from experience. COL is the same as the northeast if you rent and for going out (but if you have enough to buy a place you can get really nice condos for super cheap; at least right now since there are a ton of foreclosures). But go to Monty's for Happy Hour at least once on a Friday because it is made of win (and get a "Miami Vice" and the conch fritters!; they have some ultra ultra strong drinks as well called Painkillers that you can get Level I, II or III).

I think it's possible to find midlaw firms that pay a little more than $80K but I agree about the not wanting insane hours, something more than a simple 9-5 but less than 80 hours a week is what id prefer. And yes, I'll need many strong drinks at Miami!

[bernie shmegma]

Most lawyers don't make that much money.

Now that's better and much easier to defend.

[Fef619]

Most lawyers don't make that much money.

Now that's better and much easier to defend.

really comes down to what field one decides to pursue...but I say if your only ambition to study law is because of monetary reasons...pick a different profession...do it for the love of law

[bernie shmegma]

Most lawyers don't make that much money.

Now that's better and much easier to defend.

really comes down to what field one decides to pursue...but I say if your only ambition to study law is because of monetary reasons...pick a different profession...do it for the love of law

Agreed. I wasn't kidding either about the NJ State Trooper thing.

[inSouthAmerica]

"

The fact is Spanish is a third world language. Aside from Spain which Spanish speaking country is a world power, fully functioning democracy, a prosperous nation, etc. - publiusjr

ok you are right. it takes spain, mexico, argentina, and colombia to equal japans gdp. why bother with their language? enough people speak it already it already and i'm sure it'll be fine without us. its also not like american business owners might want to better communicate with their own employees. if they could show that statistically thered definitely be something written on it that i could easily find. i mean its 2010, and i dont have lexis nexis?


"What are you talking about with the collapse and adobe homes?" - publicusjr

also, to explain my comments about adobe housing. i'm sorry, i probably should have told you that i live in an adobe home...

annnnnnnnnnnnd.....

i believe that if you let the banks fail a title wave sweeps new york into the sea and that if anyone survives, they would have to to build an adobe house or some other nuts way of natural housing in a post apocalyptic world... at least for the first 5 months... after that whichever colony of rich people survived will come out of their science fiction pods and build a beautiful eutopia... sorry, i should have been clearer.

but you are right about spanish. teaching spanish is a demonstrated waste of public funds, and even if it wasn't its not important. don't get me started on band programs, debate team, gymnastics, british literature. seriously its 2010 and were still spending money on competitive gymnastics? AND SPANISH!?

i'd be interested why you mention spain but not mexico, which is a bigger world power than spain. on our border, and contributes to our immigration... especially to arizona! and drug trade. boo drugs.

[bernie shmegma]

We desperately need to emphasize civics & philosophy more ( esp. Ancient Greece and The Enlightenment).

[publiusjr]

I agree 100% about all the other spending with sports and that crap.
I am not against Spanish but students should have a choice of languages not mandate it.

I have a major problem with our policy with Mexico because to me, I believe we should help build up Mexico for two reasons, 1.) So people don't have to come here and be used like slaves and 2.) I believe it is our interest to have a strong and stabile mexico with a strong military on our southern boarder.

Comparing Spain and Mexico is unfair. Mexico is a war zone and has unbelivable poverty.

[Fef619]

So I am attending Seton Hall..good luck to everyone else!

[Corinne]

So I am attending Seton Hall..good luck to everyone else!

I sent my deposit today. Is anyone going to the NY event next Thursday?