Rutgers-Newark Class of 2014 (First Acceptances are in) Forum

[amg414]

If anyone has any questions about RU I can try to answer them as best and as honestly as I can.

Are you full-time, or part-time?

[BrownBears09]

If anyone has any questions about RU I can try to answer them as best and as honestly as I can.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=4

They have a forum for this already.

[Iceman389]

Lets all hope for one more round of decisions tomorrow before Christmas so we can all get a nice early Christmas present!

[get it to x]

If anyone has any questions about RU I can try to answer them as best and as honestly as I can.

Are you full-time, or part-time?

I'm a full time student.

[Paulzilla]

If anyone has any questions about RU I can try to answer them as best and as honestly as I can.

What are your thoughts on the curve? 3.0 seems pretty brutal.

[amg414]

If anyone has any questions about RU I can try to answer them as best and as honestly as I can.

Are you full-time, or part-time?

I'm a full time student.

Do you know anything about the part time program? Do part-timers have the same access to opportunities within the school as full time students do (journals, organizations, clinics, etc)?

[get it to x]

If anyone has any questions about RU I can try to answer them as best and as honestly as I can.

What are your thoughts on the curve? 3.0 seems pretty brutal.

The curve is not great by any means, but not that bad compared to Fordham which I believe curves to a B-. It really depends on how the professors skew it for first years. Some professors cut out the top/bottom (No A's, No C's) and everyone receives something in the B range. That can be a good thing considering only 10-15% of a 85-90 person class will receive an A/A- in classes where A's are given. But on the other hand it's difficult to distinguish oneself if you're in the B range. My advice is just try to get yourself above the median of the class and you'll probably get some nibbles from employers if you can diversify your resume and don't have major personality flaws. Don't underestimate the difficulty of the curriculum as well. Rutgers Law is difficult.

If anyone has any questions about RU I can try to answer them as best and as honestly as I can.

Are you full-time, or part-time?

I'm a full time student.

Do you know anything about the part time program? Do part-timers have the same access to opportunities within the school as full time students do (journals, organizations, clinics, etc)?

In my opinion, it's difficult for part-time program students to interact with full-time students just because of the class schedule. Most ft students are in the library or home when part-timers have class (5:30-9:00) or so. Journals are open to part-timers in their second year I believe. Most full-timers complete their journal hour requirements during working hours so my best guess is that part-timers who are on a journal should have some flexibility to get in on a Friday to check citations. Same thing for clinics - most students work on them during working hours. But yes the same opportunities are available for PT students just on a different timetable because of the credit-load.

[Paulzilla]

Paulzilla wrote:
get it to x wrote:
If anyone has any questions about RU I can try to answer them as best and as honestly as I can.



What are your thoughts on the curve? 3.0 seems pretty brutal.


The curve is not great by any means, but not that bad compared to Fordham which I believe curves to a B-. It really depends on how the professors skew it for first years. Some professors cut out the top/bottom (No A's, No C's) and everyone receives something in the B range. That can be a good thing considering only 10-15% of a 85-90 person class will receive an A/A- in classes where A's are given. But on the other hand it's difficult to distinguish oneself if you're in the B range. My advice is just try to get yourself above the median of the class and you'll probably get some nibbles from employers if you can diversify your resume and don't have major personality flaws. Don't underestimate the difficulty of the curriculum as well. Rutgers Law is difficult.

Thanks for the advice.

[audrey hepburn]

Hey everyone! I'll be at rutgers newark this fall too. I was supposed to start this year but deferred. See you all there

[get it to x]

Paulzilla wrote:
get it to x wrote:
If anyone has any questions about RU I can try to answer them as best and as honestly as I can.



What are your thoughts on the curve? 3.0 seems pretty brutal.


The curve is not great by any means, but not that bad compared to Fordham which I believe curves to a B-. It really depends on how the professors skew it for first years. Some professors cut out the top/bottom (No A's, No C's) and everyone receives something in the B range. That can be a good thing considering only 10-15% of a 85-90 person class will receive an A/A- in classes where A's are given. But on the other hand it's difficult to distinguish oneself if you're in the B range. My advice is just try to get yourself above the median of the class and you'll probably get some nibbles from employers if you can diversify your resume and don't have major personality flaws. Don't underestimate the difficulty of the curriculum as well. Rutgers Law is difficult.

Thanks for the advice.

No problem. Please let me know if you have any more questions.

[AmericaninManchuria]

I took the December LSAT (In China right now- only time it was offered here) so I'm still waiting until my score comes back next week to send my apps in. I'm glad to find this thread and hear about everyone's experiences.

My gpa was a 3.47 and whooo knows about my LSAT, can't wait till next week. My Kaplan diagnostic was 163 and my highest was 167, so we'll see how that averaged out test day...

Have 2 LOR and lots of n.g.o experience...right now I'm teaching abroad...so hopefully something in there will grab their attention.

For those you've been admitted, would you mind posting your stats? Its nice to have numbers to measure against.

Good Luck to everyone!

[champ33]

I took the December LSAT (In China right now- only time it was offered here) so I'm still waiting until my score comes back next week to send my apps in. I'm glad to find this thread and hear about everyone's experiences.

My gpa was a 3.47 and whooo knows about my LSAT, can't wait till next week. My Kaplan diagnostic was 163 and my highest was 167, so we'll see how that averaged out test day...

Have 2 LOR and lots of n.g.o experience...right now I'm teaching abroad...so hopefully something in there will grab their attention.

For those you've been admitted, would you mind posting your stats? Its nice to have numbers to measure against.

Good Luck to everyone!

I'm deferred and attending this fall, and I watched last year's thread for the whole cycle. With your GPA you are definitely in with mid 150s.. high 150s to 160+ and you will get a good scholarship. And remember, even if you're not a NJ resident you can get in-state tuition by moving to NJ anytime before the semester starts.

[NJcollegestudent]

I took the December LSAT (In China right now- only time it was offered here) so I'm still waiting until my score comes back next week to send my apps in. I'm glad to find this thread and hear about everyone's experiences.

My gpa was a 3.47 and whooo knows about my LSAT, can't wait till next week. My Kaplan diagnostic was 163 and my highest was 167, so we'll see how that averaged out test day...

Have 2 LOR and lots of n.g.o experience...right now I'm teaching abroad...so hopefully something in there will grab their attention.

For those you've been admitted, would you mind posting your stats? Its nice to have numbers to measure against.

Good Luck to everyone!

I'm deferred and attending this fall, and I watched last year's thread for the whole cycle. With your GPA you are definitely in with mid 150s.. high 150s to 160+ and you will get a good scholarship. And remember, even if you're not a NJ resident you can get in-state tuition by moving to NJ anytime before the semester starts.

Champ33, check your PM's.

[scribblehead]

In other news, JD's are having trouble even getting secretary/paralegal jobs:

http://www.minnpost.com/stories/2009/11/03/13083/many


How can anyone with an Internet connection, and access to literally thousands of stories just like the ones in the above article, still seriously consider a TTT law school like R-N as an option? Why would you want to take on debt and piss away 3+ years of your life to end up unemployable?

Even the ABA is finally preparing to crack down on the patently fraudulent salary/placement stats put out by TTT's:

--LinkRemoved--

Entering a TTT law school in 2011 is a kamikaze mission. Gov. Christie should slash funding for both R-N and R-C law. Why should NJ taxpayers subsidize an institution which prepares people for a career that doesn't exist? Might as well bulldoze Seton Hall too, those grads are simply beyond delusional paying 45 K for a TTT diploma mill with a sleazy reputation and a dean who moonlights as a basketball coach for the undergrad. What an embarassment.

[scribblehead]

Here's another good read:

http://www.law.com/jsp/law/article.jsp? ... Scam_Blogs


Love this quote from a U Conn 3 L:

"Does babysitting count as employment?" queried a third-year UConn law student who asked to remain anonymous. UConn reported this year that 89.9 percent of its 2009 graduating class found employment, but that figure includes temporary jobs and positions outside of the legal industry. Other law schools, such as Quinnipiac and Western New England, also count those jobs toward employment figures.

The third-year student said "it's terrifying" to think where she and her classmates might end up after graduation next year. "The competition for crappy jobs is amazing," she said. "The anxiety over getting jobs is palpable."

And it reaches into the most prestigious schools.

"I have a friend from Harvard Law School who summered at a firm and didn't get an offer last year," she said. "If Harvard isn't a golden ticket, then there's no golden ticket anymore."

BTW, the largest law firm in NJ, Newark based McCarter & English, has a 2010 summer class that consisted of 0 people:

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... r_program/


That's right kids. The BIGGEST firm in NJ, which happens to be down the street from your school, hired 0 people this year. None. Nada. Zilch.

Are you all masochists? Why would anyone with more than 2 active brain cells take a chance on law school when it's chance of paying off is less than 5%?

[AmericaninManchuria]

I took the December LSAT (In China right now- only time it was offered here) so I'm still waiting until my score comes back next week to send my apps in. I'm glad to find this thread and hear about everyone's experiences.

My gpa was a 3.47 and whooo knows about my LSAT, can't wait till next week. My Kaplan diagnostic was 163 and my highest was 167, so we'll see how that averaged out test day...

Have 2 LOR and lots of n.g.o experience...right now I'm teaching abroad...so hopefully something in there will grab their attention.

For those you've been admitted, would you mind posting your stats? Its nice to have numbers to measure against.

Good Luck to everyone!

I'm deferred and attending this fall, and I watched last year's thread for the whole cycle. With your GPA you are definitely in with mid 150s.. high 150s to 160+ and you will get a good scholarship. And remember, even if you're not a NJ resident you can get in-state tuition by moving to NJ anytime before the semester starts.

Thanks for the input Champs..I am a NJ resident...I hope you're right!

[masterthearts]

Here's another good read:

http://www.law.com/jsp/law/article.jsp? ... Scam_Blogs


Love this quote from a U Conn 3 L:

"Does babysitting count as employment?" queried a third-year UConn law student who asked to remain anonymous. UConn reported this year that 89.9 percent of its 2009 graduating class found employment, but that figure includes temporary jobs and positions outside of the legal industry. Other law schools, such as Quinnipiac and Western New England, also count those jobs toward employment figures.

The third-year student said "it's terrifying" to think where she and her classmates might end up after graduation next year. "The competition for crappy jobs is amazing," she said. "The anxiety over getting jobs is palpable."

And it reaches into the most prestigious schools.

"I have a friend from Harvard Law School who summered at a firm and didn't get an offer last year," she said. "If Harvard isn't a golden ticket, then there's no golden ticket anymore."

BTW, the largest law firm in NJ, Newark based McCarter & English, has a 2010 summer class that consisted of 0 people:

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... r_program/


That's right kids. The BIGGEST firm in NJ, which happens to be down the street from your school, hired 0 people this year. None. Nada. Zilch.

Are you all masochists? Why would anyone with more than 2 active brain cells take a chance on law school when it's chance of paying off is less than 5%?

It is so sweet of you to be so concerned about our futures, especially since we don't even know you. Thanks for your concern. You can move on to cleaning toilets. I plan on having a career as an attorney, benefits and all. Sorry you couldn't make it. Please move on and leave the rest of us alone.

[AmericaninManchuria]

Here's another good read:

http://www.law.com/jsp/law/article.jsp? ... Scam_Blogs


Love this quote from a U Conn 3 L:

"Does babysitting count as employment?" queried a third-year UConn law student who asked to remain anonymous. UConn reported this year that 89.9 percent of its 2009 graduating class found employment, but that figure includes temporary jobs and positions outside of the legal industry. Other law schools, such as Quinnipiac and Western New England, also count those jobs toward employment figures.

The third-year student said "it's terrifying" to think where she and her classmates might end up after graduation next year. "The competition for crappy jobs is amazing," she said. "The anxiety over getting jobs is palpable."

And it reaches into the most prestigious schools.

"I have a friend from Harvard Law School who summered at a firm and didn't get an offer last year," she said. "If Harvard isn't a golden ticket, then there's no golden ticket anymore."

BTW, the largest law firm in NJ, Newark based McCarter & English, has a 2010 summer class that consisted of 0 people:

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... r_program/


That's right kids. The BIGGEST firm in NJ, which happens to be down the street from your school, hired 0 people this year. None. Nada. Zilch.

Are you all masochists? Why would anyone with more than 2 active brain cells take a chance on law school when it's chance of paying off is less than 5%?

I'm wondering....why are you so personally invested in this? You have a lot of posts on here. Maybe these people genuinely want a legal education and are willing to take the chances they need to. My mother, aunt, and good friend all have graduated from schools you have bashed, Rutgers included, and all have very successful jobs now, and were all hired upon graduating. When my mother was applying to schools in the early 90's there were tons of negative commentators like you saying basically the same thing...but the dark picture youre painting didn't materialize for them, or anyone else I know. So even if they were the lucky few, your level of investment in this issue is still excessive. Do you see this as a public service you're performing or is this an outlet for your own anger?

[aidez-moi]

scribblehead, do you feel better now?

[denbeaux]

When my mother was applying to schools in the early 90's there were tons of negative commentators like you saying basically the same thing...but the dark picture youre painting didn't materialize for them, or anyone else I know.

In the early 1990s, legal jobs were not outsourced to India. The technology did not exist (i.e, high speed internet, PDF docs, etc).

Legal outsourcing is now running full steam ahead, as this article details:

http://open.salon.com/blog/vanessakacha ... d_to_india


and it's not just the temporary doc review being being affected (although they were the first to feel the pain, as the TTT's always are. Pay attention to this quote from the general counsel of General Electric:

What G.E. does not need, though, is the “army of associates around them,” Ms. Dascenzo said. “You don’t need a $500-an-hour associate to do things like document review and basic due diligence,” she said.

and this quote:

“It really is the future of legal services,” said Ms. Cooper, an American based in London who travels regularly to India and has spoken widely in promoting outsourcing. Still, she acknowledges hostility toward the practice. “When I was doing public speaking, people used to joke that I had better check under my car” for something planted by a junior associate angered by her views, she said.

Don't think only the big firms are aboard the outsourcing bandwagon. Even low-level insurance defense pleadings are now routinely prepared in Delhi and Bangalore. This LPO (Legal Process Outsourcer) brags about handling pleadings and "high-end motions" for a large insurance defense mill (probably Wilson Elser):

http://www.prodigylegal.com/about-us.html

In closing, don't look for the ABA to save your job. They endorse outsourcing 100%:

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1202424085117

The sad truth is that 99% of legal work is as routine as routine can be. I worked for 3+ years in insurance defense and never once saw a motion that couldn't be cut n' pasted together in less than an hour. All you need to do most legal work is a mouse- the keyboard is optional since no writing/talent/original thought or reasoning is ever required.

and gee whiz, do you think outsourcing might have something to do with the lack of entry-level legal jobs? Naaah, couldn't be.

[denbeaux]

You can move on to cleaning toilets. I plan on having a career as an attorney, benefits and all.

I "planned" on playing centerfield for the NY Yankees when I was 13. Wish in one hand & shit in the other, and see which one fills up first.

[get it to x]

Here's another good read:

http://www.law.com/jsp/law/article.jsp? ... Scam_Blogs


Love this quote from a U Conn 3 L:

"Does babysitting count as employment?" queried a third-year UConn law student who asked to remain anonymous. UConn reported this year that 89.9 percent of its 2009 graduating class found employment, but that figure includes temporary jobs and positions outside of the legal industry. Other law schools, such as Quinnipiac and Western New England, also count those jobs toward employment figures.

The third-year student said "it's terrifying" to think where she and her classmates might end up after graduation next year. "The competition for crappy jobs is amazing," she said. "The anxiety over getting jobs is palpable."

And it reaches into the most prestigious schools.

"I have a friend from Harvard Law School who summered at a firm and didn't get an offer last year," she said. "If Harvard isn't a golden ticket, then there's no golden ticket anymore."

BTW, the largest law firm in NJ, Newark based McCarter & English, has a 2010 summer class that consisted of 0 people:

http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/ ... r_program/


That's right kids. The BIGGEST firm in NJ, which happens to be down the street from your school, hired 0 people this year. None. Nada. Zilch.

Are you all masochists? Why would anyone with more than 2 active brain cells take a chance on law school when it's chance of paying off is less than 5%?

I'm wondering....why are you so personally invested in this? You have a lot of posts on here. Maybe these people genuinely want a legal education and are willing to take the chances they need to. My mother, aunt, and good friend all have graduated from schools you have bashed, Rutgers included, and all have very successful jobs now, and were all hired upon graduating. When my mother was applying to schools in the early 90's there were tons of negative commentators like you saying basically the same thing...but the dark picture youre painting didn't materialize for them, or anyone else I know. So even if they were the lucky few, your level of investment in this issue is still excessive. Do you see this as a public service you're performing or is this an outlet for your own anger?

AM, posts like these do serve the common good by just bringing these issues to your attention. The unbalanced presentation of it is what, I gather, crawls under people's skin. It's true that BigLaw has undergone a severe retraction since the recession hit and are hiring less people than would have when things were firing on all cylinders. That's had a trickle down effect to regional (McCarter English et al) and mid-sized firms that usually drew a sizeable portion of their first year associates from regional schools. Those jobs are scarce now and have increased competition for government positions etc. However, no school's sheer reputation (outside of the top 5 and even that's arguable now) is going to deliver you a job at the end of the 3 years. You have to be far more proactive in getting practical experience, clerking, etc. in finding opportunities that will lead to permanent employment now more than ever regardless of what your class rank/GPA is and what school you attended.

[champ33]

You can move on to cleaning toilets. I plan on having a career as an attorney, benefits and all.

I "planned" on playing centerfield for the NY Yankees when I was 13. Wish in one hand & shit in the other, and see which one fills up first.

Why are you posting with multiple accounts?

[aidez-moi]

AM, posts like these do serve the common good by just bringing these issues to your attention. The unbalanced presentation of it is what, I gather, crawls under people's skin. It's true that BigLaw has undergone a severe retraction since the recession hit and are hiring less people than would have when things were firing on all cylinders. That's had a trickle down effect to regional (McCarter English et al) and mid-sized firms that usually drew a sizeable portion of their first year associates from regional schools. Those jobs are scarce now and have increased competition for government positions etc. However, no school's sheer reputation (outside of the top 5 and even that's arguable now) is going to deliver you a job at the end of the 3 years. You have to be far more proactive in getting practical experience, clerking, etc. in finding opportunities that will lead to permanent employment now more than ever regardless of what your class rank/GPA is and what school you attended.

They do serve a purpose, but not here. Scribblehead/denbeaux made his point. It's time to move on.

[denbeaux]

AM, posts like these do serve the common good by just bringing these issues to your attention. The unbalanced presentation of it is what, I gather, crawls under people's skin. It's true that BigLaw has undergone a severe retraction since the recession hit and are hiring less people than would have when things were firing on all cylinders. That's had a trickle down effect to regional (McCarter English et al) and mid-sized firms that usually drew a sizeable portion of their first year associates from regional schools. Those jobs are scarce now and have increased competition for government positions etc. However, no school's sheer reputation (outside of the top 5 and even that's arguable now) is going to deliver you a job at the end of the 3 years. You have to be far more proactive in getting practical experience, clerking, etc. in finding opportunities that will lead to permanent employment now more than ever regardless of what your class rank/GPA is and what school you attended.

I'll add that the mentality most posters on this thread (and TLS in general) have is that "I will be different. I will study harder than everyone and make the Top 5%. I'll outwork, out-network, volunteer, etc etc and land a decent job with benefits. I won't even consider the fact that, statistically, the laws of supply & demand work overwhelmingly against me."

Here's a newsflash: almost everyone in law school works their ass off, at least the first year. Everyone wants a good job, benefits, a successful career as a lawyer, and maybe to work in an area of law which interests them (criminal, legal aid etc).

Yet it matters little how hard you work when the supply of new grads exceeds the demand by such an exponentially absurd number. The U Conn 3 L quoted in the article I posted is correct that "the competition for even the crappiest jobs" is intense.

Stop and ask yourself how many times in your life you (or your family) has ever needed a lawyer. Then open the local yellow pages and count the number of attorney ads present. Multiply that by 3 to account for the local lawyers not advertising there, the national TV commerical mills like Jacoby & Myers and 1-800-Bankruptcy, etc. Do you really think a market as saturated as law is a wise choice as a career?

How do you intend to compete with the hordes of experienced lawyers who've been laid off and will accept entry-level salaries for the same jobs you're seeking? If you're a bankruptcy partner and review a resume with 3+ years experience and a new grad,and both will accept the same salary, who are you going to hire? That's sadly the situation you'll soon face. The demand for recent grads from non-Ivy schools in NYC/NJ is essentially zero. Lawyers are dime a dozen, hence the craigslist doc reviw gigs paying as little as $18 an hour for people with NY/NJ bar admission.

If you want the straight dope, take a drive to Westfield NJ and check out Barasso Consulting. There are over fifty 2007-2009 R-N grads working there now (and over 70 Seton Haller's). Total # of lawyers at this place is about 200, all earning $29 an hour, no health benefits, and no paid leave. Temps, all of them.

On Dec. 15, the parent company, Deliotte Consulting, announced that by March 2011 the facility will close down and everyone laid off. Deliotte is moving the entire doc review to India as a cost-cutting measure. So there's 200 more lawyers added to the unemployment rolls. Huron Consulting in NYC recently did likewise, axing 400+ temporary attorneys in 2009-10.

As Bruce Springsteen sang in "My Hometown:"

Foreman says these jobs are goin' boys,
And they ain't a comin' back