WUSTL c/o 2016 Applicants (2012-2013) Forum

[shntn]

Would you say this list for those who want/need biglaw is more important the USnews rankings?

A thousand times yes. The US News are a measure of the incoming credentials of students and of peer-based prestige. The NLJ250 is actual student outcomes for BigLaw.

But remember it doesn't account for grads who go to BigLaw after clerkships

So what is your view that Cardozo places so high (relatevily), when looking at it together with WashU

Alumni base and location in NYC.

[JayJones78]

Would you say this list for those who want/need biglaw is more important the USnews rankings?

A thousand times yes. The US News are a measure of the incoming credentials of students and of peer-based prestige. The NLJ250 is actual student outcomes for BigLaw.

But remember it doesn't account for grads who go to BigLaw after clerkships

So what is your view that Cardozo places so high (relatevily), when looking at it together with WashU

Alumni base and location in NYC.

When I first saw it I was struck by their placement in relation to the hate they get on TLS, only preceded by the hate towards Ameican.

[wannabelawstudent]

Can someone explain the American hate?

[goldeneye]

Can someone explain the American hate?

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... ategy.html

they game the system more than most schools. competitive market, huge class, expensive.

[shntn]

Can someone explain the American hate?

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... ategy.html

they game the system more than most schools. competitive market, huge class, expensive.

It pains me to think how seriously I was considering attending back in the day.

[dproduct]

Can someone explain the American hate?

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... ategy.html

they game the system more than most schools. competitive market, huge class, expensive.

It pains me to think how seriously I was considering attending back in the day.

[JayJones78]

Can someone explain the American hate?

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... ategy.html

they game the system more than most schools. competitive market, huge class, expensive.

It pains me to think how seriously I was considering attending back in the day.

I can understand some of the words thrown towards AU but I don't really get why the hate towards Cardozo when (at least it looks as) their grads who do well (and that's similar to almost any non t14 grads) do just fine. I think the fact that they rank there almost 20 some spots higher than their usnews ranking speaks volumes. I don't think one should choose cardozo over WashU if they are not 100 percent sure they want NYC

[howardgirl]

Thank you guys for the advice. I think I definitely need to look at WUSTL seriously. Definitely at the top of my list now.

[Xs20]

Come on, Krystal, hit us with DAT $$$ this week

[dproduct]

I hope WUSTL pulls a UVA this cycle.

[shntn]

I hope WUSTL pulls a UVA this cycle.

Except for the part where they change tacks midcycle and start acting all crazy.

[wannabelawstudent]

But American is #11 in Cooley's law school rankings?

[dproduct]

I hope WUSTL pulls a UVA this cycle.

Except for the part where they change tacks midcycle and start acting all crazy.

Here's hoping.

[somewhatwayward]

Would you say this list for those who want/need biglaw is more important the USnews rankings?

A thousand times yes. The US News are a measure of the incoming credentials of students and of peer-based prestige. The NLJ250 is actual student outcomes for BigLaw.

But remember it doesn't account for grads who go to BigLaw after clerkships

So what is your view that Cardozo places so high (relatevily), when looking at it together with WashU

... I don't really get why the hate towards Cardozo when (at least it looks as) their grads who do well (and that's similar to almost any non t14 grads) do just fine. I think the fact that they rank there almost 20 some spots higher than their usnews ranking speaks volumes. I don't think one should choose cardozo over WashU if they are not 100 percent sure they want NYC

I am actually surprised how close Cardozo and WUSTL are on that list....completely negligible difference (of course, you have to include their federal clerkship placement, but it doesn't change much because WUSTL is 3.8% while Cardozo is 2.9%). I would've expected WUSTL at 20% and Cardozo at 10%. I would guess, though, that another 5-10% of WUSTL's class is placed into decent midwestern firms that don't make the NLJ 250. Overall WUSTL places 60% into legal jobs while Cardozo places 50%, so not a huge difference there either although that doesn't tell us anything about the quality of the jobs obtained. WUSTL may have an edge there.

Given these numbers, and without information about quality of jobs obtained, I think Cardozo makes more sense (although it does not make sense in an absolute sense) because you are getting basically the same placement while competing against a less qualified student body and probably getting more scholarship money since Cardozo will pay for a 165 while WUSTL will probably reject that person, forget a scholarship. The caveat is, as you point out, that if you don't want NYC, Cardozo will definitely be a bad choice. In that case, though, I might look to lower T1 schools with scholarships over WUSTL if the employment figures are similar. It sucks to be trying to best 80-90% of your class when your class is as smart as the classes WUSTL is taking.

The reason Cardozo gets shit, though, is because even though it places 15% into big law + clerkships, besting many higher-ranked schools, it doesn't produce good outcomes for the vast majority of the other students, and it is really, really expensive, partially because of COL in NYC but also because it charges way more tuition than it has business charging. Cardozo may be beating other schools but those other schools are doing so poorly that beating them doesn't mean much. Also, as with WUSTL, other schools that aren't in major metropolitan areas may place some of their class into decent firms that aren't NLJ 250, so their numbers are somewhat deflated.

[Randomnumbers]

Given these numbers, and without information about quality of jobs obtained, I think Cardozo makes more sense (although it does not make sense in an absolute sense) because you are getting basically the same placement while competing against a less qualified student body and probably getting more scholarship money since Cardozo will pay for a 165 while WUSTL will probably reject that person, forget a scholarship. The caveat is, as you point out, that if you don't want NYC, Cardozo will definitely be a bad choice. In that case, though, I might look to lower T1 schools with scholarships over WUSTL if the employment figures are similar. It sucks to be trying to best 80-90% of your class when your class is as smart as the classes WUSTL is taking.

The reason Cardozo gets shit, though, is because even though it places 15% into big law + clerkships, besting many higher-ranked schools, it doesn't produce good outcomes for the vast majority of the other students, and it is really, really expensive, partially because of COL in NYC but also because it charges way more tuition than it has business charging. Cardozo may be beating other schools but those other schools are doing so poorly that beating them doesn't mean much. Also, as with WUSTL, other schools that aren't in major metropolitan areas may place some of their class into decent firms that aren't NLJ 250, so their numbers are somewhat deflated.

You can't count on doing better because of the 'quality of the student body'. The difference between a 166 and a 165 on the LSAT when it comes to taking law school exams is meaningless. At both places you'll be competing against very intelligent and motivated people - and you have no way of knowing how you will be at law school exams until you start taking them. Your logic here is very flawed.

[DoveBodyWash]

Cardozos placement is inflated by IP. They draw a lot of older students with previous STEM WE. Also almost any likely increase in scholly from Dozo would be offset by the ridiculously high living cost in NYC.

[JayJones78]

Given these numbers, and without information about quality of jobs obtained, I think Cardozo makes more sense (although it does not make sense in an absolute sense) because you are getting basically the same placement while competing against a less qualified student body and probably getting more scholarship money since Cardozo will pay for a 165 while WUSTL will probably reject that person, forget a scholarship. The caveat is, as you point out, that if you don't want NYC, Cardozo will definitely be a bad choice. In that case, though, I might look to lower T1 schools with scholarships over WUSTL if the employment figures are similar. It sucks to be trying to best 80-90% of your class when your class is as smart as the classes WUSTL is taking.

The reason Cardozo gets shit, though, is because even though it places 15% into big law + clerkships, besting many higher-ranked schools, it doesn't produce good outcomes for the vast majority of the other students, and it is really, really expensive, partially because of COL in NYC but also because it charges way more tuition than it has business charging. Cardozo may be beating other schools but those other schools are doing so poorly that beating them doesn't mean much. Also, as with WUSTL, other schools that aren't in major metropolitan areas may place some of their class into decent firms that aren't NLJ 250, so their numbers are somewhat deflated.

You can't count on doing better because of the 'quality of the student body'. The difference between a 166 and a 165 on the LSAT when it comes to taking law school exams is meaningless. At both places you'll be competing against very intelligent and motivated people - and you have no way of knowing how you will be at law school exams until you start taking them. Your logic here is very flawed.

I agree with you.
For me the biggest thing is COL is NYC, which is why I am fearing even getting off the WL at Fordham. 3 years with no money coming in while paying ridiculous rent in NYC is very very scary to me

[goldeneye]

I got off the WL at Fordham last year. No scholly money that late. No thank you. COA was near 70k at that rate. I'll take STL cost of living and scholly at WUSTL.

the less you spend in law school, in theory, the more flexible you can be in looking for legal jobs.

[Crowing]

Yeah Dozo (and other NYC schools below Fordham) get shit on constantly mainly due to cost. On top of NYC CoL Dozo's tuition is like 50k/year.

[JayJones78]

Yeah Dozo (and other NYC schools below Fordham) get shit on constantly mainly due to cost. On top of NYC CoL Dozo's tuition is like 50k/year.

Yah. I think (but who knows) ill get into Cardozo but I really don't know if I should attend if they give me little to no money. That said, I would be very much okay with NYC big law

[dproduct]

I got off the WL at Fordham last year. No scholly money that late. No thank you. COA was near 70k at that rate. I'll take STL cost of living and scholly at WUSTL.

the less you spend in law school, in theory, the more flexible you can be in looking for legal jobs.

Something that is not stated quite enough on this website.

[JayJones78]

I got off the WL at Fordham last year. No scholly money that late. No thank you. COA was near 70k at that rate. I'll take STL cost of living and scholly at WUSTL.

the less you spend in law school, in theory, the more flexible you can be in looking for legal jobs.

Something that is not stated quite enough on this website.

Agreed. But for me, with my numbers Im looking at sticker/close to sticker at 90% of the schools I applied to. So for me COL is key and it maybe the only think I can really control as tuition is not whats going to impact the decision (I may get surprised , but it's unlikely)

[timeandspace11]

New York is definitely rough with rent, but isnt it possible to find something "relatively" affordable in Brooklyn if you have roommates? I understand a studio apartment or a 1 bedroom is out of the question, but roommates may drive the cost down

[shifty_eyed]

New York is definitely rough with rent, but isnt it possible to find something "relatively" affordable in Brooklyn if you have roommates? I understand a studio apartment or a 1 bedroom is out of the question, but roommates may drive the cost down

I think you also have to consider quality of life. If you are paying the same to live with 3 roommates in Brooklyn as you would be to live alone within walking distance to school, some might choose the lower COL school. Of course, there are those who LOVE the NYC experience and may find it worth it.

[timeandspace11]

New York is definitely rough with rent, but isnt it possible to find something "relatively" affordable in Brooklyn if you have roommates? I understand a studio apartment or a 1 bedroom is out of the question, but roommates may drive the cost down

I think you also have to consider quality of life. If you are paying the same to live with 3 roommates in Brooklyn as you would be to live alone within walking distance to school, some might choose the lower COL school. Of course, there are those who LOVE the NYC experience and may find it worth it.

Thats true. I think that is why NYC is so expensive. Even middle class people are willing to spend a lot to enjoy all the city has to offer. Nothing wrong with that.