Emory 2011 Forum

[innernetp]

I feel really badly for Emory just because of the PR. Even if it is all bull crap, which I will discuss, I just hate it for the Dean to feel like he needs to send out an email. I don't know why I feel so badly but I really do.

If students say they're not fudging the numbers, I believe them. I believe that Emory was caught off-guard or whatever. But why would they be significantly more impacted by this than other schools? Is it that they DID know this was going to happen and they refused to lie? Is it that everyone else had a tip off? That's something I don't quite understand. I think the Dean making a statement is the right move, but I'm not sure how to interpret this statement.

I'm also not that concerned with the first measurement of employment and I do believe that this is the number most commonly messed with in admissions. People are studying for the bar, they're re-grouping, etc. It would obviously be ideal if 100% of graduates were employed, but with the bar ahead I'm just not too fussed if fresh grads aren't employed. It's that 9-months after statistic that better be pretty golden.

As for what students are attracted and turned off, I have to wonder about the sample that is TLS. I have no idea what proportion of prospective students read these threads and more than that I'm not sure what the overall influence is. I am certain, though, that the people here tend to be critical in not-so-helpful and not always incredibly discerning ways.

I am not at all bothered if someone decides to go to UC Davis rather than Emory based off of rankings alone (as a prospective Emory student) because frankly that's shortsighted and misguided. I'm using UC Davis just as an example of a school that's moved up, I'm not saying that going to UC Davis is shortsighted. It's ironic to me that there might be an effect here, though. Perhaps students who score in the upper percentiles of the LSAT and who have high GPAs make their decision based off of these rankings. You would think that, when making a serious investment like this, these kinds of intelligent people would be highly critical of all information of a school - positive and negative. I would much prefer to attend a school with less-than-perfect employment statistics that are genuine than lay down one hundred and fifty thousand dollars for a school that isn't being completely honest about what's going on there. I feel that there are very few law schools where taking on the debt is not a gamble in some way. I accept that fact, but I sure as hell need to know my odds.

[FuManChusco]

I feel really badly for Emory just because of the PR. Even if it is all bull crap, which I will discuss, I just hate it for the Dean to feel like he needs to send out an email. I don't know why I feel so badly but I really do.

If students say they're not fudging the numbers, I believe them. I believe that Emory was caught off-guard or whatever. But why would they be significantly more impacted by this than other schools? Is it that they DID know this was going to happen and they refused to lie? Is it that everyone else had a tip off? That's something I don't quite understand. I think the Dean making a statement is the right move, but I'm not sure how to interpret this statement.

I'm also not that concerned with the first measurement of employment and I do believe that this is the number most commonly messed with in admissions. People are studying for the bar, they're re-grouping, etc. It would obviously be ideal if 100% of graduates were employed, but with the bar ahead I'm just not too fussed if fresh grads aren't employed. It's that 9-months after statistic that better be pretty golden.

As for what students are attracted and turned off, I have to wonder about the sample that is TLS. I have no idea what proportion of prospective students read these threads and more than that I'm not sure what the overall influence is. I am certain, though, that the people here tend to be critical in not-so-helpful and not always incredibly discerning ways.

I am not at all bothered if someone decides to go to UC Davis rather than Emory based off of rankings alone (as a prospective Emory student) because frankly that's shortsighted and misguided. I'm using UC Davis just as an example of a school that's moved up, I'm not saying that going to UC Davis is shortsighted. It's ironic to me that there might be an effect here, though. Perhaps students who score in the upper percentiles of the LSAT and who have high GPAs make their decision based off of these rankings. You would think that, when making a serious investment like this, these kinds of intelligent people would be highly critical of all information of a school - positive and negative. I would much prefer to attend a school with less-than-perfect employment statistics that are genuine than lay down one hundred and fifty thousand dollars for a school that isn't being completely honest about what's going on there. I feel that there are very few law schools where taking on the debt is not a gamble in some way. I accept that fact, but I sure as hell need to know my odds.

OperaSoprano had a pretty solid post, per usual, in the Rankings thread.

Happy to join in the fun, if a bit late. I've been at dinner with my mom and grandma.

I, who hate and despise the rankings uniquely, am still pleased to be back attending a T30. Never prouder or happier for Fordham. (We did cut the PT program, but added an afternoon section, and I am happy to note the school stayed pretty damn committed to admitting interesting people even with more modest numbers.)

Does not compute.

The rankings are largely meaningless drivel, and they're actually harmful drivel, because deans can get sacked if their schools drop in the rankings in consecutive years. I happen to strongly dislike USNWR's past methodology, and feel they could do a far better job compelling transparency, but I am still happy my school rose in the rankings because I happen to like our head of admissions and I don't want him under pressure to change admissions standards here. We admit some really amazing nontrads and others who are not good for a magazine formula, perhaps, but are very, very good for the school. I'm glad we rose in the rankings, because it's a vindication of our admissions strategy, and an indication that admissions will likely be left alone to do its thing.

I don't like the stranglehold the magazine has on law school administration, but until that changes, it means admissions will have greater latitude while our rank is rising, at least by my guess.

[dcgirl1013]

Just mailed my deposit!!! EMORY CLASS OF 2014!! I visited last weekend and everything about the school and Dean were amazing and very impressive! I strongly encourage you all to visit!

[indecisive111]

I didn't get the E-mail from the Dean about the rankings and I haven't received a decision... safe to assume a ding is on the way?

[flexityflex86]

Who needs to split a room for ASW?

i'll split with you! i've been trying to find someone in the visits forum, but no one even posts there.

Ok so let's get in contact then, and make this shiznit happen!

[drummerboy]

great posts guys. i too will be attending. if i were the dean, i too would not fudge results. bottomline, its dishonest. if other schools do indeed fudge employment data, unsubstantiated info, i feel sorry for those students thinking that 90 percent will immediately find jobs.

[SrLaw]

If they could have just given me a bit more $$$ I would be there. Unfortunately, I just cannot justify paying 45-50K more than Wake Forest would cost me.

[beachviolet11]

Has anyone been accepted the last couple days?

[PuckCU06]

Hoping this is seen by Dean R (as he posts on here from time to time) I wanted to say...

First, I do believe that the rankings are largely meaningless... I am still eagerly awaiting the decision and will likely attend if admitted... Thank you for the last email, though it was unnecessary.

That said, the one key question (that others have also posted) re: the change in methodology for calculating employment is, "Why was Emory the only Law School whose ranking was dramatically affected by the change?" I do believe, and expect many on this board also agree, that Emory is the same wonderful place it was last Wednesday... but, clearly, there is something about the school (maybe the culture, who knows? lots of folks moving on to get Ph.D's after graduation...) that is different the other schools in the 30, as Emory was the only one to see such a dramatic shift...

If someone from the school can speak to what this difference is, that would be useful information and appreciated.

Best... Ms. McBeal

[pballer]

I would advise you to e-mail Dean Rosenzweig directly about that question as opposed to posting in a TLS thread. I sent him an e-mail last month and he gave a prompt response.

[kk19131]

-30-

[ze2151]

Hey all. Just wanted to drop in and weigh in on the rankings thing. I don't have a lot to say about it apart from the fact that people here are very concerned and appear to be taking extremely proactive steps regarding it. As for me, I don't know that very much has changed in the real world. Emory is what it is, and its reputation around here is the same. I would maybe liken this to what happened to Fordham last year. If any of you are reconsidering Emory based on these rankings, I would urge you to proceed with caution, as the rankings themselves are quite arbitrary. If you are reconsidering because of the released employment data, that is another thing entirely... Although I don't know what to make of it. I don't think 65% is accurate based on the info I've reconnoitered, and I highly doubt any school in Emory's range touting 90% employment is being truthful.

Trust me when I say the school is reacting decisively in the wake of this news. The school isn't too concerned with its reputation in the legal community, as (as I said) it is what it is and will continue to be. But it knows that prospectives are very attuned to the rankings and is very concerned about a downstream effect. The beneficiaries of this mess (if there are any) will likely be this and next year's applicants.

As I said, Emory remains where it stands in the legal pecking order and actually enjoys a very good reputation among hiring partners. I have a few very interesting job opportunities for this Summer (my 1L Summer), two of which pay. So I can't complain about my experience here. But there may be (and probably are) colleagues here who are struggling mightily, and the data bear that out. Again, I don't think the US News data are entirely accurate, but that's one man's opinion.

If you were planning on visiting, stick to the plan. Sit down with Dean Ethan, heck, sit down with me. We can talk about it and anything else re: law school. This isn't a great situation, but in perspective, it really hasn't changed much apart from prospective students' perceptions, which could change a lot of things long term if those perceptions aren't ameliorated.

Please pm if you have specific questions about this drama or other stuff, as always! I will be checking less frequently in the next few days (oral argument practice Friday and official the following weekend, so it's quite a busy time).

[PuckCU06]

I would advise you to e-mail Dean Rosenzweig directly about that question as opposed to posting in a TLS thread. I sent him an e-mail last month and he gave a prompt response.

Alright, I sent Dean R an email... we'll see if he replies, and if he does, I will share what I learn. I feel bad asking--- I worry he'll take it the wrong way.

[drummerboy]

great work guys!! Keep us all posted. BTW im thrilled to be attending asd screw the rankings. there is no way 90% are getting definitive legal jobs immediately post grad. in peer schools

[EU223]

Making a decision about where you want to go to law school based, at least in part, on employment prospects is an incredibly wise decision. However, using US News as your primary metric for career prospects is incredibly perilous and unwise. The data is just not that reliable. If you are truly concerned, I implore you to do your due diligence and get the most accurate data available. Talk to lawyers in Georgia, New York and DC, look at the real employment data put out by unbiased 3rd parties, talk to Emory 2Ls and 3Ls, and talk to Emory Career Services. While, Emory might not be Harvard or a T14, they are very well respected in the legal community. Just look at its rank among lawyers and recruiters in US News.

If you are really worried about the rankings, do not overlook the fact that they are volatile and will certainly change by the time you graduate. It sounds like Emory isn't ignoring the rankings because of how it can impact prospective students opinions. Given their alumni base, long standing reputation, and concern about the drop, I would be pretty surprised if it is more than a temporary bump on the road.

[drummerboy]

well said

[FuManChusco]

Making a decision about where you want to go to law school based, at least in part, on employment prospects is an incredibly wise decision. However, using US News as your primary metric for career prospects is incredibly perilous and unwise. The data is just not that reliable. If you are truly concerned, I implore you to do your due diligence and get the most accurate data available. Talk to lawyers in Georgia, New York and DC, look at the real employment data put out by unbiased 3rd parties, talk to Emory 2Ls and 3Ls, and talk to Emory Career Services. While, Emory might not be Harvard or a T14, they are very well respected in the legal community. Just look at its rank among lawyers and recruiters in US News.

If you are really worried about the rankings, do not overlook the fact that they are volatile and will certainly change by the time you graduate. It sounds like Emory isn't ignoring the rankings because of how it can impact prospective students opinions. Given their alumni base, long standing reputation, and concern about the drop, I would be pretty surprised if it is more than a temporary bump on the road.

awesome.

[EU223]

I meant the employment data in the magazine, not the overall information, like LSAT scores, peer rating, ect. I believe a lot the employment stats are self reported and don't distinguish between whether someone is an attorney or doing manual labor. A school cannot game what a recruiter thinks about them nearly as easily as they can manipulate the employment data. I should have expressed myself more precisely by saying it's perilous to heavily rely on the employment statistics.

[mrwarre85]

Making a decision about where you want to go to law school based, at least in part, on employment prospects is an incredibly wise decision. However, using US News as your primary metric for career prospects is incredibly perilous and unwise. The data is just not that reliable. If you are truly concerned, I implore you to do your due diligence and get the most accurate data available. Talk to lawyers in Georgia, New York and DC, look at the real employment data put out by unbiased 3rd parties, talk to Emory 2Ls and 3Ls, and talk to Emory Career Services. While, Emory might not be Harvard or a T14, they are very well respected in the legal community. Just look at its rank among lawyers and recruiters in US News.

If you are really worried about the rankings, do not overlook the fact that they are volatile and will certainly change by the time you graduate. It sounds like Emory isn't ignoring the rankings because of how it can impact prospective students opinions. Given their alumni base, long standing reputation, and concern about the drop, I would be pretty surprised if it is more than a temporary bump on the road.

awesome.

Haha thanks I was too lazy to make all the necessary clicks to point that out.

[Omerta]

Making a decision about where you want to go to law school based, at least in part, on employment prospects is an incredibly wise decision. However, using US News as your primary metric for career prospects is incredibly perilous and unwise. The data is just not that reliable. If you are truly concerned, I implore you to do your due diligence and get the most accurate data available. Talk to lawyers in Georgia, New York and DC, look at the real employment data put out by unbiased 3rd parties, talk to Emory 2Ls and 3Ls, and talk to Emory Career Services. While, Emory might not be Harvard or a T14, they are very well respected in the legal community. Just look at its rank among lawyers and recruiters in US News.

If you are really worried about the rankings, do not overlook the fact that they are volatile and will certainly change by the time you graduate. It sounds like Emory isn't ignoring the rankings because of how it can impact prospective students opinions. Given their alumni base, long standing reputation, and concern about the drop, I would be pretty surprised if it is more than a temporary bump on the road.

awesome.

S/he's actually making a point that went over your head. Emory's ranked 18th in terms of practitioner opinion of the school. Not the best metric, but a better one than employment data that's universally known to be misleading/borderline false.

Re: ranking change. GW dropped 12 spots two years ago due to a change in methodology, now they're back at 20. No effect on hiring or student recruitment.

edit: peer rating is also gamed. Schools (Wisconsin and some others) ranked themselves and the T6 as 5 (top score) and gave every other school a 1.

[DubPoker]

edit: peer rating is also gamed. Schools (Wisconsin and some others) ranked themselves and the T6 as 5 (top score) and gave every other school a 1.

Not to derail away from Emory content, but how do you know this. Specifically about Wisconsin?

[tttlllsss]

GW dropped 12 spots two years ago

no

[Mickey Quicknumbers]

GW dropped 12 spots two years ago

no

Well, 8 spots, but the point remains the same.

[Renne Walker]

My uncle is good friend of the Rollins family, a loyal Emory contributor. I have toured the campus on a couple of occasions, it certainly is impressive. I applied to Emory and I was exultant when I was accepted. I came within an eyelash of enrolling.

When I saw Emory unexpectedly dived in the US News rankings, my first thought was, glad I didn’t go there. However, after reading a few posts, the new ranking is seemingly more to do with methodology than anything substantial. I think the feeling is that Emory was blindsided by the 8 point drop.

I agree with early posters, the drop will sting for a while, but Emory will climb back up!

[FuManChusco]

Making a decision about where you want to go to law school based, at least in part, on employment prospects is an incredibly wise decision. However, using US News as your primary metric for career prospects is incredibly perilous and unwise. The data is just not that reliable. If you are truly concerned, I implore you to do your due diligence and get the most accurate data available. Talk to lawyers in Georgia, New York and DC, look at the real employment data put out by unbiased 3rd parties, talk to Emory 2Ls and 3Ls, and talk to Emory Career Services. While, Emory might not be Harvard or a T14, they are very well respected in the legal community. Just look at its rank among lawyers and recruiters in US News.

If you are really worried about the rankings, do not overlook the fact that they are volatile and will certainly change by the time you graduate. It sounds like Emory isn't ignoring the rankings because of how it can impact prospective students opinions. Given their alumni base, long standing reputation, and concern about the drop, I would be pretty surprised if it is more than a temporary bump on the road.

awesome.

S/he's actually making a point that went over your head. Emory's ranked 18th in terms of practitioner opinion of the school. Not the best metric, but a better one than employment data that's universally known to be misleading/borderline false.

Re: ranking change. GW dropped 12 spots two years ago due to a change in methodology, now they're back at 20. No effect on hiring or student recruitment.

edit: peer rating is also gamed. Schools (Wisconsin and some others) ranked themselves and the T6 as 5 (top score) and gave every other school a 1.

I was merely being comical. I understand perfectly well what was being said. Instead of looking at what firms think of you, which is also a terrible metric, you should look at *gasp* actual employment data.

I don't want to go off-topic in an Emory board though.