In at NYU Forum

[c_dubya_s]

What kind of law are you looking towards?

I'm not absolutely sure yet, but I do want to keep the option of biglaw at a major city (LA, NY, DC) open.

I'm not 100% sure about this, but I think Penn and NYU place very similarly into just about every market. I'm sure NYU has an advantage in NYC, but I wouldn't be surprised if Penn outplaced NYU in many other markets.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong about this.

Personally, I would take NYU, but that is because of the programs at NYU and the opportunity to live and go to school in Manhattan. I don't think there is a clear winner here. Two reasonable people could definitely come up with a different, rational decision.

IIRC, Penn outplaced NYU on the NLJ250. Penn had 53.31% of their 2010 graduates take associate positions at NLJ250 firms (4th place behind Chicago, Cornell, and Columbia), while NYU had 43.27% (9th place). From what I've seen and heard, NYU's PI focus doesn't exist quite as much at Penn (perhaps someone can find data to back me up on this), and Penn seems to have more graduates interested in BigLaw work. Also, at Penn's ASW, a number of students talked about interviewing for major LA firms and getting offers from major LA firms, so I know they do have a presence in that market.

I have (in the case of GULC, had) similar offers to you, and I eliminated NYU because of cost, despite my desire to live in NYC. I think it's an awesome school, but not quite awesome enough to convince me to pay sticker when I had other (less expensive) options elsewhere that placed just as well for my interests. Find out which school fits your interests (both inside the classroom and outside), and choose based on that. If you think NYU's the school for you, then it might be worth paying sticker.

[thecilent]

From what I've seen and heard, NYU's PI focus doesn't exist quite as much at Penn

What? No

and Penn seems to have more graduates interested in BigLaw work.

And yeah, this

[c_dubya_s]

And is it ever fair to say that the competition is less intense at lower-ranked T14s than within T6 schools? I've definitely heard varying things...

Look at the Princeton Review's law school rankings. They ranked them based off of competitiveness (i.e. number of hours the students report studying, number of hours they sleep, etc.) and the T4 schools placed highest. Apparently, the average number of hours spent studying by students is highest in T4 schools. I believe NYU has the 2nd-fewest hours spent studying per student in the T14 (behind Yale), according to this data (from 2007): http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... rev-2.html

Also, according to the Princeton Review's website, the most competitive law school in their 2011 rankings is Baylor. Cooley somehow placed 5th (completely not kidding--someone can go to Princeton Review's website and verify that).

[c_dubya_s]

From what I've seen and heard, NYU's PI focus doesn't exist quite as much at Penn

What? No

and Penn seems to have more graduates interested in BigLaw work.

And yeah, this

I'll defer to theclient on this one--I definitely could be wrong. I'm basing my answer mostly off of the percentage of graduates who go into PI-type work (which I think is around 2% for Penn, and significantly higher for NYU).

[ahduth]

And is it ever fair to say that the competition is less intense at lower-ranked T14s than within T6 schools? I've definitely heard varying things...

Look at the Princeton Review's law school rankings. They ranked them based off of competitiveness (i.e. number of hours the students report studying, number of hours they sleep, etc.) and the T4 schools placed highest. Apparently, the average number of hours spent studying by students is highest in T4 schools. I believe NYU has the 2nd-fewest hours spent studying per student in the T14 (behind Yale), according to this data (from 2007): http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... rev-2.html

Also, according to the Princeton Review's website, the most competitive law school in their 2011 rankings is Baylor. Cooley somehow placed 5th (completely not kidding--someone can go to Princeton Review's website and verify that).

Without looking at any data, I'd assumed the lower the ranking, the more competitive. Employers won't reach as deeply into the classes of lower ranked schools, so you have more motivation to kill it.

There's a vastly more dangerous argument that would revolve around the students at those lower ranked schools actually needing to study more to get the material, but that's a political minefield I don't want to get involved with.

[thecilent]

From what I've seen and heard, NYU's PI focus doesn't exist quite as much at Penn

What? No

and Penn seems to have more graduates interested in BigLaw work.

And yeah, this

I'll defer to theclient on this one--I definitely could be wrong. I'm basing my answer mostly off of the percentage of graduates who go into PI-type work (which I think is around 2% for Penn, and significantly higher for NYU).

Yeah, maybe you wrote the first quote wrong or I am reading it wrong

[sgtgrumbles]

From what I've seen and heard, NYU's PI focus doesn't exist quite as much at Penn

What? No

and Penn seems to have more graduates interested in BigLaw work.

And yeah, this

I'll defer to theclient on this one--I definitely could be wrong. I'm basing my answer mostly off of the percentage of graduates who go into PI-type work (which I think is around 2% for Penn, and significantly higher for NYU).

Yeah, maybe you wrote the first quote wrong or I am reading it wrong

c_dubya_s meant NYU places more students into PI than Penn, explaining why its NLJ number is lower than Penn's: a fair share of students went into (presumably prestigious) PI jobs. I've heard Penn has a sizable PI community, but it seems beyond doubt that NYU's is larger.

[ahduth]

This last NLJ250 number for NYU was kind of out of whack too. I'm pretty wary into reading a great deal into the one year.

This 2009 chart is great for comparing the size of the PI cohort from each school:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1#p4183617

[c_dubya_s]

This last NLJ250 number for NYU was kind of out of whack too. I'm pretty wary into reading a great deal into the one year.

This 2009 chart is great for comparing the size of the PI cohort from each school:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1#p4183617

I checked a couple of years back just out of curiousity, and NYU and Penn have historically been neck-in-neck in NLJ250 placement. NYU was 8th in 2009 (with around 50%), and 4th in 2008 (with around 65%). Penn was 7th in 2009 and 3rd in 2008, so there's a little more of a gap this past year than in 2008-2009 between the two.

Although the NLJ250 might not be the best approximation for BigLaw placement, it's the best one I've been able to find so far. For whatever reason, I can't get the graphs for the T15 to load on adhuth's link right now--but I have seen them in the past, and they're an amazing resource.

[somewhere]

And is it ever fair to say that the competition is less intense at lower-ranked T14s than within T6 schools? I've definitely heard varying things...

Look at the Princeton Review's law school rankings. They ranked them based off of competitiveness (i.e. number of hours the students report studying, number of hours they sleep, etc.) and the T4 schools placed highest. Apparently, the average number of hours spent studying by students is highest in T4 schools. I believe NYU has the 2nd-fewest hours spent studying per student in the T14 (behind Yale), according to this data (from 2007): http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... rev-2.html

Also, according to the Princeton Review's website, the most competitive law school in their 2011 rankings is Baylor. Cooley somehow placed 5th (completely not kidding--someone can go to Princeton Review's website and verify that).

Without looking at any data, I'd assumed the lower the ranking, the more competitive. Employers won't reach as deeply into the classes of lower ranked schools, so you have more motivation to kill it.

There's a vastly more dangerous argument that would revolve around the students at those lower ranked schools actually needing to study more to get the material, but that's a political minefield I don't want to get involved with.

I've also heard that according to (at least some) people who transferred-up, the atmosphere is more relaxed and less intensely grade-focused at the school(s) they transferred into— presumably because of your first explanation: the lower the rank, the more grades matter. Of course, a contributing factor might be selection here, since the transfer students might have been more stressed about grades while they were planning to transfer, and felt relief once they had; and also that everybody's more stressed about grades first year. I'm sure this isn't a perfect correlation when you're looking at one or two spots in the rankings, but it does make sense on a larger scale.

Also, a problem with PI statistics might be that PI is differently defined for different organizations, institutions, interests. I believe the administrator in charge of public interest at NYU said during the admitted students days I attended that in the ballpark of 15+%, or even 20%, of the graduating class is a pretty typical amount going into public interest as they define it there. (Sometimes there are ambiguities, of course, and even discrepancies between scholarship definitions, definitions for LRAP qualification, definitions for federal IBR qualification, etc.)

[incompetentia]

The NLJ number from this year does look pretty alarming compared to previous years, but blah blah the economy blah blah one year blah who knows.


*not going for biglaw*


But seriously, from the sense I got at ASW, there are a fair number of people going back to the West Coast (although very few heading to the center of the country...but who wants to go there, amirite).

[Stanford4Me]

I hope everyone enjoyed day 1 of ASW.

[incompetentia]

The "screw you" posts make much more sense now

[MyohMy45]

Jumping threads to see if anyone here can answer my question:

Went DLS on 4/7 (over 1 week now), still have no purple envelope, no access to ASW, no rejection email, no waitlist email (yes I checked the junk folder)... what's going on? Did anyone else have this happen to them?

I'm trying not to lose sleep over this if someone could tell me this was normal then I'd feel slightly better

[incompetentia]

Best thing you can do is probably call.

[pulandasu]

Fellow future classmates (hopefully!), I would really appreciate your thoughts/advice.

Situation:
I am trying to create a dual degree at NYU Law and with a grad program at some other university. The problem is that NYU already offers that grad program. So, I am writing a petition to NYU Law to allow me to pursue my own dual degree program. I already have permissions from other law schools to do this, but NYU is my top choice.

If NYU grants me approval, I still need to submit a similar petition to NY Court of Appeals (basically, to waive a strict requirement on one of their rules). I was told this is a relatively easy process, but will take 2~10 weeks.

Dilemma:
Even if I get an approval from NYU Law, I still need to go through the petitioning process with the Court which will take 2~10 weeks, way after deposit deadline. In the slimmest chance, it doesn't go through - I will have to attend law school elsewhere. I know NYU deposit letter says I need to withdraw from other law schools, but how strict is this? I am thinking of putting a deposit down at NYU and another law school which I got a permission to do so (as a backup). I read elsewhere that LSAC doesn't notify until June 15 of students deposit information to schools.

[sgtgrumbles]

Pulandasu, it sounds like you've been very straightforward with NYU, and they with you. Have you considered asking them to waive the withdrawal requirement given your unusual circumstance? That would be my next move. I would seriously caution you against disobeying the rules set out in the deposit form unless you have that permission. Doing so without permission could jeopardize your acceptance to NYU and raise potential ethical problems that could come up during your character and fitness evaluation, or so it seems.

[pulandasu]

Pulandasu, it sounds like you've been very straightforward with NYU, and they with you. Have you considered asking them to waive the withdrawal requirement given your unusual circumstance? That would be my next move. I would seriously caution you against disobeying the rules set out in the deposit form unless you have that permission. Doing so without permission could jeopardize your acceptance to NYU and raise potential ethical problems that could come up during your character and fitness evaluation, or so it seems.

Thanks - that sounds like a solid, logical move.

[birdlaw117]

Pulandasu, it sounds like you've been very straightforward with NYU, and they with you. Have you considered asking them to waive the withdrawal requirement given your unusual circumstance? That would be my next move. I would seriously caution you against disobeying the rules set out in the deposit form unless you have that permission. Doing so without permission could jeopardize your acceptance to NYU and raise potential ethical problems that could come up during your character and fitness evaluation, or so it seems.

I second sgtgrumbles. They're reasonable people and you have reasonable concerns. Waiving that requirement would make you more likely to attend, and they definitely want you to matriculate. I don't see why they wouldn't allow it. Good luck!

[meryl]

Has everyone gotten their financial aid award already?
Mine has been under review since the end of Feb

[miamiman09]

Went UR on FAAPS 4/5 and just got the FinAid email today! $25k for each of the first two years, then $12,500 for the third year. However, if I go into PI work for the second summer, it stays at $25k in the third year.

Still trying to decide between NYU and Columbia. I was leaning toward CLS but with potentially $50k more overall from NYU the equation has changed slightly...

[mst]

Went UR on FAAPS 4/5 and just got the FinAid email today! $25k for each of the first two years, then $12,500 for the third year. However, if I go into PI work for the second summer, it stays at $25k in the third year.

Still trying to decide between NYU and Columbia. I was leaning toward CLS but with potentially $50k more overall from NYU the equation has changed slightly...

You'd be crazy to turn down 50k from nyu for cls. They are practically the same school in terms of prestige, quality, opportunities, etc...

[miamiman09]

Went UR on FAAPS 4/5 and just got the FinAid email today! $25k for each of the first two years, then $12,500 for the third year. However, if I go into PI work for the second summer, it stays at $25k in the third year.

Still trying to decide between NYU and Columbia. I was leaning toward CLS but with potentially $50k more overall from NYU the equation has changed slightly...

You'd be crazy to turn down 50k from nyu for cls. They are practically the same school in terms of prestige, quality, opportunities, etc...

Agreed. Hence the change in the equation

Waiting to see if CLS will match or at least come close.

[cawquette]

Went UR on FAAPS 4/5 and just got the FinAid email today! $25k for each of the first two years, then $12,500 for the third year. However, if I go into PI work for the second summer, it stays at $25k in the third year.

Still trying to decide between NYU and Columbia. I was leaning toward CLS but with potentially $50k more overall from NYU the equation has changed slightly...

You'd be crazy to turn down 50k from nyu for cls. They are practically the same school in terms of prestige, quality, opportunities, etc...

Agreed. Hence the change in the equation

Waiting to see if CLS will match or at least come close.

morningside heights is so depressing and isolated. the village is vibrant. my brother goes to columbia for grad school and i feel like it is a schlep to go anywhere to do anything exciting from his place. then again, if you like to retreat into more calm surroundings and take a break from the hustle-n-bustle, CLS may be a better choice for you. just my thoughts! congrats on both =)

[pulandasu]

Thanks for all your help.

My petition today was denied by the school. I've asked for an explanation hoping they can overturn the decision, but highly unlikely. I guess they need to be loyal to other grad programs within their university.