snob appeal of your undergraduate institution Forum

[crackberry]

The point is that an average student at Harvard has a 0.4 advantage over the average student at OSU. That's a huge boost for GPA, bearing in mind how little GPA matters for law school admissions to begin with.

Oh come on. Yes, you and your 2.46 may have gotten into Northwestern, but you wouldn't have had a snowball's chance in hell at the T6.

It's difficult to detect on this medium, but I think Rayiner was being sarcastic...

Eh, I don't think so actually.

[turkishangora]

sf

[09042014]

The point is that an average student at Harvard has a 0.4 advantage over the average student at OSU. That's a huge boost for GPA, bearing in mind how little GPA matters for law school admissions to begin with.

Oh come on. Yes, you and your 2.46 may have gotten into Northwestern, but you wouldn't have had a snowball's chance in hell at the T6.

It's difficult to detect on this medium, but I think Rayiner was being sarcastic...

Eh, I don't think so actually.

He wasn't being sarcastic and he is right. CCN takes people with 3.5's. That is near median at grade inflated schools. But not scoring in the top 5% of LSAT takers is a kiss of death even with 4.0.

The rule of thumb is that you LSAT gets you accepted and GPA gets you rejected. Three correct answers on a test can surmount 4 years of mediocre performance. And not just mediocre at a top undergrad, but mediocre at downright shitty schools.

[09042014]

The average grade awarded at Harvard is 3.45, the average grade awarded at OSU is 3.04.

That is a .4 boost built in.

Absolutely, since the student bodies are basically interchangeable and grades are awarded purely on merit rather than essentially arbitrary curves.

The point is that an average student at Harvard has a 0.4 advantage over the average student at OSU. That's a huge boost for GPA, bearing in mind how little GPA matters for law school admissions to begin with.

Seriously guys? Cmon... enough of the P.C.... I would bet $$$$ that a HYP student with a 3.4 GPA would have earned a 3.8+ at OSU. Realistically, for law schools your better off going to OSU and crushing it there than going to HYP even with a .4 higher GPA average.

And yes HYP rejected me (well I didn't apply to P)..

There are some students at HY and other Ivies who got the 3.4 because they were not hard workers, and they would not do well at OSU. In fact they might do worse, because OSU isn't afraid to give C's, D's and F's.

There are also student's who work their ass off, but get that A- because they aren't naturally brilliant, just smart. These students would do better at OSU, but .4 better? Maybe, but I doubt it.

Princeton is trying to grade deflate, but at most of the Ivy league you've got to try to get a C.

[Nom Sawyer]

Absolutely, since the student bodies are basically interchangeable and grades are awarded purely on merit rather than essentially arbitrary curves.

The point is that an average student at Harvard has a 0.4 advantage over the average student at OSU. That's a huge boost for GPA, bearing in mind how little GPA matters for law school admissions to begin with.

Seriously guys? Cmon... enough of the P.C.... I would bet $$$$ that a HYP student with a 3.4 GPA would have earned a 3.8+ at OSU. Realistically, for law schools your better off going to OSU and crushing it there than going to HYP even with a .4 higher GPA average.

And yes HYP rejected me (well I didn't apply to P)..

There are some students at HY and other Ivies who got the 3.4 because they were not hard workers, and they would not do well at OSU. In fact they might do worse, because OSU isn't afraid to give C's, D's and F's.

There are also student's who work their ass off, but get that A- because they aren't naturally brilliant, just smart. These students would do better at OSU, but .4 better? Maybe, but I doubt it.

Princeton is trying to grade deflate, but at most of the Ivy league you've got to try to get a C.

Again, if a student has a 3.4 at HYP that means he's Median (i.e. lets say right in the middle).

You're telling me that someone who got into HYP, and then did as well as at least half of all the other students there, would do worse at OSU just cause there are more Cs,Ds, and Fs???

I think you and Rayiner usually are spot on, but in this... its just not realistic.

[crackberry]

He wasn't being sarcastic and he is right. CCN takes people with 3.5's. That is near median at grade inflated schools. But not scoring in the top 5% of LSAT takers is a kiss of death even with 4.0.

The rule of thumb is that you LSAT gets you accepted and GPA gets you rejected. Three correct answers on a test can surmount 4 years of mediocre performance. And not just mediocre at a top undergrad, but mediocre at downright shitty schools.

I never said GPA matters as much as LSAT, but it definitely matters, especially at T6. A non-URM CANNOT get into HYS with below a 3.6, even with a 180. It is hard to get into CCN with below a 3.4, regardless of your LSAT.

GPA definitely matters less than the LSAT, but it also definitely matters. Rayiner was saying GPA doesn't matter. That is wrong.

[09042014]

The point is that an average student at Harvard has a 0.4 advantage over the average student at OSU. That's a huge boost for GPA, bearing in mind how little GPA matters for law school admissions to begin with.

Seriously guys? Cmon... enough of the P.C.... I would bet $$$$ that a HYP student with a 3.4 GPA would have earned a 3.8+ at OSU. Realistically, for law schools your better off going to OSU and crushing it there than going to HYP even with a .4 higher GPA average.

And yes HYP rejected me (well I didn't apply to P)..

There are some students at HY and other Ivies who got the 3.4 because they were not hard workers, and they would not do well at OSU. In fact they might do worse, because OSU isn't afraid to give C's, D's and F's.

There are also student's who work their ass off, but get that A- because they aren't naturally brilliant, just smart. These students would do better at OSU, but .4 better? Maybe, but I doubt it.

Princeton is trying to grade deflate, but at most of the Ivy league you've got to try to get a C.

Again, if a student has a 3.4 at HYP that means he's Median (i.e. lets say right in the middle).

You're telling me that someone who got into HYP, and then did as well as at least half of all the other students there, would do worse at OSU just cause there are more Cs, Ds, and Fs???

I think you and Rayiner usually are spot on, but in this... its just not realistic.

A 3.5 is just above median at Harvard, and is Cum Laude at OSU. From a google search, that used to be top 10%, but its like more like top 15-20% at OSU.

Yes I believe the top 15% at OSU are better students than the 45th percentile at Harvard, considering 32% of OSU students did better than a 30 on the LSAT, and 25% of Harvard students did worse than a 31.

There is a significant level of students with Harvard level talent at flagship public schools. Middle class families in the midwest don't send their kids to the ivy leagues. It just isn't done. Though I heard that they've revamped their financial aid to accommodate middle class families recently. But when I applied, I would have had to pay 2-3 times what UIUC cost.

I would have been competitive at the ivy league, top 2% of my high school class, 33 ACT taken cold, and I still ended up bottom third at UIUC, because I'm a lazy son of a bitch. I'm sure there are plenty of people like me at the Ivy leagues. High school coursework, which is what a large part of college admissions are based on, are not great indicators of success in college.

[prezidentv8]

Yes I believe the top 15% at OSU are better students than the 45th percentile at Harvard, considering 32% of OSU students did better than a 30 on the LSAT, and 25% of Harvard students did worse than a 31.

[09042014]

He wasn't being sarcastic and he is right. CCN takes people with 3.5's. That is near median at grade inflated schools. But not scoring in the top 5% of LSAT takers is a kiss of death even with 4.0.

The rule of thumb is that you LSAT gets you accepted and GPA gets you rejected. Three correct answers on a test can surmount 4 years of mediocre performance. And not just mediocre at a top undergrad, but mediocre at downright shitty schools.

I never said GPA matters as much as LSAT, but it definitely matters, especially at T6. A non-URM CANNOT get into HYS with below a 3.6, even with a 180. It is hard to get into CCN with below a 3.4, regardless of your LSAT.

GPA definitely matters less than the LSAT, but it also definitely matters. Rayiner was saying GPA doesn't matter. That is wrong.

He was saying it matters very little, and I think he's right. Each school has a cut off GPA, below which they won't accept, but below HYS, that gpa cut off is very crappy. 3.4 is a pretty terrible gpa considering they are applying to some of the best law schools in America.

Gpa is very undervalued in law school admissions. Mostly because high Gpa's are common and high LSAT's are not. Also because GPA's are equal, like we've all been arguing about.

[prezidentv8]

High school [strike]coursework[/strike], which is what a large part of college admissions are based on, [strike]are[/strike] is not a great indicator of [strike]success in college.[/strike] much at all.

[rayiner]

The point is that an average student at Harvard has a 0.4 advantage over the average student at OSU. That's a huge boost for GPA, bearing in mind how little GPA matters for law school admissions to begin with.

Oh come on. Yes, you and your 2.46 may have gotten into Northwestern, but you wouldn't have had a snowball's chance in hell at the T6.

And? My GPA is the percentile equivalent of like a 145, yet it got me into a T14. A 3.3 at a grade-inflated private school (LSAT equivalent of 150) is sufficient for T10. A 3.5 (LSAT equivalent of 155) is sufficient for T6. A 3.7 (LSAT equivalent of 160) is sufficient for T3.

When a top 10% GPA is plenty for HLS but a top 1% LSAT is required, then I think it's entirely fair to say that GPA doesn't matter much for law school admissions. It does matter somewhat, but in very coarse gradations (< 3.3, 3.3-3.7, 3.7 - 3.9, > 3.9), not nearly enough to be worth all the analysis between class competitiveness being argued in this thread.

[prezidentv8]

The point is that an average student at Harvard has a 0.4 advantage over the average student at OSU. That's a huge boost for GPA, bearing in mind how little GPA matters for law school admissions to begin with.

Oh come on. Yes, you and your 2.46 may have gotten into Northwestern, but you wouldn't have had a snowball's chance in hell at the T6.

And? My GPA is the percentile equivalent of like a 145, yet it got me into a T14. A 3.3 at a grade-inflated private school (LSAT equivalent of 150) is sufficient for T10. A 3.5 (LSAT equivalent of 155) is sufficient for T6. A 3.7 (LSAT equivalent of 160) is sufficient for T3.

When a top 10% GPA is plenty for HLS but a top 1% LSAT is required, then I think it's entirely fair to say that GPA doesn't matter much for law school admissions. It does matter somewhat, but in very coarse gradations (< 3.3, 3.3-3.7, 3.7 - 3.9, > 3.9), not nearly enough to be worth all the analysis between class competitiveness being argued in this thread.

For the wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin

[crackberry]

The point is that an average student at Harvard has a 0.4 advantage over the average student at OSU. That's a huge boost for GPA, bearing in mind how little GPA matters for law school admissions to begin with.

Oh come on. Yes, you and your 2.46 may have gotten into Northwestern, but you wouldn't have had a snowball's chance in hell at the T6.

And? My GPA is the percentile equivalent of like a 145, yet it got me into a T14. A 3.3 at a grade-inflated private school (LSAT equivalent of 150) is sufficient for T10. A 3.5 (LSAT equivalent of 155) is sufficient for T6. A 3.7 (LSAT equivalent of 160) is sufficient for T3.

When a top 10% GPA is plenty for HLS but a top 1% LSAT is required, then I think it's entirely fair to say that GPA doesn't matter much for law school admissions. It does matter somewhat, but in very coarse gradations (< 3.3, 3.3-3.7, 3.7 - 3.9, > 3.9), not nearly enough to be worth all the analysis between class competitiveness being argued in this thread.

GPA is the second most important factor in LS admissions. I'd say that means it matters.

[EijiMiyake]

The point is that an average student at Harvard has a 0.4 advantage over the average student at OSU. That's a huge boost for GPA, bearing in mind how little GPA matters for law school admissions to begin with.

Oh come on. Yes, you and your 2.46 may have gotten into Northwestern, but you wouldn't have had a snowball's chance in hell at the T6.

And? My GPA is the percentile equivalent of like a 145, yet it got me into a T14. A 3.3 at a grade-inflated private school (LSAT equivalent of 150) is sufficient for T10. A 3.5 (LSAT equivalent of 155) is sufficient for T6. A 3.7 (LSAT equivalent of 160) is sufficient for T3.

When a top 10% GPA is plenty for HLS but a top 1% LSAT is required, then I think it's entirely fair to say that GPA doesn't matter much for law school admissions. It does matter somewhat, but in very coarse gradations (< 3.3, 3.3-3.7, 3.7 - 3.9, > 3.9), not nearly enough to be worth all the analysis between class competitiveness being argued in this thread.

For the wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin

Agreed, and I am extremely thankful for the (possibly misguided) reliance on standardized testing.

[crackberry]

You guys are totally ridiculous. You can make the argument that UG major or even UG institution (below HYPS MIT) doesn't matter.

To argue that GPA doesn't matter is criminally insane.

I have already acknowledged that it matters less than the LSAT. I never questioned that.

[ughOSU]

The point is that an average student at Harvard has a 0.4 advantage over the average student at OSU. That's a huge boost for GPA, bearing in mind how little GPA matters for law school admissions to begin with.

Oh come on. Yes, you and your 2.46 may have gotten into Northwestern, but you wouldn't have had a snowball's chance in hell at the T6.

And? My GPA is the percentile equivalent of like a 145, yet it got me into a T14. A 3.3 at a grade-inflated private school (LSAT equivalent of 150) is sufficient for T10. A 3.5 (LSAT equivalent of 155) is sufficient for T6. A 3.7 (LSAT equivalent of 160) is sufficient for T3.

When a top 10% GPA is plenty for HLS but a top 1% LSAT is required, then I think it's entirely fair to say that GPA doesn't matter much for law school admissions. It does matter somewhat, but in very coarse gradations (< 3.3, 3.3-3.7, 3.7 - 3.9, > 3.9), not nearly enough to be worth all the analysis between class competitiveness being argued in this thread.

pwned. This is at least partially why law schools rely on LSAT so much... because GPAs vary greatly across majors and institutions. That said, I know people who went to state school and graduated with a degree in economics who couldn't do calculus. How? I don't know.

[prezidentv8]

I am extremely thankful for the (possibly misguided) reliance on standardized testing.

As am I. 3.7 from Local State U looks like shit (well, to the TLS/elite law adcom crowds) without that 171.

[prezidentv8]

You guys are totally ridiculous. You can make the argument that UG major or even UG institution (below HYPS MIT) doesn't matter.

To argue that GPA doesn't matter is criminally insane.

I have already acknowledged that it matters less than the LSAT. I never questioned that.

To be fair, you're right on both of these, but I think the winds of the conversation changed direction a bit.

[Nom Sawyer]

Seriously guys? Cmon... enough of the P.C.... I would bet $$$$ that a HYP student with a 3.4 GPA would have earned a 3.8+ at OSU. Realistically, for law schools your better off going to OSU and crushing it there than going to HYP even with a .4 higher GPA average.

And yes HYP rejected me (well I didn't apply to P)..

There are some students at HY and other Ivies who got the 3.4 because they were not hard workers, and they would not do well at OSU. In fact they might do worse, because OSU isn't afraid to give C's, D's and F's.

There are also student's who work their ass off, but get that A- because they aren't naturally brilliant, just smart. These students would do better at OSU, but .4 better? Maybe, but I doubt it.

Princeton is trying to grade deflate, but at most of the Ivy league you've got to try to get a C.

Again, if a student has a 3.4 at HYP that means he's Median (i.e. lets say right in the middle).

You're telling me that someone who got into HYP, and then did as well as at least half of all the other students there, would do worse at OSU just cause there are more Cs, Ds, and Fs???

I think you and Rayiner usually are spot on, but in this... its just not realistic.

A 3.5 is just above median at Harvard, and is Cum Laude at OSU. From a google search, that used to be top 10%, but its like more like top 15-20% at OSU.

Yes I believe the top 15% at OSU are better students than the 45th percentile at Harvard, considering 32% of OSU students did better than a 30 on the LSAT, and 25% of Harvard students did worse than a 31.

There is a significant level of students with Harvard level talent at flagship public schools. Middle class families in the midwest don't send their kids to the ivy leagues. It just isn't done. Though I heard that they've revamped their financial aid to accommodate middle class families recently. But when I applied, I would have had to pay 2-3 times what UIUC cost.

I would have been competitive at the ivy league, top 2% of my high school class, 33 ACT taken cold, and I still ended up bottom third at UIUC, because I'm a lazy son of a bitch. I'm sure there are plenty of people like me at the Ivy leagues. High school coursework, which is what a large part of college admissions are based on, are not great indicators of success in college.

Ok so based on your numbers (i'm assuming LSAT = ACT) only the bottom 25% of Harvard scored worse than the top 32% of OSU. Thus the 50th percentile will clearly score better or equal to the top 10~15% of OSU. Also i think your numbers might be skewed by the fact that a lot of people only take SAT and don't take ACT.

Further, when you say High School coursework is not great indicator of college success, I definitely agree, but the fact is HYP admissions are so competitive that they barely take high school success into account. Every single applicant is like valedictorian or close to it... usually you need that + a ton of extracurriculars + and basically a whole lot of other stuff.

These things all are great indicators of increased motivation and also just plain obsessiveness about grades. Thus a 50th percentile kid is almost guaranteed not to be that much of a slacker. One of the reasons the GPA at those schools are so high is that the kids will whine about a B.

So they aren't going to be as lazy as you or me.. altho I think u take the cake for laziness DesertFox.. a 178 LSAT and bottom 33% at UIUC lol. I sound like you (number 1 in highschool, 1580 SAT pretty cold, didn't attend ivy cause of cost) but managed to Rouse myself out of total lethargy every couple days in college haha.

[crackberry]

I agree that this thread has been derailed, but people have completely misinterpreted me and now think I'm trying to make the argument that GPA should matter more or as much as the LSAT or something.

Read my words people. If any of you think GPA doesn't matter, you're fucking morons. How many people in here have a sub-3.0 and have gotten into a T6 law school? THERE ARE GPA WALLS PEOPLE, JUST LIKE THERE ARE LSAT WALLS. Sure, the walls may be lower but that's not my goddamn point. Rayiner could have had a 180 and he never would have stood a chance at HYSCCN. That in itself proves my point.

[prezidentv8]

So they aren't going to be as lazy as you or me.. altho I think u take the cake for laziness DesertFox.. a 178 LSAT and bottom 33% at UIUC lol. I sound like you (number 1 in highschool, 1580 SAT pretty cold, didn't attend ivy cause of cost) but managed to rouse myself out of total lethargy every couple days in college haha.

Reminds me of high school me.

Never do homework, ace tests, play some sports, finish with nearly all Bs. Awesome. In retrospect, I could've done even less work...damn....

[crackberry]

Yeah I never heard of the ACT until college. No one in the NE or California takes the ACT. It's a Midwesterners' test, for whatever reason.

[EijiMiyake]

You guys are totally ridiculous. You can make the argument that UG major or even UG institution (below HYPS MIT) doesn't matter.

To argue that GPA doesn't matter is criminally insane.

I have already acknowledged that it matters less than the LSAT. I never questioned that.

It's not that I think that GPA doesn't matter - it's just that slight differences in GPA due to institutional differencess become unimportant. If you think you had a raw deal by going to a grade deflated undergrad, then go get a 180 - you'll still get into a T6 and be just fine.

[rayiner]

Again, if a student has a 3.4 at HYP that means he's Median (i.e. lets say right in the middle).

You're telling me that someone who got into HYP, and then did as well as at least half of all the other students there, would do worse at OSU just cause there are more Cs,Ds, and Fs???

I think you and Rayiner usually are spot on, but in this... its just not realistic.

I know tons of people at HYPS. Heck, I have a bunch here at NU as classmates. They're smart, but the rigor of the schools is not so different that someone who only did median at HYPS would necessarily be top 5-10% (which is what 3.8+ corresponds to) at a top state school.

Again, if HYPS kids were being so unfairly slighted in admissions, you'd think they'd consistently wind up at the top of the class in law school. Looking at 10 random people from our Law Review, you've got 1 person from HYPS, 1 person from a top LAC, and 8 people who went to everything from University of New Mexico to Duke. That is actually pretty much just the distribution of undergraduate institutions we have...

[Rawlsian]

The point is that an average student at Harvard has a 0.4 advantage over the average student at OSU. That's a huge boost for GPA, bearing in mind how little GPA matters for law school admissions to begin with.

Oh come on. Yes, you and your 2.46 may have gotten into Northwestern, but you wouldn't have had a snowball's chance in hell at the T6.

And? My GPA is the percentile equivalent of like a 145, yet it got me into a T14. A 3.3 at a grade-inflated private school (LSAT equivalent of 150) is sufficient for T10. A 3.5 (LSAT equivalent of 155) is sufficient for T6. A 3.7 (LSAT equivalent of 160) is sufficient for T3.

When a top 10% GPA is plenty for HLS but a top 1% LSAT is required, then I think it's entirely fair to say that GPA doesn't matter much for law school admissions. It does matter somewhat, but in very coarse gradations (< 3.3, 3.3-3.7, 3.7 - 3.9, > 3.9), not nearly enough to be worth all the analysis between class competitiveness being argued in this thread.

GPA is the second most important factor in LS admissions. I'd say that means it matters.

I really did think he was being sarcastic. Like I said, difficulty interpreting sarcasm (or lack thereof)... However, I agree, GPA absolutely does matter, I'm not going over to that side...