0L Ladies - Female C/O 2019 Applicants Forum

[barley]

Had some good results today for scholarship negotiations! Just wanted to encourage all of you to negotiate, negotiate, negotiate

Congrats!

[Hildegard15]

Had some good results today for scholarship negotiations! Just wanted to encourage all of you to negotiate, negotiate, negotiate

Love to see good things happen to the ladies here! Congrats!!!!!

[genericwit]

I haven't been here in a while and I hope people don't get upset by this topic...but does anyone else feel like they aren't being as assertive as the men wrt scholly negotiation? Like it seems to me that some of the guys I know feel a lot more entitled to ask for more money, while I feel bad and feel like I'm looking like a spoiled brat. I hope this isn't my own internalized crap and was wondering if others could relate, especially as it is the season for this.

Totally with you. I've been trying to go about it in a polite, but assertive way - but it definitely has me out of my shell. I was actually at an ASW and someone came up to our group (all ladies) and said "You have to negotiate. An admissions person told me that women don't negotiate nearly as often as men do." Seems like a common phenomena. Just remember - you're advocating for your value and this is your future (i.e. how much debt you have to carry, how it may limit your career, etc.).

I forgot where I read this, but women also don't negotiate as often/aggressively as men do when it comes to salaries as well. I can totally see that happening in law school admissions/financial aid as well.

This is 100% true -- and the crusher when you think about it is that most of the time after salary is first established, raises are in terms of percentage of base pay, so if you've ever looked at a retirement-account estimator...you know that that difference compounds pretty drastically over time. My former (female) manager gave me a book called "Women Don't Ask" and made me promise to negotiate when I was offered a full-time position from my internship; I did, and I've negotiated most raises since then, pretty aggressively too (since it was with her so I felt comfortable-ish), and quite successfully. (Negotiating with anyone else still makes me pee myself. Don't worry.) But: YOU SHOULD DO IT ANYWAY. Do market research and come armed with hard data; I used Glassdoor for similar positions. Worst case, they say no (which has also happened to me); no one is going to fire you (unless you ask for a million dollars; that's the other helpful thing Glassdoor is for -- helping YOU get a sense of what's reasonable), and in fact, they will likely respect you more. I've been told that explicitly.

Also, a helpful tip I got was to frame it like this: "I'm loyal to this company and I would like to be able to stay here and continue working with this team. Higher compensation would make it easier for me to do that. Are you able to offer a higher salary?" Don't be the person to give the number; they'll often surprise you. Make it clear that they're getting value out of it -- you being more likely to stay. Same thing carries over to schools. They clearly want you, or they wouldn't have let you in. "Because of [a, b, and c reasons -- e.g., its award-winning faculty, its strong academic concentration in human trafficking], [X Law School] is my top / one of my top choices, and I would absolutely love to be able to attend. A lighter financial burden would make that decision much easier for me. Are you able to offer a higher scholarship?"

Thanks for the tips. I used the latter strategy in my scholarship negotiations. Also, I bought that book on Amazon. Even if it winds up not being as helpful in these scholarship negotiations, with deposits due so soon, it definitely sounds like a good resource to have in the future.

[birdstheword]

I haven't been here in a while and I hope people don't get upset by this topic...but does anyone else feel like they aren't being as assertive as the men wrt scholly negotiation? Like it seems to me that some of the guys I know feel a lot more entitled to ask for more money, while I feel bad and feel like I'm looking like a spoiled brat. I hope this isn't my own internalized crap and was wondering if others could relate, especially as it is the season for this.

Totally with you. I've been trying to go about it in a polite, but assertive way - but it definitely has me out of my shell. I was actually at an ASW and someone came up to our group (all ladies) and said "You have to negotiate. An admissions person told me that women don't negotiate nearly as often as men do." Seems like a common phenomena. Just remember - you're advocating for your value and this is your future (i.e. how much debt you have to carry, how it may limit your career, etc.).

I forgot where I read this, but women also don't negotiate as often/aggressively as men do when it comes to salaries as well. I can totally see that happening in law school admissions/financial aid as well.

This is 100% true -- and the crusher when you think about it is that most of the time after salary is first established, raises are in terms of percentage of base pay, so if you've ever looked at a retirement-account estimator...you know that that difference compounds pretty drastically over time. My former (female) manager gave me a book called "Women Don't Ask" and made me promise to negotiate when I was offered a full-time position from my internship; I did, and I've negotiated most raises since then, pretty aggressively too (since it was with her so I felt comfortable-ish), and quite successfully. (Negotiating with anyone else still makes me pee myself. Don't worry.) But: YOU SHOULD DO IT ANYWAY. Do market research and come armed with hard data; I used Glassdoor for similar positions. Worst case, they say no (which has also happened to me); no one is going to fire you (unless you ask for a million dollars; that's the other helpful thing Glassdoor is for -- helping YOU get a sense of what's reasonable), and in fact, they will likely respect you more. I've been told that explicitly.

Also, a helpful tip I got was to frame it like this: "I'm loyal to this company and I would like to be able to stay here and continue working with this team. Higher compensation would make it easier for me to do that. Are you able to offer a higher salary?" Don't be the person to give the number; they'll often surprise you. Make it clear that they're getting value out of it -- you being more likely to stay. Same thing carries over to schools. They clearly want you, or they wouldn't have let you in. "Because of [a, b, and c reasons -- e.g., its award-winning faculty, its strong academic concentration in human trafficking], [X Law School] is my top / one of my top choices, and I would absolutely love to be able to attend. A lighter financial burden would make that decision much easier for me. Are you able to offer a higher scholarship?"

Thanks for the tips. I used the latter strategy in my scholarship negotiations. Also, I bought that book on Amazon. Even if it winds up not being as helpful in these scholarship negotiations, with deposits due so soon, it definitely sounds like a good resource to have in the future.

GOOD LUCK!!! And regardless of what happens -- congratulations on being in this position to begin with!!

[slippin_jimmy]

I've had bad experiences negotiating within my own workplace (not bad, I guess, but disappointing). I guess I'm being analytical/thoughtful that negotiating most places still won't make them contenders with my other options, so I'd rather save everyone the time/money.

[RedWhite&Blonde]

I've had bad experiences negotiating within my own workplace (not bad, I guess, but disappointing). I guess I'm being analytical/thoughtful that negotiating most places still won't make them contenders with my other options, so I'd rather save everyone the time/money.

I get this attitude and I don't think it's a bad one to have at all. Especially because some schools straight up don't negotiate/don't match with lesser ranked schools.

That said, my sorority did a salary negotiation workshop and it was fabulous. The leaders suggested also negotiating perks too (not applicable for law school, sadly, but useful for later in life).

[ath]

I have a really hard time with scholarship and salary negotiations, and boundary setting in general; as other ladies have said, I'm afraid of coming off as entitled or spoiled if I ask for more than I'm initially given. That being said, what do y'all think is the best way to negotiate scholarships? Is it better to email or call the admissions office? I would just email, but I don't know if that's too casual? The idea of calling in and having to physically ask for money is kind of terrifying as well. What did those of you who successfully negotiated do?

Also praise that we're talking about this sort of thing because it's so encouraging to see women go out and get theirs, and to see that I'm not the only one who's having trepidation/anxiety about negotiations.

[ih8makingscreennames]

I don't know why I didn't post in this thread sooner. I sent out a negotiation email to Penn, and I sent out what I think was a well-crafted email to Gtown. The only place I'm really scared to negotiate is Columbia so I'm gonna err on the side of doing that in person next week. I feel like I'm going to be told no, but hey, I've gotta advocate for myself. This isn't a 10,000/year deficit . It's literally hundreds of thousands of dollars being paid out here.

[ChervonaKatya]

I have a really hard time with scholarship and salary negotiations, and boundary setting in general; as other ladies have said, I'm afraid of coming off as entitled or spoiled if I ask for more than I'm initially given. That being said, what do y'all think is the best way to negotiate scholarships? Is it better to email or call the admissions office? I would just email, but I don't know if that's too casual? The idea of calling in and having to physically ask for money is kind of terrifying as well. What did those of you who successfully negotiated do?

Also praise that we're talking about this sort of thing because it's so encouraging to see women go out and get theirs, and to see that I'm not the only one who's having trepidation/anxiety about negotiations.

Seconded on the praise. My executive director did her dissertation on women negotiating in the workplace and I mentioned this conversation and I think she was more excited than I am. (Unfortunately, she has never worked in law school admissions and didn't have specific law school scholarship advice.)

The general advice I've received about negotiating and which seems to be applicable to scholarships is to have a goal going in, ask a little above it to start, and have a minimum threshold that you don't mention but have in mind (these will vary school to school). You're not spoiled - you're asking for what your peers are getting and the admissions officer is not going to rescind your admission for asking for a scholarship. I understand the feeling, though. I would email first with your request so that it's formal, but offer to speak over the phone if they want. Frame it from the perspective of loving the school, but wanting to make the best and most rational decision for you and your future. Discussing the difference in cost of living/tuition compared to scholarship size would be one way to do this. Make a list of these reasons for each school you're negotiating with so that you know why you are asking for a certain amount and can say it with confidence and sincerity.

I've wondered if anyone has tried discussing the extra cost associated with paying the summer months of a lease in places that are difficult to sublet and that you are unlikely to stay in for the summer (i.e. Charlottesville, Ithaca, etc). This would only work with people comparing schools in smaller cities to those in like NYC, DC, SF, LA, but maybe it would work?

[lawandorder2019]

Thank you all for this discussion about the anxieties of negotiation, it really was comforting to read that I wasn't alone. But I wanted to post to let all you ladies know I have *finally* had some success with scholarship negotiation! The first school I tried negotiating with was not receptive at all, so I had lost most of my hope. But one of the T14 just came back with an offer that was double their original offer! There is hope!

[SlithyTove]

I don't know why I didn't post in this thread sooner. I sent out a negotiation email to Penn, and I sent out what I think was a well-crafted email to Gtown. The only place I'm really scared to negotiate is Columbia so I'm gonna err on the side of doing that in person next week. I feel like I'm going to be told no, but hey, I've gotta advocate for myself. This isn't a 10,000/year deficit . It's literally hundreds of thousands of dollars being paid out here.

Interested to hear if anyone has heard differently but from my understanding and in my experience, sending a formal email to the person whose name was on your original scholarship offer is definitely the way to go. My concern with showing up in person is that the person in charge of making that decision won't be available when you're there and you'll end up talking to someone who has little to no power or information. If I were in that situation I think I would send a formal reconsideration request email to whoever it is that you need to talk to but mention that you'll be in town and would be happy to discuss it in person if they would like. Some people (especially college admins in my experience) resent being surprised. I think they'll appreciate having all of your information in an email before you show up on their doorstep.

[tappatappatappa]

Post removed...

[SlithyTove]

I have a really hard time with scholarship and salary negotiations, and boundary setting in general; as other ladies have said, I'm afraid of coming off as entitled or spoiled if I ask for more than I'm initially given. That being said, what do y'all think is the best way to negotiate scholarships? Is it better to email or call the admissions office? I would just email, but I don't know if that's too casual? The idea of calling in and having to physically ask for money is kind of terrifying as well. What did those of you who successfully negotiated do?

Also praise that we're talking about this sort of thing because it's so encouraging to see women go out and get theirs, and to see that I'm not the only one who's having trepidation/anxiety about negotiations.

I would definitely start with an email but, as other posters have said, if they request a phone call discussion, go for it.

I also wanted to add that, if anyone hasn't seen them already, these threads are super useful and empowering:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =7&t=27221 (The first 20 pages of this thread are gold, the rest is just rehashing. Look for username "Wamanda" she had a lot of success and posted some great tips.)

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 22&t=79373 (The OP is all you need)

[SlithyTove]

I don't know why I didn't post in this thread sooner. I sent out a negotiation email to Penn, and I sent out what I think was a well-crafted email to Gtown. The only place I'm really scared to negotiate is Columbia so I'm gonna err on the side of doing that in person next week. I feel like I'm going to be told no, but hey, I've gotta advocate for myself. This isn't a 10,000/year deficit . It's literally hundreds of thousands of dollars being paid out here.

Interested to hear if anyone has heard differently but from my understanding and in my experience, sending a formal email to the person whose name was on your original scholarship offer is definitely the way to go. My concern with showing up in person is that the person in charge of making that decision won't be available when you're there and you'll end up talking to someone who has little to no power or information. If I were in that situation I think I would send a formal reconsideration request email to whoever it is that you need to talk to but mention that you'll be in town and would be happy to discuss it in person if they would like. Some people (especially college admins in my experience) resent being surprised. I think they'll appreciate having all of your information in an email before you show up on their doorstep.

Question about this - do you address the email to the person who signed the scholarship letter, or the person who sent the email with the scholarship letter attached? Because they are frequently different people...

I would say the person who signed it. They're generally the decision maker while the people who send the emails are often support people.

[ih8makingscreennames]

I don't know why I didn't post in this thread sooner. I sent out a negotiation email to Penn, and I sent out what I think was a well-crafted email to Gtown. The only place I'm really scared to negotiate is Columbia so I'm gonna err on the side of doing that in person next week. I feel like I'm going to be told no, but hey, I've gotta advocate for myself. This isn't a 10,000/year deficit . It's literally hundreds of thousands of dollars being paid out here.

Interested to hear if anyone has heard differently but from my understanding and in my experience, sending a formal email to the person whose name was on your original scholarship offer is definitely the way to go. My concern with showing up in person is that the person in charge of making that decision won't be available when you're there and you'll end up talking to someone who has little to no power or information. If I were in that situation I think I would send a formal reconsideration request email to whoever it is that you need to talk to but mention that you'll be in town and would be happy to discuss it in person if they would like. Some people (especially college admins in my experience) resent being surprised. I think they'll appreciate having all of your information in an email before you show up on their doorstep.

Well it came from Admissions. I'm a URM so I'm actually headed up a day early so it's like not during the official program. If I don't feel like it's the right person I'm definitely like not going to blurt it out to whomever. I also don't even know if I will like the school enough to pursue. However, there is time set aside for office hours type deal so I might find the right one.

[SlithyTove]

I don't know why I didn't post in this thread sooner. I sent out a negotiation email to Penn, and I sent out what I think was a well-crafted email to Gtown. The only place I'm really scared to negotiate is Columbia so I'm gonna err on the side of doing that in person next week. I feel like I'm going to be told no, but hey, I've gotta advocate for myself. This isn't a 10,000/year deficit . It's literally hundreds of thousands of dollars being paid out here.

Interested to hear if anyone has heard differently but from my understanding and in my experience, sending a formal email to the person whose name was on your original scholarship offer is definitely the way to go. My concern with showing up in person is that the person in charge of making that decision won't be available when you're there and you'll end up talking to someone who has little to no power or information. If I were in that situation I think I would send a formal reconsideration request email to whoever it is that you need to talk to but mention that you'll be in town and would be happy to discuss it in person if they would like. Some people (especially college admins in my experience) resent being surprised. I think they'll appreciate having all of your information in an email before you show up on their doorstep.

Well it came from Admissions. I'm a URM so I'm actually headed up a day early so it's like not during the official program. If I don't feel like it's the right person I'm definitely like not going to blurt it out to whomever. I also don't even know if I will like the school enough to pursue. However, there is time set aside for office hours type deal so I might find the right one.

I hope it goes well! Like I said, I've never heard of anyone negotiating in person so I'd love to know if they're receptive.

[zozo1717]

I have a really hard time with scholarship and salary negotiations, and boundary setting in general; as other ladies have said, I'm afraid of coming off as entitled or spoiled if I ask for more than I'm initially given. That being said, what do y'all think is the best way to negotiate scholarships? Is it better to email or call the admissions office? I would just email, but I don't know if that's too casual? The idea of calling in and having to physically ask for money is kind of terrifying as well. What did those of you who successfully negotiated do?

Also praise that we're talking about this sort of thing because it's so encouraging to see women go out and get theirs, and to see that I'm not the only one who's having trepidation/anxiety about negotiations.

I actually think email is the best approach. It makes it easier to put the info into your file and you can put more detail into an email than a phone call. Then they can put the request in your file and mark it for review @ their next committee meeting. Certainly, the tone should be more formal. A good structure that's worked for me is 1). Thanking them for their offer/offer of admissions 2). Brief (Sincere!) reasons why this school is a top choice 3). Mention other competitive offers that you are considering as well and a request that they (please!) review your current offer based on your continued interest in their school as a top choice & other offers you've received.

I've approached it as a mini-LOCI in some ways. I've also only contacted schools that I'm very seriously considering, so I've made sure to include sincere reasons why I want to attend (this should be brief), but respectfully presented other offers that I'm currently considering as well.

The best guidance I can say for moving past the feelings of entitlement is that the offices understand the position you are in. This is a very major life decision and potentially life-changing debt. Its reasonable to advocate for yourself, its reasonable to consider the best offer you have. There is certainly a way to approach it humbly while also advocating for yourself!

Please PM me if you'd like some specific advice.

[wellreallynow]

Has anyone tried negotiating with a T-3 school? I have a full ride at a T-6, which I'm hoping might be a bit of leverage, but I have no idea. (Choosing the t3 for my fiance, who's based in the same city, also bc it's better for my professional ambitions ((aka the LRAP is way way better)). I don't want to come off sounding like a brat but I would literally kill to be at this school.

[twokings]

My longtime boyfriend is going to be moving cities with me as I begin law school. In an ideal world, I would meet other women in committed relationships and our partners would all become friends. Does anyone know if that is typical or am I living in a dream? I realize it all depends on the culture and commonalities but imagine we won't be the only family adjusting to a new city, law school, etc. Any thoughts are welcome!

[barley]

Has anyone tried negotiating with a T-3 school? I have a full ride at a T-6, which I'm hoping might be a bit of leverage, but I have no idea. (Choosing the t3 for my fiance, who's based in the same city, also bc it's better for my professional ambitions ((aka the LRAP is way way better)). I don't want to come off sounding like a brat but I would literally kill to be at this school.

You don't sound like a brat at all! It's very responsible to try to get the best deal possible for yourself.

With that said, HYS only offer need-based aid, and each school only negotiates with need-based aid you get from the two other Top 3 schools. So I don't think your T6 full ride will help.

But congrats on the amazing options!!

[wellreallynow]

My longtime boyfriend is going to be moving cities with me as I begin law school. In an ideal world, I would meet other women in committed relationships and our partners would all become friends. Does anyone know if that is typical or am I living in a dream? I realize it all depends on the culture and commonalities but imagine we won't be the only family adjusting to a new city, law school, etc. Any thoughts are welcome!

If it makes you feel better, I'll be doing the same We've been together five years, so I'm really hoping to find a community of people similarly in LTRs!

[SlithyTove]

My longtime boyfriend is going to be moving cities with me as I begin law school. In an ideal world, I would meet other women in committed relationships and our partners would all become friends. Does anyone know if that is typical or am I living in a dream? I realize it all depends on the culture and commonalities but imagine we won't be the only family adjusting to a new city, law school, etc. Any thoughts are welcome!

If it makes you feel better, I'll be doing the same We've been together five years, so I'm really hoping to find a community of people similarly in LTRs!

I'm getting married this summer before moving wherever we end up so we'll be in the same boat too!

[schocolate]

My longtime boyfriend is going to be moving cities with me as I begin law school. In an ideal world, I would meet other women in committed relationships and our partners would all become friends. Does anyone know if that is typical or am I living in a dream? I realize it all depends on the culture and commonalities but imagine we won't be the only family adjusting to a new city, law school, etc. Any thoughts are welcome!

If it makes you feel better, I'll be doing the same We've been together five years, so I'm really hoping to find a community of people similarly in LTRs!

I'll be doing long-distance, but we'll be visiting each other fairly regularly. We've been together for almost 4.5 years now.

I think communities of married couples/couples in LTRs are fairly common, in my experience, especially considering the average age of incoming 1Ls. Some schools have specific groups, so you could look into that (if you haven't already)!

[texasellewoods]

My longtime boyfriend is going to be moving cities with me as I begin law school. In an ideal world, I would meet other women in committed relationships and our partners would all become friends. Does anyone know if that is typical or am I living in a dream? I realize it all depends on the culture and commonalities but imagine we won't be the only family adjusting to a new city, law school, etc. Any thoughts are welcome!

If it makes you feel better, I'll be doing the same We've been together five years, so I'm really hoping to find a community of people similarly in LTRs!

Me too!! KJD but we have dated all throughout college and are moving in together in the fall. He's moving cross country for me so finding friends for him would be great haha

[greenapples]

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