Chicago Law School c/o 2018 Applicants Forum

[Mal Reynolds]

You can get tech/IP/wall street/PI/startup work from UChicago, you'll just be paying $250k less for the opportunity. The myth is that you will be able to leverage your law degree into something not in the legal field for the first decade of your legal career.

[daedalus2309]

In response to the comments above, I would argue strongly that a Ruby is not better than HYS. I have many friends and family members in the legal profession and I have worked in numerous biglaw firms (V6). The reality is that brand matters. The legal profession is full of superficial prestige whores, and, when it's all said and done, nothing tops the HYS brands. Sure, you can go be an associate or a DA and it won't matter, but if you want to leverage your legal experience outside of the legal profession, don't go to UofC. If you want to be an academic or PI attorney, go to Yale. If you want Wall Street, go to Harvard. If you want tech, IP, or startups, go to Stanford. Trust me on this.

-SLS student with an HLS sibling.

I value your input and I feel like it's a good conversation to have. That said I have to (Law and Economics here I guess) weigh statistical outcomes more than your anecdotal experience. These are the percentages of Class of 2013 graduates (not sure if Class of 2014 data is out yet) working at large (100+) firms or clerkships (Source ABA and Law School Transparency via AboveTheLaw):

Harvard: 55% +17% = 72%
Yale: 31% +35% = 66%
Stanford: 49% + 29% = 78%
UChicago: 62% +10% = 72%

UChicago keeps up well with its peers, especially if you want Big Law, which is where this whole prestige thing gets the most traction. I think it's also worth mentioning that UChicago has the highest bar passage-required rate of any of the four (the result of actually having grades?), and the lowest unemployment rate as well. Median wage is $160,000 (just like it is at any of these schools). Is 200k worth that 6% jump at Stanford plus the cocktail party preftige? I'd say no.

[03282016]

[PariSiamo]

To be fair he is talking about "unicorn"/non-traditional outcomes. If you look at Harvard's employment stats the "JD-preferred" group is much larger, even adjusted for class-size, than UChicago's.

[Sevenkingdoms]

N/A

[03282016]

[Mal Reynolds]

Judging by your inabilities to understand what I'm saying, maybe you should consider foregoing the Ruby, since you probably won't finish above the median there anyway. I made it clear in my original post that you won't have a problem landing big law at Chicago. You won't have that problem at NYU either. So what? The HYS network is not a myth.

I'm happy you're at Stanford.

[Sevenkingdoms]

Judging by your inabilities to understand what I'm saying, maybe you should consider foregoing the Ruby, since you probably won't finish above the median there anyway. I made it clear in my original post that you won't have a problem landing big law at Chicago. You won't have that problem at NYU either. So what? The HYS network is not a myth.

This approach to interacting with others will get you far in life.

Lol. Get ready for law school, my friend. You'll enjoy your colleagues.

[03282016]

[daedalus2309]

Judging by your inabilities to understand what I'm saying, maybe you should consider foregoing the Ruby, since you probably won't finish above the median there anyway. I made it clear in my original post that you won't have a problem landing big law at Chicago. You won't have that problem at NYU either. So what? The HYS network is not a myth.

My main problem is that your only evidence is "I have many friends and family members in the legal profession", which is far from conclusive.

I responded with numbers and you became defensive. Your earlier sentence suggests to me that you come from a wealthier background and can afford to spend more money on marginally improved outcomes, a situation which does not apply to the vast majority of individuals (and certainly not to me).

[Sevenkingdoms]

Judging by your inabilities to understand what I'm saying, maybe you should consider foregoing the Ruby, since you probably won't finish above the median there anyway. I made it clear in my original post that you won't have a problem landing big law at Chicago. You won't have that problem at NYU either. So what? The HYS network is not a myth.

My main problem is that your only evidence is "I have many friends and family members in the legal profession", which is far from conclusive.

I responded with numbers and you became defensive. Your earlier sentence suggests to me that you come from a wealthier background and can afford to spend more money on marginally improved outcomes, a situation which does not apply to the vast majority of individuals (and certainly not to me).

I didn't become defensive. You responded with statistics that were completely irrelevant, given my original statement that you will have no problem landing a job at Chicago.

[Mal Reynolds]

Marginally better chances at unicorn jobs does not outweigh ability for forego $250k in debt. HTH

[PariSiamo]

Judging by your inabilities to understand what I'm saying, maybe you should consider foregoing the Ruby, since you probably won't finish above the median there anyway. I made it clear in my original post that you won't have a problem landing big law at Chicago. You won't have that problem at NYU either. So what? The HYS network is not a myth.

You're not making it any easier to play devil's advocate here. I still agree with what you're saying but I'm not at all debt-averse.

[Sevenkingdoms]

Marginally better chances at unicorn jobs does not outweigh ability for forego $250k in debt. HTH

I agree. If you want to be on a perpetual hamster wheel (law school --> clerk --> biglaw --> partner), then this entire convo is meaningless. However, my position is that the chances are substantial, and not marginal. I also think that there is no uniform solution, and you should go with whatever place will put you in the best position to do what you want to do. I was simply responding to the (IMO, ridiculous) statement that a ruby is better than landing Yale. Harvard has data showing that your ROI, even paying sticker, is much higher at HYS than it is with a ruby. When you go to Chicago, and realize how cutthroat and competitive the legal industry is, maybe my message will get across. Until then, best of luck with the cycle.

[Mal Reynolds]

Marginally better chances at unicorn jobs does not outweigh ability for forego $250k in debt. HTH

I agree. If you want to be on a perpetual hamster wheel (law school --> clerk --> biglaw --> partner), then this entire convo is meaningless. However, my position is that the chances are substantial, and not marginal. I also think that there is no uniform solution, and you should go with whatever place will put you in the best position to do what you want to do. I was simply responding to the (IMO, ridiculous) statement that a ruby is better than landing Yale. Harvard has data showing that your ROI, even paying sticker, is much higher at HYS than it is with a ruby. When you go to Chicago, and realize how cutthroat and competitive the legal industry is, maybe my message will get across. Until then, best of luck with the cycle.

I understand the incentive you have to confirm that your choice was the correct one but telling me Harvard has data showing that choosing sticker at Harvard is better than a full ride at UChicago is laughable even given your immense confirmation biases. Especially since the only way Harvard could make that work is by using the people who take the biglaw route in their calculations. The unicorn jobs don't usually pay all that much so it's pretty dumb to use ROI as some relevant factor in your argument.

[Sevenkingdoms]

Harvard: 55% +17% = 72%
Yale: 31% +35% = 66%
Stanford: 49% + 29% = 78%
UChicago: 62% +10% = 72%

UChicago keeps up well with its peers, especially if you want Big Law, which is where this whole prestige thing gets the most traction. I think it's also worth mentioning that UChicago has the highest bar passage-required rate of any of the four (the result of actually having grades?), and the lowest unemployment rate as well. Median wage is $160,000 (just like it is at any of these schools). Is 200k worth that 6% jump at Stanford plus the cocktail party preftige? I'd say no.

49% of SLS students land biglaw because only 49% of them go for biglaw. There's this thing called "public interest" that a lot of people do instead. That number would jump to close to 100% if everyone wanted it. However, I have several friends at Chicago who did OCI and did not land biglaw jobs (anecdotal, I know). But, once again, I feel as though your assumption that the two schools are on equal footing, because of the statistics, is inherently flawed. Go to HYS, straight P, and still land Skadden. Or don't. Whatever.

[Sevenkingdoms]

I understand the incentive you have to confirm that your choice was the correct one but telling me Harvard has data showing that choosing sticker at Harvard is better than a full ride at UChicago is laughable even given your immense confirmation biases. Especially since the only way Harvard could make that work is by using the people who take the biglaw route in their calculations. The unicorn jobs don't usually pay all that much so it's pretty dumb to use ROI as some relevant factor in your argument.

Actually, I try to convince as many people not to go to law school as possible. And, if they refuse to listen to that advice, I promote HYS as much as possible. I turned down H and Y for S because it was the best fit for me. Everyone should do the same (pick the right school for them). And, if debt is a significant factor, then the ruby makes sense. But to say that a ruby is better than Yale is laughable. And once you meet a single person in the profession, and once you do OCI, you will realize that is an idiotic statement. Especially given that HYS have LRAP programs, and will pay off your loans if you do PI. I don't need some sort of confirmation based on an insecurity. You can either listen or not. I don't really care.

[nickhalden]

49% of SLS students land biglaw because only 49% of them go for biglaw. There's this thing called "public interest" that a lot of people do instead. That number would jump to close to 100% if everyone wanted it. However, I have several friends at Chicago who did OCI and did not land biglaw jobs (anecdotal, I know). But, once again, I feel as though your assumption that the two schools are on equal footing, because of the statistics, is inherently flawed. Go to HYS, straight P, and still land Skadden. Or don't. Whatever.

Nobody is assuming or arguing that Chicago is equal to HYS. They are arguing that Chicago with a Ruby is equal to or greater than sticker at HYS. If you're arguing differently, it isn't enough to show how wonderful the unicorn HYS outcomes are; you need to show that the typical HYS outcome is $250,000 better than the typical Chicago outcome.

[03282016]

[Sevenkingdoms]

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[Mal Reynolds]

I understand the incentive you have to confirm that your choice was the correct one but telling me Harvard has data showing that choosing sticker at Harvard is better than a full ride at UChicago is laughable even given your immense confirmation biases. Especially since the only way Harvard could make that work is by using the people who take the biglaw route in their calculations. The unicorn jobs don't usually pay all that much so it's pretty dumb to use ROI as some relevant factor in your argument.

Actually, I try to convince as many people not to go to law school as possible. And, if they refuse to listen to that advice, I promote HYS as much as possible. I turned down H and Y for S because it was the best fit for me. Everyone should do the same (pick the right school for them). And, if debt is a significant factor, then the ruby makes sense. But to say that a ruby is better than Yale is laughable. And once you meet a single person in the profession, and once you do OCI, you will realize that is an idiotic statement. Especially given that HYS have LRAP programs, and will pay off your loans if you do PI. I don't need some sort of confirmation based on an insecurity. You can either listen or not. I don't really care.

LRAP programs are essentially uniform given PAYE and PSLF so I'm not sure what you're getting at with HYS loan repayment programs. And as for the rest of your evidence that Yale is better than a Ruby, I'm pretty unconvinced. You offered some ROI argument as if that was supposed to do anything for your case. But for ROI for be high, you need to make a lot of money and the only real option for doing that in the legal field in biglaw. In this case, taking a full ride is much better than saddling yourself with HYS sticker debt.

In the case of public interest, academia and fed gov jobs, there is definitely a slightly larger chance of getting that stuff from HYS, but again, a significant portion of HYS kids end up taking biglaw anyway. So the idea here really is that the Ruby offers you a chance at everything that HYS does, and protects you from making a devastating financial decision for a career path that will likely take you to the same place at the end of the day.

And as for your claim that HYS is great for non-law jobs, you are pretty dumb picking law school if you don't intend to work in the legal field, especially since MBA and most other graduate programs are only two years, which means one year less of tuition and one more year of making money.

[Sevenkingdoms]

I understand the incentive you have to confirm that your choice was the correct one but telling me Harvard has data showing that choosing sticker at Harvard is better than a full ride at UChicago is laughable even given your immense confirmation biases. Especially since the only way Harvard could make that work is by using the people who take the biglaw route in their calculations. The unicorn jobs don't usually pay all that much so it's pretty dumb to use ROI as some relevant factor in your argument.

Actually, I try to convince as many people not to go to law school as possible. And, if they refuse to listen to that advice, I promote HYS as much as possible. I turned down H and Y for S because it was the best fit for me. Everyone should do the same (pick the right school for them). And, if debt is a significant factor, then the ruby makes sense. But to say that a ruby is better than Yale is laughable. And once you meet a single person in the profession, and once you do OCI, you will realize that is an idiotic statement. Especially given that HYS have LRAP programs, and will pay off your loans if you do PI. I don't need some sort of confirmation based on an insecurity. You can either listen or not. I don't really care.

LRAP programs are essentially uniform given PAYE and PSLF so I'm not sure what you're getting at with HYS loan repayment programs. And as for the rest of your evidence that Yale is better than a Ruby, I'm pretty unconvinced. You offered some ROI argument as if that was supposed to do anything for your case. But for ROI for be high, you need to make a lot of money and the only real option for doing that in the legal field in biglaw. In this case, taking a full ride is much better than saddling yourself with HYS sticker debt.

In the case of public interest, academia and fed gov jobs, there is definitely a slightly larger chance of getting that stuff from HYS, but again, a significant portion of HYS kids end up taking biglaw anyway. So the idea here really is that the Ruby offers you a chance at everything that HYS does, and protects you from making a devastating financial decision for a career path that will likely take you to the same place at the end of the day.

And as for your claim that HYS is great for non-law jobs, you are pretty dumb picking law school if you don't intend to work in the legal field, especially since MBA and most other graduate programs are only two years, which means one year less of tuition and one more year of making money.

It's actually not that hard to calculate. HYS grads, on average, make more than $250k compared to other law students, adjusted for the time value of money. Look it up. You will see how flawed your assumptions are once you actually understand the legal profession. You're obviously a noob, and it's hard to debate over-confident noobs.

[Mal Reynolds]

Can't you at least post your own study?

[PariSiamo]

Seems logical that HYS grads make more than most other grads. Also seems logical that CCN grads make more than most other grads. I doubt that the average HYS makes that much more than the average UChicago grad, though.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Sevenkingdoms, the Law School Acceptances/Denials/Waitlists forum is not the venue for debating the merits of different schools (see the rules posted at the top of the forum). This thread is for applicants to share info about acceptances etc. You need to stay out of this thread because your HYS boosterism is derailing the purposes of the thread.