W&L c/o 2016 Forum

[sublime]

..

[JayJones78]

So what do you guys think of the new 3L program? Here's an article about how W&L's placement has dropped since instituting the new program. http://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot ... d-lee.html

Another article out this week ranking W&L 135 in terms of placement: http://www.thefacultylounge.org/2013/04 ... .html#more

ETA: third link is apparently blocked here. but look up deceptive clerkship numbers and you should find info about it.

InB4 JayJones saying you need to be top 20% at any school ranked outside of the T14.

me and many others, but yah. That's my personal opinion (which is widely known and criticized by TLS which is fine by me) is that all these really means nothing. Make top 20% in schools ranked 17/18-30 = be okay.
Dont make top 20% in these schools = bad things will happen to you.
If you want better outcomes = retake, ED UVA. the end.

[sublime]

..

[JayJones78]

So what do you guys think of the new 3L program? Here's an article about how W&L's placement has dropped since instituting the new program. http://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot ... d-lee.html

Another article out this week ranking W&L 135 in terms of placement: http://www.thefacultylounge.org/2013/04 ... .html#more

ETA: third link is apparently blocked here. but look up deceptive clerkship numbers and you should find info about it.

InB4 JayJones saying you need to be top 20% at any school ranked outside of the T14.

me and many others, but yah. That's my personal opinion (which is widely known and criticized by TLS which is fine by me) is that all these really means nothing. Make top 20% in schools ranked 17/18-30 = be okay.
Dont make top 20% in these schools = bad things will happen to you.
If you want better outcomes = retake, ED UVA. the end.

I don't really disagree with you. For solid outcomes, barring connections, you should be top 20% at the rank of schools we are talking about. No question. I think were we differ most is how much what happens to the next 30% and below median grads matters, as I doubt that any of us will drop out if after 1L we are say, above median but below top third.

And I was just poking fun. That is why I 'd

all is good!

[lhanvt13]

Connections are where it's at

[espressocream]

Connections are where it's at

Networking super hard helps too.

[lhanvt13]

Connections are where it's at

Networking super hard helps too.

Also, being incredibly sexy

[NewYorkL]

Withdrew application from the waitlist so someone who wants to go has a better shot. Good luck.

[InBetweenDays]

Withdrew application from the waitlist so someone who wants to go has a better shot. Good luck.

Good on yuh'. I'm contemplating doing the same this AM

[espressocream]

Connections are where it's at

Networking super hard helps too.

Also, being incredibly sexy

Should we all just picwhore and see who will be successful in law school and who won't? Save people from 6 figure debt and all.

[lhanvt13]

Connections are where it's at

Networking super hard helps too.

Also, being incredibly sexy

Should we all just picwhore and see who will be successful in law school and who won't? Save people from 6 figure debt and all.

I like this idea. I suggested sometime last year (?) early this year (?) that we should have self tar saturdays lol

[lhanvt13]

So I'm thinking of making a future 1L only facebook group with no administrators or current students in it. Thoughts? we can discuss things freely and get to know each other before the semester starts

[somewhatwayward]

we talked about this many times. with schools in that rank (16/17-30) all the employment data is just not as relevant IMO. you need to come in knowing you gotta make it to the top 20-30% of your class (I say 30% for school 16-20 and 20% for schools 21-30) or bad things will happen. the kids who are in those rank will be okay (combined with how they fare in OCI, their nature, ability to network and sell themselves etc. but that goes for any LS student, top or bottom). If you have that mentality in mind, you realize that the change in employment just doesnt matter as much. be in that rank, all things equal you'll be in a position to finish school with a job. don't be in that rank, assume the worst.

This is not a complete argument as it is written here....sure, most of the top 20% at W&L probably have jobs, but how does that explain that the % employed should not matter unless you are assuming that you will be in the top 20%? Or are you saying that you understand that you are paying 200K for a 20% chance at the outcome you want? Wrt the latter, you need to remember that 1) unlike undergrad, law schools cluster together students that are very similar in terms of work ethic and intelligence, so it is hard to make an ex ante argument that you can best 80% of them....pretty much the only logical ex ante argument you can make is that you have a 20% chance of beating 80% of the class; and 2) law school exams are a different beast than anything you have dealt with before, which again introduces uncertainty into predicting that you will be in the top 20%....maybe you will be great at law school exams or maybe you will be terrible...hard to know, especially when you consider that 'great' and 'terrible' are relative to the rest of the class.

Since it is illogical at this juncture to argue that you have a better than 20% chance at top 20%, are you saying that you accept that you are paying 200K for a 20% shot at the outcome you want? Don't get me wrong - I hope you will be reporting in half a year that you are in the top 20% but right now that is an unrealistic assumption for anyone to make.

I am meddling here but I am also wondering why you prefer W&L over Tulane which has identical big firm and clerkship numbers to W&L but places 62% into full-time long-term legal jobs compared to 49% for W&L. Tulane also places more grads into NYC than W&L and a similar amount into TX. For whatever reason Tulane is a little less regional than most schools in its rank. I believe you have a 5K scholarship to W&L that reduces the cost a little, but when you are contemplating taking out 200K+, I think the 20% greater chance at getting a job out of Tulane is worth an extra 20K (incl. interest) bc getting your foot in the door after law school is crucial if you are ever going to have a legal career. Even if you have a not-so-great legal job, having something on your resume while you keep looking is 10000000x better than having long gaps on your resume. You can always spin a shitty legal job, but it is hard to spin nothing. Also, despite its rank, IRL I do not think people consider W&L to be above Tulane from a prestige perspective. That is also shown by their identical placement into prestigious employment, around 15%. FTR I am not advocating Tulane at sticker....just in the context of this decision.

Anyway I am not trying to be mean....I have been following your cycle since the fall and I understand your dilemma of being older and having taken the LSAT several times. But I want you to go in with your eyes wide open.

[strops387]

I understand that the current employment statistics for a school are the most relevant when deciding which law school to attend, but why is no one looking at W&L's employment data in a broader context? To my knowledge, W&L students have placed very well historically with a much higher percentage of students receiving offers at large law firms or as federal clerks. And I'm not only talking about before 2008. Most schools have a down year for employment, and the class of 2012 was definitely an outlier for W&L. In addition, the class of 2012 didn't have a ridiculously high number of students working in school-funded positions like many peer schools. These jobs typically provide grads with a small stipend to essentially do volunteer work at a firm and are simply a mechanism to boost employment stats. W&L's numbers were definitely pathetic this year, but I don't think that many professionals in the legal community would consider Tulane in the same ballpark as W&L in terms of prestige, quality of education, stature of faculty, etc.

[LetsGoRangers]

I understand that the current employment statistics for a school are the most relevant when deciding which law school to attend, but why is no one looking at W&L's employment data in a broader context? To my knowledge, W&L students have placed very well historically with a much higher percentage of students receiving offers at large law firms or as federal clerks. And I'm not only talking about before 2008. Most schools have a down year for employment, and the class of 2012 was definitely an outlier for W&L. In addition, the class of 2012 didn't have a ridiculously high number of students working in school-funded positions like many peer schools. These jobs typically provide grads with a small stipend to essentially do volunteer work at a firm and are simply a mechanism to boost employment stats. W&L's numbers were definitely pathetic this year, but I don't think that many professionals in the legal community would consider Tulane in the same ballpark as W&L in terms of prestige, quality of education, stature of faculty, etc.

"You're only as good as your last success".

I wouldn't consider W&L and Tulane peer schools but who cares about prestige, faculty, etc when it's placing less than half of its grads in legal jobs.

[InBetweenDays]

I understand that the current employment statistics for a school are the most relevant when deciding which law school to attend, but why is no one looking at W&L's employment data in a broader context? To my knowledge, W&L students have placed very well historically with a much higher percentage of students receiving offers at large law firms or as federal clerks. And I'm not only talking about before 2008. Most schools have a down year for employment, and the class of 2012 was definitely an outlier for W&L. In addition, the class of 2012 didn't have a ridiculously high number of students working in school-funded positions like many peer schools. These jobs typically provide grads with a small stipend to essentially do volunteer work at a firm and are simply a mechanism to boost employment stats. W&L's numbers were definitely pathetic this year, but I don't think that many professionals in the legal community would consider Tulane in the same ballpark as W&L in terms of prestige, quality of education, stature of faculty, etc.

"You're only as good as your last success".

I wouldn't consider W&L and Tulane peer schools but who cares about prestige, faculty, etc when it's placing less than half of its grads in legal jobs.

Agreed^. I'm surprised schools like William and Mary didn't take more of a rankings hit after USNWR changed their methodology to break out university funded jobs from JD required jobs category. I think above in this W&L thread there is a list of rankings based on % of long-term, JD required, non-university funded positions. W&L, W&M, GW, and others are shown to have extremely bleak placement prospects. Of course, those rankings don't take into account the national portability of x school's JD, or the quality of job (beyond the qualifications above), but still... pretty scary considering the cost.


Edit: And here it is http://www.thefacultylounge.org/2013/04 ... .html#more

[espressocream]

Should we all just picwhore and see who will be successful in law school and who won't? Save people from 6 figure debt and all.

I like this idea. I suggested sometime last year (?) early this year (?) that we should have self tar saturdays lol

I mean it'd save everyone's breath and we could talk about more important things like quality of bars and jogging routes.

[lhanvt13]

Should we all just picwhore and see who will be successful in law school and who won't? Save people from 6 figure debt and all.

I like this idea. I suggested sometime last year (?) early this year (?) that we should have self tar saturdays lol

I mean it'd save everyone's breath and we could talk about more important things like quality of bars and jogging routes.

Check PM ma'am sir

[nbahri05]

Any waitlist movement?

[lhanvt13]

Should we all just picwhore and see who will be successful in law school and who won't? Save people from 6 figure debt and all.

I like this idea. I suggested sometime last year (?) early this year (?) that we should have self tar saturdays lol

I mean it'd save everyone's breath and we could talk about more important things like quality of bars and jogging routes.

Here's my self tar. You can call me Tony

nvm tried changing the tar and it's too much damn work . I'm keeping my tar dammit

[bean412]

"Any waitlist movement?"

I have been wondering the same thing given that in the email that was sent last Tuesday, it said we would hear something within the next week or two.

[nbahri05]

"Any waitlist movement?"

I have been wondering the same thing given that in the email that was sent last Tuesday, it said we would hear something within the next week or two.

Precisely why I am freaking out a bit. But people usually post if they hear something, and so far I haven't seen anything. I was expecting to hear by lasy Friday but I guess 2 weeks really means 2 weeks. Hopefully somebody posts soon so we know that there has been some movement.

[LizardRock]

Withdrew my spot and $90,000....hope it goes to one of you.
Best of luck everyone!

[bean412]

"Any waitlist movement?"

I have been wondering the same thing given that in the email that was sent last Tuesday, it said we would hear something within the next week or two.

Precisely why I am freaking out a bit. But people usually post if they hear something, and so far I haven't seen anything. I was expecting to hear by lasy Friday but I guess 2 weeks really means 2 weeks. Hopefully somebody posts soon so we know that there has been some movement.

Anyone heard anything? Today was 2 weeks from the email....

[nbahri05]

"Any waitlist movement?"

I have been wondering the same thing given that in the email that was sent last Tuesday, it said we would hear something within the next week or two.

Precisely why I am freaking out a bit. But people usually post if they hear something, and so far I haven't seen anything. I was expecting to hear by lasy Friday but I guess 2 weeks really means 2 weeks. Hopefully somebody posts soon so we know that there has been some movement.

Anyone heard anything? Today was 2 weeks from the email....

No. This is absolutely ridiculous. Unless others have heard but to be honest nobody has posted so I doubt it. They should be more considerate and say in a month not "1-2" weeks.