IOWA 2012 Forum

[Ernert]

From my experience...if you have a strong connection to Nebraska, attend the best school you can get into. However, attending an elite Midwest school would convince the top Omaha firms that you are serious about living in Nebraska. Iowa is better than Nebraska or Creighton in regard to Omaha placement. However, if you have a connection, why not go to WUSTL? It is more respected than Iowa, and you will stand out to potential employers as they are swimming through the endless supply of Nebraska, Creighton, and Iowa resumes.

Fair point; I'm blanketing most of the T14 + higher ranked regionals like WUSTL, but I'm mostly interested in Iowa for proximity to family in the contingency that anything happens that would make that a higher priority than school prestige (would rather not go into that here).

But thanks for the advice on placement + age range!

[chrisbru]

From my experience...if you have a strong connection to Nebraska, attend the best school you can get into. However, attending an elite Midwest school would convince the top Omaha firms that you are serious about living in Nebraska. Iowa is better than Nebraska or Creighton in regard to Omaha placement. However, if you have a connection, why not go to WUSTL? It is more respected than Iowa, and you will stand out to potential employers as they are swimming through the endless supply of Nebraska, Creighton, and Iowa resumes.

I'd be very weary to take on substantially more debt to go to WUSTL over Iowa if you just want to get back to NE though. If your debt load will be similar (maybe, within $20k of each other?) then go to WUSTL. Depending on your stats though, you may get more money at one than the other... For instance, WUSTL prefers 168+ LSAT scores and will give money to anyone that has that. Iowa prefers people that pull up both medians.

Do you have your stats for us?

[typ3]

If you for sure want to stay in Nebraska go to Nebraska.

You won't get hiring preferences at big firms in Omaha for simply going to a better ranked school. If you went T-14 then yes. However, the problem you run is all your summer employment opportunities will be at Creighton / UNL OCI's. Since Omaha firms can more than fill their SA positions with local grads they rarely do out of state search for applicants-- when they do it's normally limited to resume collections.

95% of the lawyers in Nebraska are Creighton or Nebraska graduates-- these lawyers go to their alma matter to hire new associates. The other large problem you run into is networking. Nebraska is a small legal market, you're shooting yourself in the foot twice by not gaining a professional network while you're in school.

In sum go to UNL over Creighton. UNL is under ranked given its faculty and spending. They've gained a lot of grants recently from the government and strat-com which has lead to some great hires like Marvin Ammori etc.

[chrisbru]

If you for sure want to stay in Nebraska go to Nebraska.

You won't get hiring preferences at big firms in Omaha for simply going to a better ranked school. If you went T-14 then yes. However, the problem you run is all your summer employment opportunities will be at Creighton / UNL OCI's. Since Omaha firms can more than fill their SA positions with local grads they rarely do out of state search for applicants-- when they do it's normally limited to resume collections.

95% of the lawyers in Nebraska are Creighton or Nebraska graduates-- these lawyers go to their alma matter to hire new associates. The other large problem you run into is networking. Nebraska is a small legal market, you're shooting yourself in the foot twice by not gaining a professional network while you're in school.

In sum go to UNL over Creighton. UNL is under ranked given its faculty and spending. They've gained a lot of grants recently from the government and strat-com which has lead to some great hires like Marvin Ammori etc.

PS - Typ3 went to UNL. So, listen to him.

[typ3]

From my experience...if you have a strong connection to Nebraska, attend the best school you can get into. However, attending an elite Midwest school would convince the top Omaha firms that you are serious about living in Nebraska. Iowa is better than Nebraska or Creighton in regard to Omaha placement. However, if you have a connection, why not go to WUSTL? It is more respected than Iowa, and you will stand out to potential employers as they are swimming through the endless supply of Nebraska, Creighton, and Iowa resumes.

I haven't talked to an Omaha or Lincoln lawyer who would agree with this that simply attending a better school makes you stand out unless it is an elite school. I've heard the same in other legal markets as well. Firms show a lot of allegiance to their alma matters and it takes a lot of effort to hire someone out of state when you can drive 20 minutes to the Creighton's campus and interview not only one but 10 applicants. Local grads tend to be more profitable on the onset because they can bring in referral work from fellow classmates / connections they made while in school. If you're talking about the satellite offices in Lincoln / Omaha for a couple of the big NY firms they only hire T-6 or local grads that are top 1-5% with stellar writing abilities. Both unlikely for the OP.

[typ3]

If you for sure want to stay in Nebraska go to Nebraska.

You won't get hiring preferences at big firms in Omaha for simply going to a better ranked school. If you went T-14 then yes. However, the problem you run is all your summer employment opportunities will be at Creighton / UNL OCI's. Since Omaha firms can more than fill their SA positions with local grads they rarely do out of state search for applicants-- when they do it's normally limited to resume collections.

95% of the lawyers in Nebraska are Creighton or Nebraska graduates-- these lawyers go to their alma matter to hire new associates. The other large problem you run into is networking. Nebraska is a small legal market, you're shooting yourself in the foot twice by not gaining a professional network while you're in school.

In sum go to UNL over Creighton. UNL is under ranked given its faculty and spending. They've gained a lot of grants recently from the government and strat-com which has lead to some great hires like Marvin Ammori etc.

PS - Typ3 went to UNL. So, listen to him.

And Chris is right on his point earlier. Minimize your DEBT. Especially if you're going to Omaha after graduation. You will not make 6 figures starting out even at a big firm there. You're looking at high high 60k to mid 80k starting.

This is text book big fish and small pond / small fish and big pond.

[MNbound]

I'm a Minnesota resident applying to Iowa but only because I got a fee waiver. Also, with a 165 and a 3.6, I don't know if I have much of a chance of getting any scholarships.

[chrisbru]

I'm a Minnesota resident applying to Iowa but only because I got a fee waiver. Also, with a 165 and a 3.6, I don't know if I have much of a chance of getting any scholarships.

Probably not at MN, but likely at Iowa.

[typ3]

I'm a Minnesota resident applying to Iowa but only because I got a fee waiver. Also, with a 165 and a 3.6, I don't know if I have much of a chance of getting any scholarships.

If you were an Iowa resident you would get a likely full. Given last year's breakdown you're likely looking at 18k a year or 54k. It would still be cheaper for you to attend UofM at instate tuition.

[KamaalTheAbstract]

What kind of employment are people that are going to Iowa looking for? Just curious.

[chrisbru]

I'm a Minnesota resident applying to Iowa but only because I got a fee waiver. Also, with a 165 and a 3.6, I don't know if I have much of a chance of getting any scholarships.

If you were an Iowa resident you would get a likely full. Given last year's breakdown you're likely looking at 18k a year or 54k. It would still be cheaper for you to attend UofM at instate tuition.

Unfortunately, with those numbers, he's looking at a wait list from UofM most likely - Last year every 165, no matter what GPA, got wait listed except for a URM:
http://minnesota.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/1011/

[minnbills]

I'm a Minnesota resident applying to Iowa but only because I got a fee waiver. Also, with a 165 and a 3.6, I don't know if I have much of a chance of getting any scholarships.

If you were an Iowa resident you would get a likely full. Given last year's breakdown you're likely looking at 18k a year or 54k. It would still be cheaper for you to attend UofM at instate tuition.

Unfortunately, with those numbers, he's looking at a wait list from UofM most likely - Last year every 165, no matter what GPA, got wait listed except for a URM:
http://minnesota.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/1011/

Supposedly MN residents get a significant boost. Also, UMN raised instate tuition to 34k this year. It goes down 2gs or so every year for in-state people but it's still a significant hike.

MNBound, I would certainly send apps to the other state schools: Iowa and Wisconsin.

[typ3]

34? Ouch. Wasn't it 26 or so last year?

[typ3]

I'm willing to provide input on personal statements if people want them. PM me. I won't do line edits though.

[mapnoren]

Saving money is a valid consideration when considering whether to attend Iowa or WUSTL. If you can obtain in-State tuition at Iowa + $, then going to Iowa is the prudent decision. Omaha firms LOVE to hire Summer Associates with a STRONG connection to NE whom also have an elite school listed on their resumes. The connection mitigates flight risk concerns, and the elite school indicates hard work/intelligence. There are only a handful of Omaha firms that pay more that 80K, the great majority pay 60K or less. I was lucky enough to get an offer from one of the 80K plus firms, and the managing partner told me that the firm received a plethora of Nebraska/Creighton resumes. He said that mine stood out bc of (1) my law school and (2) my connections with NE. By the way, I have a lot of friends who went to UNL and none of them received an offer from the 80K+ firms. (Note: the firm I was a SA for does not participate in OCI anymore, and it is a NLJ250 Firm)

[typ3]

Saving money is a valid consideration when considering whether to attend Iowa or WUSTL. If you can obtain in-State tuition at Iowa + $, then going to Iowa is the prudent decision. Omaha firms LOVE to hire Summer Associates with a STRONG connection to NE whom also have an elite school listed on their resumes. The connection mitigates flight risk concerns, and the elite school indicates hard work/intelligence. There are only a handful of Omaha firms that pay more that 80K, the great majority pay 60K or less. I was lucky enough to get an offer from one of the 80K plus firms, and the managing partner told me that the firm received a plethora of Nebraska/Creighton resumes. He said that mine stood out bc of (1) my law school and (2) my connections with NE. By the way, I have a lot of friends who went to UNL and none of them received an offer from the 80K+ firms. (Note: the firm I was a SA for does not participate in OCI anymore, and it is a NLJ250 Firm)

Top 5-10% at Creighton / UNL normally get 80k offers assuming we're talking about the same firms, Koley / Kutak Rock / McGarth North / Baird Holm/ Fraser Stryker/ Cline / etc. Problem is there really isn't big law in Omaha. There are a glut of 3-10 lawyer firms and sole practitioners in the burbs (Elkhorn, Council Bluffs, Papillion, Bellevue). People go downtown for corporate work but stay in the burbs for run of the mill consumer work (bankruptcy, personal injury, wills, estates, trusts, etc.)

[typ3]

Although it is old information and not indicative of the current economy. The 10 largest firms in Omaha hired 78 new associates and paralegals in 2006 one firm did not disclose. I'm guessing the number of new attorneys of these was actually somewhere around 30-40.

UNL and Creighton each have classes around 140. This means that the top 10% at both schools could all place at the big firms-- BigLaw is rather subjective because the 10th largest firm in Omaha only has 23 attorneys. However, I'm guessing the placement is about 20-25 associates per year with the other 5-20 associates coming from regional feeders like 1.) USD, 2.) Kansas, and 3.) Iowa ranked in order of feeding. A few obviously will come from the T-14.

Personally if I were going back to Omaha and looking for a top 5 firm I would shoot for koley jessen. They're the youngest of the big firms in Omaha and it seems to be a lot less politics than Kutak Rock and McGarth and has a lot more young blood in general since it's only been around 22 years.

[typ3]

Yea the economy has had some effect. In 2006 McGrath had 78 attorneys and hired 4 new associates. In 2010 McGrath had 61 attorneys. They had no new hires in 2009 but hired four law graduates in 2010.

[Opie]

Yea the economy has had some effect. In 2006 McGrath had 78 attorneys and hired 4 new associates. In 2010 McGrath had 61 attorneys. They had no new hires in 2009 but hired four law graduates in 2010.

Ouch! Where are you finding these numbers? I'd love to know the figures for Des Moines firms.

[typ3]

Yea the economy has had some effect. In 2006 McGrath had 78 attorneys and hired 4 new associates. In 2010 McGrath had 61 attorneys. They had no new hires in 2009 but hired four law graduates in 2010.

Ouch! Where are you finding these numbers? I'd love to know the figures for Des Moines firms.

It was from a local Lincoln / Omaha business journal. The 2010 figure was via the Omaha world herald. I don't have numbers for des moines, but I imagine you could find them via google. Des Moines legal market is smaller than Omaha even. I imagine this is why so many Iowa grads leave the state.

[Opie]

Yea the economy has had some effect. In 2006 McGrath had 78 attorneys and hired 4 new associates. In 2010 McGrath had 61 attorneys. They had no new hires in 2009 but hired four law graduates in 2010.

Ouch! Where are you finding these numbers? I'd love to know the figures for Des Moines firms.

It was from a local Lincoln / Omaha business journal. The 2010 figure was via the Omaha world herald. I don't have numbers for des moines, but I imagine you could find them via google. Des Moines legal market is smaller than Omaha even. I imagine this is why so many Iowa grads leave the state.

I've done a little hunting, but I haven't been able to find anything good. I know that there is insurance defense and subro to be done here with all of the insurance companies (one of which I currently work for), but I really would like to do employment. That may have to wait a little while.

[mapnoren]

While there is no single definition of "Biglaw," two general elements are (1) multiple offices/national scope and (2) cumulative amount of 100+ attorneys (total w/ all branches included). The only Omaha firms that meet these requirements are Husch Blackwell, Kutak Rock, and Stinson Morrison Hecker. Kutak Rock is the only firm that has more than 100 attorneys in the Omaha branch itself. The other firms you mentioned do mainly recruit from UNL/Creighton. However, the firm I worked for over the summer, loved to hire Iowa and Minnesota law students or students from T25 schools with a substantial connection to Omaha (Duke, Stanford, USC, Emory, Vandy, WUSTL, BU, GULC, Michigan, Northwestern are some examples). These three firms (HB/KR/SMH) like to hire law students from elite schools in various regions, whom also have a Nebraska connection. This attracts major clients on the coasts, who would probably not be interested in giving work to McGrath North for example. Thus, if you want to live in Omaha and work for Mcgrath North, Baird Holm, koley jessen, etc., attending UNL/Creighton is fine. However, the firm you work for will not have a national scope. If you want to work for HB/KR/SMH, attending Iowa, Minnesota, WUSTL, Northwestern, or Michigan would substantially increase your chances of getting hired. This is not to say that attending UNL/Creighton will prevent you from getting hired, but why make it more difficult on yourself?

[typ3]

While there is no single definition of "Biglaw," two general elements are (1) multiple offices/national scope and (2) cumulative amount of 100+ attorneys (total w/ all branches included). The only Omaha firms that meet these requirements are Husch Blackwell, Kutak Rock, and Stinson Morrison Hecker. Kutak Rock is the only firm that has more than 100 attorneys in the Omaha branch itself. The other firms you mentioned do mainly recruit from UNL/Creighton. However, the firm I worked for over the summer, loved to hire Iowa and Minnesota law students or students from T25 schools with a substantial connection to Omaha (Duke, Stanford, USC, Emory, Vandy, WUSTL, BU, GULC, Michigan, Northwestern are some examples). These three firms (HB/KR/SMH) like to hire law students from elite schools in various regions, whom also have a Nebraska connection. This attracts major clients on the coasts, who would probably not be interested in giving work to McGrath North for example. Thus, if you want to live in Omaha and work for Mcgrath North, Baird Holm, Koley Jessen, etc., attending UNL/Creighton is fine. However, the firm you work for will not have a national scope. If you want to work for HB/KR/SMH, attending Iowa, Minnesota, WUSTL, Northwestern, or Michigan would substantially increase your chances of getting hired. This is not to say that attending UNL/Creighton will prevent you from getting hired, but why make it more difficult on yourself?

Fair enough. However, making a decision to get hired by the one "BigLaw" firm is very imprudent-- because even if all things work out the OP still has a slim chance of being offered a position. Assuming the OP attends OOS his chances of getting hired at Kutak are still slim but he hurts his chances at the other mid size firms in Omaha / Lincoln.

[typ3]

I'm a Minnesota resident applying to Iowa but only because I got a fee waiver. Also, with a 165 and a 3.6, I don't know if I have much of a chance of getting any scholarships.

If you were an Iowa resident you would get a likely full. Given last year's breakdown you're likely looking at 18k a year or 54k. It would still be cheaper for you to attend UofM at instate tuition.

Unfortunately, with those numbers, he's looking at a wait list from UofM most likely - Last year every 165, no matter what GPA, got wait listed except for a URM:
http://minnesota.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats/1011/

Supposedly MN residents get a significant boost. Also, UMN raised instate tuition to 34k this year. It goes down 2gs or so every year for in-state people but it's still a significant hike.

MNBound, I would certainly send apps to the other state schools: Iowa and Wisconsin.

Yea go Iowa and Wisconsin if you want to practice in Minneapolis. What was posted in the Minnesota thread by a few practicing attornies and recent graduates was that BigLaw in Minneapolis views Iowa and Wisconsin as peer schools but both are obviously secondary to UofM. Both Wisky and Iowa have a bump over Hamline / UST / W&M students... all 3 schools that a prospective lawyer should not attend IMO.

[Trojan228]

Now that the LSAT is done and I'm awaiting results, when exactly should I begin/ complete the application for Iowa? Should I begin now, after my LoR's are received, or after my LSAT score is posted? Thanks for the advice in advance

EDIT: Ok so it looks like the "Applications for the 2012 entering class will be accepted beginning September 1, 2011." I'll leave this here for anyone who may be wondering the same thing