snob appeal of your undergraduate institution Forum

[bloodonthetracks]

Biggest problem here is you guys are actually putting stock in what adcomms tell you. Y'all realize that PR is a big part of their job, right?

and you are putting all of your stock in LSN, which shows us a plot of unaccredited data points posted by a tiny, tiny fraction of a law school's applicant pool. i'm not saying LSN is worthless by any means, but don't act like you have god on your side.

I'd rather believe an anonymous sample than people who have a clear interest in getting me to apply to their school (and making everyone think their admissions process is holistic and fair).

either way, it's all speculation. even an accurate graph of every applicant (which is a far cry from what LSN is) wouldn't tell us that much about how each school's adcomm valued UG. this thread is futile and a waste of time (i.e. perfect of TLSers, including myself).

[ariadne86]

To make a long answer short, experience this cycle has absolutely proven to me that my UG institution has mattered, especially since I have a GPA on the lower end (was a varsity athlete).

Crombot makes a good point above. As I've also said elsewhere, (sorry for beating a dead horse but people don't seem to be getting it) data from the Princeton 07-08 admissions cycle show that the average Harvard admit from Princeton had a 3.79 and a 172. Both of these numbers hover around the 25% for Harvard. There's clearly a boost. Whether or not this is deserved or if there's a boost for non HYP elite schools are other matters.

[RVP11]

To make a long answer short, experience this cycle has absolutely proven to me that my UG institution has mattered, especially since I have a GPA on the lower end (was a varsity athlete).

Crombot makes a good point above. As I've also said elsewhere, (sorry for beating a dead horse but people don't seem to be getting it) data from the Princeton 07-08 admissions cycle show that the average Harvard admit from Princeton had a 3.79 and a 172. Both of these numbers hover around the 25% for Harvard. There's clearly a boost. Whether or not this is deserved or if there's a boost for non HYP elite schools are other matters.

I wonder if you understand how averages and medians work.

[Grond]

I don't have time to track this down, but a few years ago someone did a public records request and got Boalt's chart for modifiying your GPA based on what UG you attended. It's out there on the internet somewhere. (And if it's on the internet, it must be true, right?)
As for as anecdotal evidence, I [strike]know[/strike] have heard of at least one school in Texas that does the same thing.

[Rawlsian]

I'll say this because there is no Princeton Law School. I have several friends that went to Princeton for undergrad. I did not. Here's what they told me about their undergraduate experience: Sure, there were a select few truly brilliant, bright kids. Most were not of this kind. Most came from somewhat privileged to extremely privileged backgrounds and once away from home did a MOUNTAIN of drugs throughout their 4, sometimes 5 years. They got through it because, from what I was told, it wasn't that intensive from an academic point of view and there were several more fluffy majors to choose from. It's not all vigorous scholarship, class and decorum in those IVY leagues, you know.

Here's what I think about a poor kid who went to a state or no-name college and pulled a 3.7-4.0.... they're hungry. Add a high LSAT to that and you tell me if the "snob appeal" of your undergraduate institution would still matter.

It is hard for me to understand why people so clearly unable to reason well want to go to law school.

You think an Ivy League education is fluff because your princeton friends told you so? I would imagine they were telling you that so that you would not feel inferior. So what you should have learned from this is that you have nice friends not that ivy leauge schools are easy, which is clearly untrue.

A GPA from an ivy league school is going to have a greater weight than a similar gpa from an easier school. Every T-14 admission officer will tell you that when they see a 3.5 from Ohio State and a 3.5 from Harvard, they believe in the very least (ignoring any assumptions of intelligence) that the Harvard student worked harder.

No need to call me out on being an ivy leauge student. I admit that, but that does not prevent my point from being unbiased.

I'm curious what the median GPA is at each of these schools. Anybody have access on their law school report?

edit: Hadn't yet arrived at posted numbers.

[09042014]

Georgia is basically the an equivalent to an ivy, but for engineering. Though its probably the Cornell of the top engineering schools

I don't buy that. Cornell is the Cornell of the top engineering schools (Its still top 10...)

Cornell is more the Penn of engineering schools. Supposedly good, but nobody knows why.

[Rawlsian]

Sure, they make retarded decisions, but they are definitely book smart.

Yeah, but see...that makes them bigger dumbasses than the kids who aren't book smart but make good decisions.

Maybe you mean "douchebag" rather than "dumbass"?

No, I mean dumbass.

Having the whole world open to you + living extremely unhealthily + possibly putting your life at risk + possibly devastating your loved ones = biggest dumbasses ever.

Maybe so, but they are BOOK smart. Yes, they are douchebags and they make horrible decisions, but to call them "dumbasses" is too myopic.

Perhaps distinctions should be made between intelligence(fluid and crystallized), knowledge, and wisdom?

[09042014]

I'll say this because there is no Princeton Law School. I have several friends that went to Princeton for undergrad. I did not. Here's what they told me about their undergraduate experience: Sure, there were a select few truly brilliant, bright kids. Most were not of this kind. Most came from somewhat privileged to extremely privileged backgrounds and once away from home did a MOUNTAIN of drugs throughout their 4, sometimes 5 years. They got through it because, from what I was told, it wasn't that intensive from an academic point of view and there were several more fluffy majors to choose from. It's not all vigorous scholarship, class and decorum in those IVY leagues, you know.

Here's what I think about a poor kid who went to a state or no-name college and pulled a 3.7-4.0.... they're hungry. Add a high LSAT to that and you tell me if the "snob appeal" of your undergraduate institution would still matter.

It is hard for me to understand why people so clearly unable to reason well want to go to law school.

You think an Ivy League education is fluff because your princeton friends told you so? I would imagine they were telling you that so that you would not feel inferior. So what you should have learned from this is that you have nice friends not that ivy leauge schools are easy, which is clearly untrue.

A GPA from an ivy league school is going to have a greater weight than a similar gpa from an easier school. Every T-14 admission officer will tell you that when they see a 3.5 from Ohio State and a 3.5 from Harvard, they believe in the very least (ignoring any assumptions of intelligence) that the Harvard student worked harder.

No need to call me out on being an ivy leauge student. I admit that, but that does not prevent my point from being unbiased.

I'm curious what the median GPA is at each of these schools. Anybody have access on their law school report?

The average grade awarded at Harvard is 3.45, the average grade awarded at OSU is 3.04.

That is a .4 boost built in.

[ariadne86]

I wonder if you understand how averages and medians work.

Thanks, but I do. This is how I did well on the lsat. The average admit to Harvard has around a 3.8+ and 173-174. So the fact that every single admit from Princeton together only averages less than that suggests that there is a boost. What the data suggest is that a 3.79 and 172 from Princeton will get you into HLS. But in general a 3.79 and 172 only gives you a 40% chance to HLS on LSP. The only flaw with this is that the sample size is kind of small (34 admits that year).

[Rawlsian]

I'll say this because there is no Princeton Law School. I have several friends that went to Princeton for undergrad. I did not. Here's what they told me about their undergraduate experience: Sure, there were a select few truly brilliant, bright kids. Most were not of this kind. Most came from somewhat privileged to extremely privileged backgrounds and once away from home did a MOUNTAIN of drugs throughout their 4, sometimes 5 years. They got through it because, from what I was told, it wasn't that intensive from an academic point of view and there were several more fluffy majors to choose from. It's not all vigorous scholarship, class and decorum in those IVY leagues, you know.

Here's what I think about a poor kid who went to a state or no-name college and pulled a 3.7-4.0.... they're hungry. Add a high LSAT to that and you tell me if the "snob appeal" of your undergraduate institution would still matter.

It is hard for me to understand why people so clearly unable to reason well want to go to law school.

You think an Ivy League education is fluff because your princeton friends told you so? I would imagine they were telling you that so that you would not feel inferior. So what you should have learned from this is that you have nice friends not that ivy leauge schools are easy, which is clearly untrue.

A GPA from an ivy league school is going to have a greater weight than a similar gpa from an easier school. Every T-14 admission officer will tell you that when they see a 3.5 from Ohio State and a 3.5 from Harvard, they believe in the very least (ignoring any assumptions of intelligence) that the Harvard student worked harder.

No need to call me out on being an ivy leauge student. I admit that, but that does not prevent my point from being unbiased.

With the amount of grade inflation going on in the ivy league, I'm not so sure all the ivies are harder than the top public schools. The mean GPA at Harvard is 3.45, Cornell is 3.36, Columbia is 3.42. lllinois is 3.19, Wisconsin is 3.2, Georgia Tech is 3.07.

Private schools on average, are .3 higher than public schools.

There is already a boost built in. A significant one.

I'm not sure about what happens in the northeast, but in my high school in the richer area of the Chicago suburbs, almost no one even applied to Ivy league schools. Most of the top of the class went to a flagship state school. The one girl, in my year, who went to Cornell, was lower ranked than me, and was in none of the AP classes.

While I don't doubt the average ivy league student is better than the top public schools, it's not a night at day difference.

And I'll put the graduating class at UIUC electrical engineering against any class in the country. Ok well MIT is probably better.

you're assuming a cause that is not neccesarily true.
For instance, the fact that some particularly low ranked school has a lower average gpa than say Princeton does no mean that princeton is easier. It may however meant that Princeton is stacked with students that are unable to handle getting low grades (since they spent theyre whole lives working hard to get into princeton) and therefore all study harder than the average kid at low-ranked-school-x who has spent his whole life largely ignoring his homework (*i am not generalizing about all students at low ranked schools)

I do want to clarify though that a student who does exceptionally well at a low ranked school most likely worked just as hard as a student who did very well at a very high ranked school. Whether that student is as qualified to succeed in law school is a whole other matter. I think in most cases they would be.

I just wanted to point out that your inference from decreasing average gpas as ranking of school decreased was flawed.

Not flawed, just a counter point to consider when weighing similiar gpa's from different schools.

[jmkelly]

.

[jerjon2]

Georgia is basically the an equivalent to an ivy, but for engineering. Though its probably the Cornell of the top engineering schools

I don't buy that. Cornell is the Cornell of the top engineering schools (Its still top 10...)

Cornell is more the Penn of engineering schools. Supposedly good, but nobody knows why.

You know what, I'm gonna agree with that because I don't know why. I know 5 people from Georgia that chose Cornell over GT (which is basically free if you're in state and keep a 3.0). Also I know quite a few that did the same for UMich, I don't understand that either.

[UFMatt]

That is a .4 boost built in.

I agree.

Have you seen the undergrad tuition at the likes of Penn, Harvard, etc. nowadays? 4 years will cost you $200k+ in tuition alone. Unbelievable. They're not going to fail anyone paying that much. The unfortunate side effect of Ivy grade inflation is that some students believe that they're wonderful. Nevermind that 90% of grades awarded at Harvard are As and Bs.

Spend some time at a state school and you'll see how brutal grading can be. My organic chemistry professor told the class on the first day "I don't mind failing you. You can go cry to the administration all you want that you pay my salary. You _don't_ pay my salary. The state of Florida does. I can fail everyone in the room!"

I took the money and went to an out-of-state, state school rather than paying through the nose for a bachelors. I admit that I assumed it would be easier than a higher ranked school. Not so. The students worked like hell.

[09042014]

The average grade awarded at Harvard is 3.45, the average grade awarded at OSU is 3.04.

That is a .4 boost built in.

Absolutely, since the student bodies are basically interchangeable and grades are awarded purely on merit rather than essentially arbitrary curves.

I didn't say the boost was undeserved just that it exists.

[09042014]

Georgia is basically the an equivalent to an ivy, but for engineering. Though its probably the Cornell of the top engineering schools

I don't buy that. Cornell is the Cornell of the top engineering schools (Its still top 10...)

Cornell is more the Penn of engineering schools. Supposedly good, but nobody knows why.

You know what, I'm gonna agree with that because I don't know why. I know 5 people from Georgia that chose Cornell over GT (which is basically free if you're in state and keep a 3.0). Also I know quite a few that did the same for UMich, I don't understand that either.

Quite insane. Even if Cornell were better, in engineering prestige matters less than other competitive fields.

[crackberry]

These numbers represent admitted applicants to HYS (and Chicago) coming from Stanford UG. LSAT and GPA numbers are means. All this data from the 2007-2008 cycle:

Harvard

38 admits, 172.5, 3.83

Yale

20 admits, 173.7, 3.87

Stanford

42 admits, 170.8, 3.85

University of Chicago

23 admits, 169.3, 3.70


Not a whole lot to be gathered from this data other than that Stanford loves its UG kids and Chicago may give a slight bump to good UGs. Also, interestingly, 25/42 SLS admits went to SLS, 11/20 YLS admits went to YLS, 16/38 HLS admits went to HLS and only 4/23 Chicago admits went to Chicago. Looks like I'm not the only Stanford UG with a particular phobia of Harvard.

[rayiner]

Anecdotal evidence: two of my acceptances so far have been accompanied by personal notes from Deans saying that they love students from my particular school and were happy to see another one apply. Of course, this doesn't necessarily mean anything.

I didn't go to HYP, but a "Top" liberal arts school.

And Iowa sent me a letter congratulating me on my academic excellence. I have a 2.8 with many more C's than A's. You can't trust what they say, they are marketing their school.

It's why the waitress puts a note on the receipt sometimes. Being personal makes people feel a connection.

GW sent me a hand-written note congratulating me on my academic qualifications. With my 2.47.

[rayiner]

To make a long answer short, experience this cycle has absolutely proven to me that my UG institution has mattered, especially since I have a GPA on the lower end (was a varsity athlete).

Crombot makes a good point above. As I've also said elsewhere, (sorry for beating a dead horse but people don't seem to be getting it) data from the Princeton 07-08 admissions cycle show that the average Harvard admit from Princeton had a 3.79 and a 172. Both of these numbers hover around the 25% for Harvard. There's clearly a boost. Whether or not this is deserved or if there's a boost for non HYP elite schools are other matters.

I wonder if you understand how averages and medians work.

I wonder if he knows how numbers work. For the 07-08 admissions cycle, Harvard's 25ths were 3.74 and 170. 3.79/172 is closer to their median, just a bit below.

[rayiner]

Georgia is basically the an equivalent to an ivy, but for engineering. Though its probably the Cornell of the top engineering schools

I don't buy that. Cornell is the Cornell of the top engineering schools (Its still top 10...)

Cornell is more the Penn of engineering schools. Supposedly good, but nobody knows why.

[rayiner]

The average grade awarded at Harvard is 3.45, the average grade awarded at OSU is 3.04.

That is a .4 boost built in.

Absolutely, since the student bodies are basically interchangeable and grades are awarded purely on merit rather than essentially arbitrary curves.

The point is that an average student at Harvard has a 0.4 advantage over the average student at OSU. That's a huge boost for GPA, bearing in mind how little GPA matters for law school admissions to begin with.

[crackberry]

The point is that an average student at Harvard has a 0.4 advantage over the average student at OSU. That's a huge boost for GPA, bearing in mind how little GPA matters for law school admissions to begin with.

Oh come on. Yes, you and your 2.46 may have gotten into Northwestern, but you wouldn't have had a snowball's chance in hell at the T6.

[Nom Sawyer]

The average grade awarded at Harvard is 3.45, the average grade awarded at OSU is 3.04.

That is a .4 boost built in.

Absolutely, since the student bodies are basically interchangeable and grades are awarded purely on merit rather than essentially arbitrary curves.

The point is that an average student at Harvard has a 0.4 advantage over the average student at OSU. That's a huge boost for GPA, bearing in mind how little GPA matters for law school admissions to begin with.

Seriously guys? Cmon... enough of the P.C.... I would bet $$$$ that a HYP student with a 3.4 GPA would have earned a 3.8+ at OSU. Realistically, for law schools your better off going to OSU and crushing it there than going to HYP even with a .4 higher GPA average.

And yes HYP rejected me (well I didn't apply to P)..

[Rawlsian]

The point is that an average student at Harvard has a 0.4 advantage over the average student at OSU. That's a huge boost for GPA, bearing in mind how little GPA matters for law school admissions to begin with.

Oh come on. Yes, you and your 2.46 may have gotten into Northwestern, but you wouldn't have had a snowball's chance in hell at the T6.

It's difficult to detect on this medium, but I think Rayiner was being sarcastic...

[Ragged]

I am not HYP lol. I do believe that if LSAT and GPA are the same that person with the better known, respected school has the edge. Do people not agree with this? Question for me is if it gives any edge if GPA LSAT are similar but not the same. How much of an edge would they get if any? I know that several law schools specifically recruit from some of the higher rated colleges and that is why I am asking.

The answer is no.

In 99.9% cases, a school would rather admit someone with 172 3.9 from the University of McDonald's than someone with 170 3.85 from MIT (the only exceptions I see there is YP in lower ranked schools and Stanford). The reason behind it is that LSAT and GPA is a major factor for USNWR ranking, UG not so much or not at all.

[tumbleweed664]

* Brown: 3.61
* Stanford: 3.55
* Yale: 3.51
* Harvard: 3.45
* Penn: 3.44
* Dartmouth: 3.42
* Columbia: 3.42
* Cornell: 3.36
* Princeton: 3.28

In my experience, Ivy admissions depends on a lot of things besides ability. One person from my high school got into Brown, and we all thought it was amazing. I ended up going to a top liberal arts college with an average GPA of 3.1 that has more than its share of East Coast boarding school kids. It was crazy to me how blasé they thought getting into Brown was. I was shocked when I found out what they thought about their classmates who went to Cornell or Penn, nevermind dregs like Trinity

I love my UG- the Emory Law Dean wrote on my friend's acceptance that no college prepares you better for law school. But man, if I had done as well (or worse!) at any of the Ivys, my GPA would be much higher and not all of my high school teachers would confuse my school with Evergreen. AND I may have gotten a boost in LS admissions!