Military Law Forum

[Patrick Bateman]

I've been lurking this thread for years and I'm finally a rising 3L getting ready to apply to the JAG Corps. I could use some guidance on picking a branch. Shoutout to ya'll for the knowledge, especially Patrick.

I interned with both the Air Force and Army JAG Corps. I want to join to get national security law (operations law) experience and then move to something like the DOD Office of General Counsel's International Affairs Division. (Or any similar agency that advises on national security law.)

I know that the Air Force makes everyone a generalist - prosecuting cases, legal assistance, and miscellaneous administrative law issues. I like that because I like the idea of some practice diversity, and I enjoy trial advocacy a lot. As I understand it, when they notice you're good at something they start throwing more of that at you. I have been advised to be patient for those opportunities and seek assignments at bases with a heavier operational focus, like Hurlburt.

In the Army, I know that you usually start by doing legal assistance for the first year and nothing else. After that you do what you're told, but I hear the Army has more need of national security law practice and has a few NSL-dedicated shops, including in the Pentagon. I'll also admit jump school is a teenage fantasy of mine. But I'm worried about getting stuck in jobs I don't like.

Any thoughts?

You have a strong handle on how the first four years will generally go.

You will likely get to dip your toe into the International Law/Ops Law world sooner at one of the SOWs - 1 SOW at Hurlburt is great for one of your first two assignments. There are also the smaller SOWs at RAF Mildenhall and Kadena AB, which usually have a senior O-3 or junior O-4 as the SJA, which can be an outstanding opportunity. I would also gun for the International Law LLM at that senior O-3 level, which will have some form of ops centric follow-on assignment (though that can also mean teaching the subject at the JAG School or USAFA).

You can also explore staff assignments in JAO, the operations law directorate, which covers everything from cyber to space, as well as AFSOC HQ, and some COCOM options.

We only have one jump billet - as noted by the poster above, Fayetteville on the Army side is your best path to that badge.

Good luck!

[ShortTimeLurker]

You have a strong handle on how the first four years will generally go.

Can speak on the Army perspective.

Thank you both! The part of me that's excited to litigate and get a broad legal background is excited for the Air Force. The part of me that's excited to feel more central to America's national security mission is excited for the Army. Are either of you able to give me a pitch for your branch, so to speak? Which urge do you recommend I follow?

[mrmaxman]

hey everyone,
I'm currently a law school applicant but my heart has been set on military law for a while I just have a couple of questions
1.) Is it true that the acceptance rates are 4-7%, if it's not Does anyone have a more accurate view of the rates and is it higher or lower for reserve/guard components
2.) What would be my day-to-day work as a newly commissioned officer (active or reserves) and how different is it from deployment life
3.) What should I do to set myself apart and be more likely to get a commission or at least an internship with the branches
4.) Do you think going active first and then going to law school would be a good idea (I know this is more of a personal question but I have thought of the idea before)
5.) If I don't get an offer to commission but I do have my JD, would there be anything barring me from commissioning as a non-jag officer in one of the branches?

[ShortTimeLurker]

hey everyone,
I'm currently a law school applicant but my heart has been set on military law for a while I just have a couple of questions
1.) Is it true that the acceptance rates are 4-7%, if it's not Does anyone have a more accurate view of the rates and is it higher or lower for reserve/guard components
2.) What would be my day-to-day work as a newly commissioned officer (active or reserves) and how different is it from deployment life
3.) What should I do to set myself apart and be more likely to get a commission or at least an internship with the branches
4.) Do you think going active first and then going to law school would be a good idea (I know this is more of a personal question but I have thought of the idea before)
5.) If I don't get an offer to commission but I do have my JD, would there be anything barring me from commissioning as a non-jag officer in one of the branches?

As a 3L who hasn't gotten in yet:

1) the selection rates are higher than 4-7% right now because the military is having a massive recruiting crisis overall. It's at historic levels. JAG is still competitive, and I don't have exact numbers, but 4-7% seems way too low right now. Regardless, if you get the internship, that's the main hurdle. My school offered commissions to all students who got the internship and applied last year. Every senior office I've spoken to has told me that the internship is their primary screening tool.

2) I can speak to active life. It depends on the branch. Air Force makes you a generalist. (1) Every Airman has a case load (starting with prosecuting trial-level courts-martial). A couple years later you can apply to be a defense attorney. If accepted, that becomes your whole job. There are also cases that arise in federal court that concern civilian crimes on base. You can also become a special victims counsel, who basically counsels victims of sex crimes to ensure that they understand the legal process and have someone to advocate for them. (2) JAGs also answer legal questions coming down from command. Those questions will range from environmental law to administrative law to ethics and operations law. (3) A couple days per week will be "legal assistance days" where Airmen will come to you with personal legal issues that affect their ability to serve, such as divorces, getting ripped off by car dealers, etc. After 3-4 years of this you can focus your career a bit more on specific areas.

Those roughly three areas of law are the bread of butter of all services, but the Army will make you focus on only one of them at a time for about one to two years at a time. So you might start as an administrative law person. Then a year later you're doing legal assistance. Then maybe prosecuting courts-martial at the trial level. Then maybe national security law. The Navy will force you to rotate through them on a set schedule. So 6 months in legal assistance. Then 6 months in command advisement. Then 12 months in trial services. In both services you will focus on an area of law later on, but I know that the Army will always probably throw you back in the courtroom now and then.

As for the Marines, they expect you to be able to charge a hill if a hill needs to be charged. You can stop considering the Marines if you don't want a chance of seeing combat.

All of the services will make you pass a PT test once or twice a year, so you need to work out. The Air Force has the least stringent standards but you need to run 1.5 miles, do pushups, sit-ups or plank. You can google for the exact tests. For the most part, whether you do group PT or not depends on your individual commander. The Air Force will give you the most freedom to just go to the gym on your own. The Army's big "numbered units" like the 82nd Airborne are going to pressure you to PT with them 5 mornings per week. IDK about the Navy, but it shouldn't be as intense as the Army can be.

3) Trial Advocacy or moot court experience is great - they like litigators. Do things that reflect leadership. Maybe join an organization you're passionate about and try for a leadership role. Stay on top of your physical fitness and demonstrate how. Be sure to communicate that JAG is your goal. Speak to as many JAGs as you can to learn about the life.

4) That's a long-haul but yes, a GI bill is better than school loans. FLEP is better than loans, too. Be prepared to be in the military for 8 years if that's the case though. FLEP is not guaranteed.

5) Not technically, but you should have a very clear vision of what job you want and why you don't want to use the JD you just earned.

[Bop]

Are either of you able to give me a pitch for your branch, so to speak? Which urge do you recommend I follow?

If you don't have your heart set on a particular branch, apply to multiple and see where it takes you. Look at how each branch utilizes their entry level JAGs, look at where bases for each branch are located and go from there. I was accepted to Army and Air Force and chose Army entirely because I had a super helpful and communicative recruiter. Coincidentally, as of 5 days ago, she is now my boss; it's a small world.

hey everyone,
I'm currently a law school applicant but my heart has been set on military law for a while I just have a couple of questions

Just to add a bit to the post above.

2. Best way is to see it yourself is to do a JAG internship during law school. We don't hide the ball from you, you'll see EXACTLY what our day to day looks like. Answering emails, meeting with clients/commanders, and working on cases/motions/legal reviews. Plus a bit of military nonsense.

Deployments can be anything between an overwhelming workload or having nothing to do all day. It just depends on the deployment. In any case you tend to work 6-7 days per week on deployment. The legal needs on deployment can sometimes be different from your normal caseload too; my typical administrative law workload was instead dominated by fiscal law issues (and a sprinkle of national security law) while overseas.

3. Do things. Grades, law review, and moot court are awesome, but the best way to set yourself apart is to be memorable and have unique things to talk about. Clubs, hobbies, organizations, work experience; it can be a bunch of different things. Seemingly mundane things can be a great conversation piece.

4. It can be. Prior military experience is an excellent asset to a JAG, both at the application stage and at the performance of your job. But it can also hurt. If you have a poor performance at a civilian job, you can just conveniently ignore it or gloss over it on your resume/interview. But there is no hiding prior military service. Your permanent military file will be in your application including any evaluations, good or bad.

If finances are a concern, going active duty first and applying to the Funded Legal Education Program can get your entire law school paid for. But I wouldn't join the military with the expectation of getting FLEP, it's extremely competitive. There is a hard cap of 25 acceptances each year and applications have been ballooning.

5. Nothing stopping you from doing this, but there is no clear path back to JAG land if you get a law degree then commission as something other than a JAG. You can't just swap from a basic branch to JAG a year or two down the road. You're looking at 4+ years of non-legal experience following law school. That would be a long gap of having no legal experience and I'd imagine that it's tough (but not impossible) to get your legal career back on track after that.

[Patrick Bateman]

You have a strong handle on how the first four years will generally go.

Can speak on the Army perspective.

Thank you both! The part of me that's excited to litigate and get a broad legal background is excited for the Air Force. The part of me that's excited to feel more central to America's national security mission is excited for the Army. Are either of you able to give me a pitch for your branch, so to speak? Which urge do you recommend I follow?

I would not view things compartmentalized like that - the assignments process is different for those first few assignments, as noted. But there is still plenty of opportunity to litigate in the Army and do the I-Law/Ops Law stuff in the Air Force. It is more a question of the path to, and timing of, those opportunities.

There are some significant practical and cultural differences between the Army and USAF that are more important in my opinion. Some folks are a better fit for one over the other. Jump School and Air Assault may be things you can do in the Army. But you also may be rucking more and doing field exercise stuff as part of your professional life. The Air Force has its corporate/Chair Force reputation - that has worked fine for me for 15 years now.

I would see where you get in and go from there. Some time the universe has a way of making a decision like this for you.

[ShortTimeLurker]

You have a strong handle on how the first four years will generally go.

Can speak on the Army perspective.

Thank you both! The part of me that's excited to litigate and get a broad legal background is excited for the Air Force. The part of me that's excited to feel more central to America's national security mission is excited for the Army. Are either of you able to give me a pitch for your branch, so to speak? Which urge do you recommend I follow?

I would not view things compartmentalized like that - the assignments process is different for those first few assignments, as noted. But there is still plenty of opportunity to litigate in the Army and do the I-Law/Ops Law stuff in the Air Force. It is more a question of the path to, and timing of, those opportunities.

There are some significant practical and cultural differences between the Army and USAF that are more important in my opinion. Some folks are a better fit for one over the other. Jump School and Air Assault may be things you can do in the Army. But you also may be rucking more and doing field exercise stuff as part of your professional life. The Air Force has its corporate/Chair Force reputation - that has worked fine for me for 15 years now.

I would see where you get in and go from there. Some time the universe has a way of making a decision like this for you.

And how are the hours in the USAF? Army FORCECOM installations clearly require PT at 0600 or 0620 before the work day starts at 0900. Trial counselors report working long after 1700 to boot.

I adore exercise, but I am the type of person who needs 8 hours of sleep to recover or I decline hard, so I'm worried about the Army's hours.

[Bop]

You have a strong handle on how the first four years will generally go.

Can speak on the Army perspective.

Thank you both! The part of me that's excited to litigate and get a broad legal background is excited for the Air Force. The part of me that's excited to feel more central to America's national security mission is excited for the Army. Are either of you able to give me a pitch for your branch, so to speak? Which urge do you recommend I follow?

I would not view things compartmentalized like that - the assignments process is different for those first few assignments, as noted. But there is still plenty of opportunity to litigate in the Army and do the I-Law/Ops Law stuff in the Air Force. It is more a question of the path to, and timing of, those opportunities.

There are some significant practical and cultural differences between the Army and USAF that are more important in my opinion. Some folks are a better fit for one over the other. Jump School and Air Assault may be things you can do in the Army. But you also may be rucking more and doing field exercise stuff as part of your professional life. The Air Force has its corporate/Chair Force reputation - that has worked fine for me for 15 years now.

I would see where you get in and go from there. Some time the universe has a way of making a decision like this for you.

And how are the hours in the USAF? Army FORCECOM installations clearly require PT at 0600 or 0620 before the work day starts at 0900. Trial counselors report working long after 1700 to boot.

I adore exercise, but I am the type of person who needs 8 hours of sleep to recover or I decline hard, so I'm worried about the Army's hours.

I am in this post and I don't like it lol. I am currently a trial counsel with the Army at a FORSCOM unit with a heavy PT schedule and I NEED 8 hours of sleep.

Here's how I handle it: I'm in bed no later than 9 PM. I have a very short commute to work (something I will never budge on). Then, I'm among a handful of TCs in my office who work early instead of late. I get to my office around 0530 and work until 0615. Then after PT+shower (we have a shower in our building) I start work again around 0815 and can usually leave between 1700-1730.

Also, even if you end up a TC/TDS in a high volume FORSCOM office, military justice time is only a sliver of your JAG experience (unless you love that line of work and want to focus on litigation during your career). I'm on my third job in the JAG Corps, all of which have been at a large FORSCOM office, and every job prior to TC has been a fairly consistent 0900 to 1700. There are very busy jobs in the Army and very chill jobs in the Army. I doubt you'll escape that reality by being in a different service.

[Patrick Bateman]

There are very busy jobs in the Army and very chill jobs in the Army. I doubt you'll escape that reality by being in a different service.

Fully agreed. Same with any practice of law, military or civilian. Litigation jobs are going to have peaks and valleys in terms of intensity. Transactional/staff jobs may be more steady. Some jobs require a lot of travel, others do not.

If the 8 hours is your make or break, you will have to figure how to achieve that against all the other variables.

[ShortTimeLurker]

I am in this post and I don't like it lol. I am currently a trial counsel with the Army at a FORSCOM unit with a heavy PT schedule

What kind of exercises are involved in that PT?

[ShortTimeLurker]

You will likely get to dip your toe into the International Law/Ops Law world sooner at one of the SOWs

How soon would you say that is, and what kind of work would that likely entail? Appreciate the guidance.

[Jrt]

Hello. I am in my junior year of undergrad determining which law school I would like to attend. I am an Iowa native and am extremely interested in pursuing the University of Iowa's 3+3 law program, but am conflicted as there is no naval base nearby. If I wanted to participate in Navy summer internships would I need to relocate during law school summers? Likewise, would I have to relocate for Air Force internships? Suggestions?
Thank you!

[Anonymous User]

If you do an summer internship for the Air Force but apply to join the Navy/Army, will they disregard the internship since it is not with their respective branch?

[Patrick Bateman]

Hello. I am in my junior year of undergrad determining which law school I would like to attend. I am an Iowa native and am extremely interested in pursuing the University of Iowa's 3+3 law program, but am conflicted as there is no naval base nearby. If I wanted to participate in Navy summer internships would I need to relocate during law school summers? Likewise, would I have to relocate for Air Force internships? Suggestions?
Thank you!

Any JAG internship is going to have you physically at that particular office for the summer. No different than if you went to a law firm as a summer associate.

You also do not need a military installation co-located with your law school in order to pursue JAG, Navy or otherwise.

[Patrick Bateman]

If you do an summer internship for the Air Force but apply to join the Navy/Army, will they disregard the internship since it is not with their respective branch?

A sister service internship will still help - maybe not as much as interning for the service for which you hope to commission, but it will still look good on your resume.

[Bop]

I am in this post and I don't like it lol. I am currently a trial counsel with the Army at a FORSCOM unit with a heavy PT schedule

What kind of exercises are involved in that PT?

This varies WILDLY depending on your leadership and fitness funding; quite a few units on my installation have their own fitness trainers to create PT plans for them. My unit doesn't have that, but we have access to our own set of gym equipment. We run on Mondays, weights on Tuesdays, breakout fitness groups on Wednesdays (choice between cardio or weights/crossfit), flex Thursdays (usually either PT on your own which means a day off, or something unique like rucking/yoga), sports on Friday.

And to quickly answer the two questions above:

1. Yes, you will likely need to relocate, but the majority of interns are in the same boat. Realistically, most military installations are nowhere near any law schools. If this is a concern, I'd talk to the intern recruiter about the situation to get their advice. My office's interns this summer split an AirBnB together. YMMV.

2. Interns who switch branches is very common. Reach out to your intern coordinator and see if they'll forward your evaluation to other branches. Worst case, if you have the email address of someone from your internship, reach out to them and ask them for a letter of rec.

[Anonymous User]

What do selection rates for Navy Student Program look like right now? Same with Air Force DAP, OYCP, GLP? If selection rates high right now with the recruiting shortage are they expected to remain high?

[Anonymous User]

Anyone heard back from August AF board?

[howell]

I want to join to get national security law (operations law) experience and then move to something like the DOD Office of General Counsel's International Affairs Division. (Or any similar agency that advises on national security law.)

Question for the group - would the Navy be the best option here? I have traditionally seen them as much more focused on Ops. They seem to live and breathe it whereas maybe 10% of AF JAGs get to do anything remotely interesting in the Ops world, and an even smaller percentage are approaching competent in this area.

[Anonymous User]

USAF OTS official Facebook group posted the following update:

"We know we have been a bit quiet recently but big things are on the horizon! Our world class staff is hard at work creating OTS-Victory (OTS-V), a new curriculum focused accelerating the development of 21st century warrior-minded leaders of character. Stay tuned for more updates and where you can find more information about OTS-V!"

Does this mean OTS will be shorter (given "accelerating")?

If there are changes, when will this go into effect?
Apparently there was a trial run of a 2-week-long OTS class in July but I thought they canned that because it was (allegedly) distastrous.

Any thoughts?

[Anonymous User]

Anyone heard back from August AF board?

Would also love to know if anyone has heard back yet

[soccerplaer]

Anyone heard back from August AF board?

Would also love to know if anyone has heard back yet

I have not heard back yet. The application portal says no changes can be made until a decision has been made. Part of me wants to think that a decision has not been made. Labor Day will be the three week mark.

[GreyHand23]

Anyone heard back from August AF board?

I got the call this morning that I was accepted, so I imagine it should happen this week for those that are waiting.

[soccerplaer]

Anyone heard back from August AF board?

I got the call this morning that I was accepted, so I imagine it should happen this week for those that are waiting.

Congrats! You on the east or west coast? I still haven’t heard anything so fingers crossed.

[Anonymous User]

Got my acceptance call yesterday. Good luck to those still waiting!