AUSA (Crim) vs. DOJ Fed Programs vs. DOJ ENRD Forum

[Anonymous User]

Just hoping to get some perspectives on the three jobs in the subject line, particularly with respect to quality and variety of exit options down the line. AUSA seems more trial focused and more flexible in terms of what you can do afterwards, but I know these jobs are apples and oranges, so I would like to hear other takes.

[Anonymous User]

I think the first consideration is just whether you want to do civil or criminal, because it can be hard to go from one to the other. And then within civil, do you want focus on environmental stuff? Because main justice programs tend to specialize a LOT. I think fed programs could be the most sophisticated/prestigious, again depending on what you do (and if you’re comfortable defending the executive).

Another issue is where the AUSA gig is - some people have the assumption that AUSA is a stepping stone to big law (especially partner) and it is very very dependent on what kinds of cases you do. Not all AUSAs get the kind of experience on complex white collar cases that makes you desirable to a biglaw firm - you can spend a lot of time on drugs, guns, child porn, and other kinds of frauds and you’ll have trial experience but that won’t necessarily open biglaw doors. (If you’re in SDNY/EDNY or a similarly really big sophisticated metro area, there’s more of a tradition of the revolving door, and it does happen elsewhere, but just not as much as people sometimes assume.) I do know some AUSAs who’ve gone to firms, but in my circle it’s not very common.

[Anonymous User]

I think the first consideration is just whether you want to do civil or criminal, because it can be hard to go from one to the other. And then within civil, do you want focus on environmental stuff? Because main justice programs tend to specialize a LOT. I think fed programs could be the most sophisticated/prestigious, again depending on what you do (and if you’re comfortable defending the executive).

Another issue is where the AUSA gig is - some people have the assumption that AUSA is a stepping stone to big law (especially partner) and it is very very dependent on what kinds of cases you do. Not all AUSAs get the kind of experience on complex white collar cases that makes you desirable to a biglaw firm - you can spend a lot of time on drugs, guns, child porn, and other kinds of frauds and you’ll have trial experience but that won’t necessarily open biglaw doors. (If you’re in SDNY/EDNY or a similarly really big sophisticated metro area, there’s more of a tradition of the revolving door, and it does happen elsewhere, but just not as much as people sometimes assume.) I do know some AUSAs who’ve gone to firms, but in my circle it’s not very common.

Experienced Civil AUSA here. A former United States Attorney literally told me once in a casual conversation, "I have no idea what I'm doing in civil cases." Like many former USA's this one had a cushy job at a biglaw firm, handling strictly white collar criminal matters and/or government investigations. If you stick to criminal and play your cards right, you'll be okay if biglaw is where you want to end up. But if you only know criminal, you might flail around in a panic if you suddenly transition to civil.

And to make it into biglaw criminal, your odds will depend on how well you manage your career and reputation. I know a criminal AUSA who left the office a long time ago and has had a pretty meh career since then as a solo practitioner.

I've gone head to head countless times in civil cases with former criminal lawyers. I only very rarely encounter any who are impressive, and could handle the matter without the help of actual civil litigators within their firm. It's a difficult transition to make, criminal to civil, for lots of interesting reasons. The standards of proof are wildly different, the culture is wildly different, and the evaluation of facts you're going to fight about is just done in a different way than in criminal. So if you're a criminal AUSA, you might want to just plan on sticking to criminal and becoming a respected expert in it. And don't forget, unless you want to be a government lifer, switching to biglaw means you will now be defending bad guys for the rest of your life.

(Being a government lifer is awesome by the way. This is a great gig. Former AUSAs I run into tell me constantly how DOJ was the best job they ever had in their career. People leave for various reasons that I can't and won't judge, I assume mostly paying bills. But don't treat it as a given that you have to leave.)

[Anonymous User]

Just hoping to get some perspectives on the three jobs in the subject line, particularly with respect to quality and variety of exit options down the line. AUSA seems more trial focused and more flexible in terms of what you can do afterwards, but I know these jobs are apples and oranges, so I would like to hear other takes.

This is kind of a strange post, mostly because big law associates by and large want these gigs after a few years in BL. Besides that, as these are all prestigious gigs (and assuming you’re still in law school or clerking), I would take whatever option you end up having. If you applied through DOJ Honors, most components/branches are interviewing 4-5 people per spot + veterans. I wouldn’t bank on having all three options.

With that being said, if you want to end up in big law anyways, this may not be the right career move for you. Crim fraud or Public Integrity are probably the most directly relevant to a big law career later on. Like another poster said, the vast majority of AUSAs are doing drugs, guns, and child porn. Even if it’s a prestigious district, you’ll start doing drugs and guns so if you want to exit to big law in the next few years, you likely won’t have any experience that would be directly relevant. Fed programs is kind of it’s own beast and I’m sure you could end up in big law from there, but the transition from civil to criminal would be tough as mentioned. As for ENRD, I honestly don’t know enough about what they do to be helpful.

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

I think fed programs could be the most sophisticated/prestigious, again depending on what you do (and if you’re comfortable defending the executive).

That's what I'm hearing, but I'm not exactly sure what the path going forward is. Doesn't seem like the kind of job that leads to being a biglaw partner. Do people who get in just stay in fed programs or try to get political appointments or something? Or go into some kind of ideological nonprofit?

Another issue is where the AUSA gig is - some people have the assumption that AUSA is a stepping stone to big law (especially partner) and it is very very dependent on what kinds of cases you do. Not all AUSAs get the kind of experience on complex white collar cases that makes you desirable to a biglaw firm - you can spend a lot of time on drugs, guns, child porn, and other kinds of frauds and you’ll have trial experience but that won’t necessarily open biglaw doors. (If you’re in SDNY/EDNY or a similarly really big sophisticated metro area, there’s more of a tradition of the revolving door, and it does happen elsewhere, but just not as much as people sometimes assume.) I do know some AUSAs who’ve gone to firms, but in my circle it’s not very common.

Assume mid-sized city in the south.

[Chubbyleaous]

and pay attention to the psychological impact and the grind of working on cases involving kiddie porn

I've known people who do this and come home feeling ill daily

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

I think fed programs could be the most sophisticated/prestigious, again depending on what you do (and if you’re comfortable defending the executive).

That's what I'm hearing, but I'm not exactly sure what the path going forward is. Doesn't seem like the kind of job that leads to being a biglaw partner. Do people who get in just stay in fed programs or try to get political appointments or something? Or go into some kind of ideological nonprofit?

Another issue is where the AUSA gig is - some people have the assumption that AUSA is a stepping stone to big law (especially partner) and it is very very dependent on what kinds of cases you do. Not all AUSAs get the kind of experience on complex white collar cases that makes you desirable to a biglaw firm - you can spend a lot of time on drugs, guns, child porn, and other kinds of frauds and you’ll have trial experience but that won’t necessarily open biglaw doors. (If you’re in SDNY/EDNY or a similarly really big sophisticated metro area, there’s more of a tradition of the revolving door, and it does happen elsewhere, but just not as much as people sometimes assume.) I do know some AUSAs who’ve gone to firms, but in my circle it’s not very common.

Assume mid-sized city in the south.

Experienced civil AUSA here. I actually started my career in private. DOJ and similar employers are normally the end goal, not the starting point to end up at biglaw. Biglaw is normally the starting point. If you're not married or if you have a tolerant spouse, and no kids, now is the time to ruin your physical health, mental health, and personal relationships by over-working yourself at a law firm for huge amounts of money. Sock the money away or pay off your student loans. And then leave for a cool job that still pays pretty well.

But breaking into biglaw from a USAO where you're doing criminal is going to be difficult, especially if you're not in NYC, Chicago, et al. White collar criminal positions in biglaw are just numerically rare compared to the huge market for civil litigation. If you were a much older criminal AUSA you could at least offer your seasoned trial experience and savvy as a selling point to law firms. But it's just not much of a selling point if you're a 5 year lawyer.

[Anonymous User]

OP here.

I think fed programs could be the most sophisticated/prestigious, again depending on what you do (and if you’re comfortable defending the executive).

That's what I'm hearing, but I'm not exactly sure what the path going forward is. Doesn't seem like the kind of job that leads to being a biglaw partner. Do people who get in just stay in fed programs or try to get political appointments or something? Or go into some kind of ideological nonprofit?

Another issue is where the AUSA gig is - some people have the assumption that AUSA is a stepping stone to big law (especially partner) and it is very very dependent on what kinds of cases you do. Not all AUSAs get the kind of experience on complex white collar cases that makes you desirable to a biglaw firm - you can spend a lot of time on drugs, guns, child porn, and other kinds of frauds and you’ll have trial experience but that won’t necessarily open biglaw doors. (If you’re in SDNY/EDNY or a similarly really big sophisticated metro area, there’s more of a tradition of the revolving door, and it does happen elsewhere, but just not as much as people sometimes assume.) I do know some AUSAs who’ve gone to firms, but in my circle it’s not very common.

Assume mid-sized city in the south.

I agree with civil AUSA above, fed programs is more of an end-goal/lifer position. You probably could go from there into some of the higher level political government appointments, maybe. But I have an acquaintance who went to fed programs out of law school, after clerking, and worked there for 20+ yrs. They then quit when Trump was going to make fed programs attack Obamacare, and went to a biglaw firm as partner in their health care practice for a couple of years, then went back to fed programs after Biden took office. That's obviously not going to be everyone, but a lot of people in fedgov are lifers - it is usually a place people are trying to go more than a stepping-stone to something else.

I actually think that of the three options, ENRD is going to be most transferable to other contexts because you will become so familiar with the federal regulations etc. that affect a lot of industries/entities. You could probably go to an environmental defense non-profit (but ENRD will probably pay more), or you could go to biglaw. The issue here is that you have to want to specialize in environmental law, and if you want to go to biglaw you have to be willing to defend big companies (to be fair, big law environmental work can entail a lot of helping companies comply with federal regulations, not just get around them, but their interests aren't always aligned with those of the environment).

As for mid-sized city in the south, a lot of criminal AUSAs will also be lifers. Some will go on to be judges. Others go into private criminal defense. Because it's a small bar, you may well get to know enough people that you could go to a firm of some kind, but the experience isn't going to get you to biglaw automatically. It would depend on what you do, which is going to be a lot of guns, drugs, and child porn. (There also may not be a lot of biglaw.)