DOJ Honors Program 2019-2020 Forum

[Anonymous User]

Curious if anyone has received an offer from BIA? Designated finalist before the cut off date but to my knowledge my references have not been checked yet. Thanks.

Got a BIA offer within a day or two of becoming a finalist. Had to turn it down a couple days later due to life-circumstances changes, which sucked. I hope you hear from them!

[Anonymous User]

I know of people turning down OCIJ because of where they got placed, and someone who accepted then reneged on a USAO gig. What specifically is giving you pause? (There are definitely reasonable bases for saying no, IMHO, especially now.) What are your other options? (Anecdotally, if you have a CR offer you probably have other choices.)

What gives me pause is mainly geography - I'm a west coaster and would like to keep it that way, all else equal. But not just that: DOJ's reputation right now is... bleak, and even if Civil Rights isn't actively doing terrible things, I think it would be demoralizing to work there (esp god forbid if the election goes poorly). Also a tiny bit concerned about stigma, though if DOJ goes back to being respectable under another admin, I think people would forget that.

I'm considering an honors program with an independent regulatory agency, which doesn't solve the DC problem but is much less polarizing, even if not immune from politics. Also considering seeing how the fellowships cycle (EJW etc.) plays out or waiting from the California AG to get it's act together. I'm not REALLY concerned about not getting a job (yet), since it's still so early in the process, but I actually have none of these things in hand, so I'd be going out on a limb to turn it down without another offer.

If you can't let go of politics, the Federal Government is probably not the best place for you to work. Even if the election "goes well" next year, there will eventually be an election where you disagree with the party in power, or even if you agree with the party in power, you disagree with the policy. I say this as someone who has worked within the Federal Government for years because of love for public service. The appointees determine the policy direction of each agency, not the civil employees. There will be times when you disagree with the policy direction, and you will have to let your opinion go because the American people did not elect you into the position. The American people didn't vote for you. That's the whole purpose of the Hatch Act. It's to ensure that federal employees are not partisan and undermining the will of the American people.

So to put simply, if you feel politically passionate about an issue and still want to work in government, it would be better to pursue opportunities in Congress, where political leaning is part of the hiring decision, or a state or local government that you know will lean politically in one direction or the other, and there is not a high chance of that turning over with each election.

Or you only put in a few years under your preferred Administration, and then jump ship when you don't agree, but to be honest, if that is what you want to do, you should be looking at appointee positions instead and gaining connection with the campaign you think is going to win. The Plum Book has a list of all the Presidential Appointee positions.

But on your point about "DOJ's reputation", I completely disagree. DOJ Honors is still a highly respected and competitive process, and people in the legal field recognize the difference between appointee and civil servants. They know that just because you are are civil servant does not mean you agree with everything the Administration is doing. If they don't, then they don't understand how the Federal Government operates.

Currently clerking in the judiciary - can confirm that DOJ's reputation is tarnished. Career people are the ones having to carry out these policies, even if they aren't setting them. I think that means they are in part responsible for DOJ's actions. Now, Civil Rights /might/ be a different story (honestly no idea).

I also take issue with the idea that if you are passionate about an issue that you shouldn't join DOJ. The Hatch Act is not the Constitution -- if you feel strongly that civil rights laws should be aggressively enforced and not disregarded, it's valid to quit when an administration decides to disregard them. "Public service," imho, is illusory -- you are enacting an administration's enforcement priorities. If the admin uses its power to cage children, take away food stamps, and allow rampant pollution, I would say you are in fact /not/ working in the public interest by enacting that agenda. /endrant

[Anonymous User]

Curious if anyone has received an offer from BIA? Designated finalist before the cut off date but to my knowledge my references have not been checked yet. Thanks.

Got a BIA offer within a day or two of becoming a finalist. Had to turn it down a couple days later due to life-circumstances changes, which sucked. I hope you hear from them!

Thank you for the information! Do you mind sharing if/when they checked your references?

[Anonymous User]

Curious if anyone has received an offer from BIA? Designated finalist before the cut off date but to my knowledge my references have not been checked yet. Thanks.

Got a BIA offer within a day or two of becoming a finalist. Had to turn it down a couple days later due to life-circumstances changes, which sucked. I hope you hear from them!

Thank you for the information! Do you mind sharing if/when they checked your references?

I can’t remember if it was right before or right after I was designated a finalist, but either way it was within a few days of designation. They did phone calls, not emails.

[Anonymous User]

Hey guys—wondering if anyone has received an offer from BOP yet. I’ve been designated a finalist but it’s been radio silence otherwise.

[Anonymous User]

I received an offer from BOP the week before Thanksgiving, about a day or so after I was designated as a finalist. But I declined the offer last week because I accepted an offer from a different component.

[Anonymous User]

I received an offer from BOP the week before Thanksgiving, about a day or so after I was designated as a finalist. But I declined the offer last week because I accepted an offer from a different component.

Congratulations! And glad you turned down BOP I guess that puts me one position higher on the alternate list.

[Anonymous User]

I know of people turning down OCIJ because of where they got placed, and someone who accepted then reneged on a USAO gig. What specifically is giving you pause? (There are definitely reasonable bases for saying no, IMHO, especially now.) What are your other options? (Anecdotally, if you have a CR offer you probably have other choices.)

What gives me pause is mainly geography - I'm a west coaster and would like to keep it that way, all else equal. But not just that: DOJ's reputation right now is... bleak, and even if Civil Rights isn't actively doing terrible things, I think it would be demoralizing to work there (esp god forbid if the election goes poorly). Also a tiny bit concerned about stigma, though if DOJ goes back to being respectable under another admin, I think people would forget that.

I'm considering an honors program with an independent regulatory agency, which doesn't solve the DC problem but is much less polarizing, even if not immune from politics. Also considering seeing how the fellowships cycle (EJW etc.) plays out or waiting from the California AG to get it's act together. I'm not REALLY concerned about not getting a job (yet), since it's still so early in the process, but I actually have none of these things in hand, so I'd be going out on a limb to turn it down without another offer.

If you can't let go of politics, the Federal Government is probably not the best place for you to work. Even if the election "goes well" next year, there will eventually be an election where you disagree with the party in power, or even if you agree with the party in power, you disagree with the policy. I say this as someone who has worked within the Federal Government for years because of love for public service. The appointees determine the policy direction of each agency, not the civil employees. There will be times when you disagree with the policy direction, and you will have to let your opinion go because the American people did not elect you into the position. The American people didn't vote for you. That's the whole purpose of the Hatch Act. It's to ensure that federal employees are not partisan and undermining the will of the American people.

So to put simply, if you feel politically passionate about an issue and still want to work in government, it would be better to pursue opportunities in Congress, where political leaning is part of the hiring decision, or a state or local government that you know will lean politically in one direction or the other, and there is not a high chance of that turning over with each election.

Or you only put in a few years under your preferred Administration, and then jump ship when you don't agree, but to be honest, if that is what you want to do, you should be looking at appointee positions instead and gaining connection with the campaign you think is going to win. The Plum Book has a list of all the Presidential Appointee positions.

But on your point about "DOJ's reputation", I completely disagree. DOJ Honors is still a highly respected and competitive process, and people in the legal field recognize the difference between appointee and civil servants. They know that just because you are are civil servant does not mean you agree with everything the Administration is doing. If they don't, then they don't understand how the Federal Government operates.

Currently clerking in the judiciary - can confirm that DOJ's reputation is tarnished. Career people are the ones having to carry out these policies, even if they aren't setting them. I think that means they are in part responsible for DOJ's actions. Now, Civil Rights /might/ be a different story (honestly no idea).

I also take issue with the idea that if you are passionate about an issue that you shouldn't join DOJ. The Hatch Act is not the Constitution -- if you feel strongly that civil rights laws should be aggressively enforced and not disregarded, it's valid to quit when an administration decides to disregard them. "Public service," imho, is illusory -- you are enacting an administration's enforcement priorities. If the admin uses its power to cage children, take away food stamps, and allow rampant pollution, I would say you are in fact /not/ working in the public interest by enacting that agenda. /endrant

Different anon from the current federal employee above. Respectfully, the opinions of one judge or even one district doesn't necessarily establish that the DOJ's reputation has been "tarnished." Also, even if its reputation is unfavorable at the moment, what's the alternative? The DOJ is the only game in town in terms of meeting federal legal and prosecutorial ends, ends and matters which will always need and sharpen the most top-notch legal minds. That will always be the case regardless of political climate, and people will always know the DOJ needs and builds the best legal minds. The only exception is probably civil rights, which can still be enforced via state AGs, private parties, nonprofits, etc.

The majority of the DOJ's mandate cannot be carried out according to different shades of political leanings. The facts of criminal and civil actions will always be the facts and will lead to the same results regardless of political leaning. Immigration is, admittedly, a different case. But even in civil rights, the discriminatory conduct will have occurred, and some discriminatory conduct will still be targeted even by a DOJ led by a non-sympathetic administration--even if discrimination is generally not targeted as aggressively as it should be.

Finally, there is something to be said about remaining during a non-sympathetic administration to hone your skills, serve the public to the extent that you can, and being patient till the opportunity arises to serve under an empowering pro-civil rights administration.

[anonuser1988]

I received an OCIJ offer Wednesday afternoon via email for my first choice court (Phoenix). Celia said offers were going out "this week." My references were checked shortly after my interview. Good luck to the rest of the candidates and looking forward to meeting my future colleagues in PHX!

[Anonymous User]

I've been lurking this thread for awhile now without posting. Accepted a USAO position with Arizona. Any other USAO hires out there?

[Anonymous User]

Anyone else hear anything on OCIJ? I know someone mentioned a lot of offers might be going out today.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone else hear anything on OCIJ? I know someone mentioned a lot of offers might be going out today.

nothing yet, let's hope today is the day our phone rings!

[Anonymous User]

Anyone else hear anything on OCIJ? I know someone mentioned a lot of offers might be going out today.

nothing yet, let's hope today is the day our phone rings!

I will say that my hope is running low as the clock nears 5...

[Anonymous User]

Just turned down USTP and Civil Div-Comm Lit. Best of luck to alternates

[Anonymous User]

Anyone else hear anything on OCIJ? I know someone mentioned a lot of offers might be going out today.

nothing yet, let's hope today is the day our phone rings!

I will say that my hope is running low as the clock nears 5...

Someone in DC told me that OCIJ really does extend offers until February. But it would have been nice anxiety wise to have heard today

[Anonymous User]

Just turned down USTP and Civil Div-Comm Lit. Best of luck to alternates

Wow, that may have just put me back in the game! Are you able to share what made you turn them down?

[Anonymous User]

Just turned down USTP and Civil Div-Comm Lit. Best of luck to alternates

Do you mind sharing what location you were placed at for USTP?

[Anonymous User]

Just received an offer from OCIJ via email for Orlando (the only court I picked). Good luck to everyone else!

[Anonymous User]

Just turned down USTP and Civil Div-Comm Lit. Best of luck to alternates

Wow, that may have just put me back in the game! Are you able to share what made you turn them down?

I accepted an offer with another, non-DOJ honors program that's a bit closer to my interests and long-term career goals. I really liked the people I met in DOJ, but there was another program that made more sense for me personally. I won't say which USTP office I was going to be placed in, but it was not DC or one of the main two or three target Chapter 11 fora.

[Anonymous User]

Just declined an OCIJ offer for Arlington. Good luck to anyone who preferenced!

[Anonymous User]

how do you all know if you're chosen as a finalist or an alternate? I reached out to Celia and she just said I was a finalist. My status on avue says finalist. But from my understanding the "finalist" designation can mean you're an alternate....pretty confused

[Anonymous User]

You have to be a finalist to get an offer or be an alternate; the short answer is that you don’t know if you’re an alternate until you get an offer (you weren’t an alternate) or you don’t (you were).

Being a finalist means that OARM has approved DOJ making you an offer should they choose to do so. Some components (mostly OCIJ) will select more finalists than they anticipate hiring so if someone turns them down, they have a second choice waiting. (This is particularly pertinent for OCIJ because they hire the most people so have the most sort of melt in yield, and they place hirees all over, so some people will turn them down based on where they get placed.)

So you have to be a finalist to be able to get hired, but being a finalist isn’t a guarantee that you will get hired. All alternates are finalists, but not all finalists are alternates (damn I feel like a bad LSAT question).

[ccss12]

You have to be a finalist to get an offer or be an alternate; the short answer is that you don’t know if you’re an alternate until you get an offer (you weren’t an alternate) or you don’t (you were).

Being a finalist means that OARM has approved DOJ making you an offer should they choose to do so. Some components (mostly OCIJ) will select more finalists than they anticipate hiring so if someone turns them down, they have a second choice waiting. (This is particularly pertinent for OCIJ because they hire the most people so have the most sort of melt in yield, and they place hirees all over, so some people will turn them down based on where they get placed.)

So you have to be a finalist to be able to get hired, but being a finalist isn’t a guarantee that you will get hired. All alternates are finalists, but not all finalists are alternates (damn I feel like a bad LSAT question).

thanks for the clarification! Has anyone gotten any other OCIJ offers yet?

[Anonymous User]

I just received an offer from OCIJ via email!

Good luck everyone!

[Anonymous User]

I just received an offer from OCIJ via email!

Good luck everyone!

Do you mind saying which court? Also, has anyone else heard from OCIJ?