Military Law Forum

[TTTTgunner]

Now that space force is a thing, how does one become a JAG for the Space Force?

[Anonymous User]

Hey all,

Quick question (hopefully) about first duty stations (Army AD): Exactly how much "say" do we have in where we end up? I understand that we'll receive a list of available duty stations, and are asked to rank our top 8, but that's about all I know with respect to that.

I'm currently deciding between Army AD and reserves (received an offer for both, and have until Friday to decide). My fiance is about to graduate medical school, and ideally, we'd like to end up in CA, DC, VA, TX, or NY. We have family in some of those states, and job opportunities for her would be plentiful. What are my odds of ending up in one of those states?

Part of me is considered reserves, but would probably regret not going AD.

Well if you put Fort Irwin on your list, you'll almost certainly get it and can stay in CA that way as no one wants to go there...

I've heard the rumors. I actually wouldn't mind Irwin too much, but how likely is it to be one of the bases listed? It would be great to end up in DC/VA/MD, but was told by a JAG buddy that my odds of that are slim to none. I'm guessing there's no way to figure out which bases will be listed on the list of available bases to chose from.

For me, we got almost no choices on the list near DC

[Anonymous User]

Hey all,

Quick question (hopefully) about first duty stations (Army AD): Exactly how much "say" do we have in where we end up? I understand that we'll receive a list of available duty stations, and are asked to rank our top 8, but that's about all I know with respect to that.

I'm currently deciding between Army AD and reserves (received an offer for both, and have until Friday to decide). My fiance is about to graduate medical school, and ideally, we'd like to end up in CA, DC, VA, TX, or NY. We have family in some of those states, and job opportunities for her would be plentiful. What are my odds of ending up in one of those states?

Part of me is considered reserves, but would probably regret not going AD.

I'm curious how the recent AD Army folks fared on their priority list. Personally, I got my #1 preference (it was not considered a "high-demand" base).

As far as CA, DC, VA, TX, NY, here is what we were offered and I know most of these bases have consistently been on the list to be selected: Ft Irwin, Presidio, Quantico, Ft Eustis, Ft Lee, Ft Bliss, Ft Hood, JBSA, Ft Drum, and West Point.

[Anonymous User]

Hey all,

Quick question (hopefully) about first duty stations (Army AD): Exactly how much "say" do we have in where we end up? I understand that we'll receive a list of available duty stations, and are asked to rank our top 8, but that's about all I know with respect to that.

I'm currently deciding between Army AD and reserves (received an offer for both, and have until Friday to decide). My fiance is about to graduate medical school, and ideally, we'd like to end up in CA, DC, VA, TX, or NY. We have family in some of those states, and job opportunities for her would be plentiful. What are my odds of ending up in one of those states?

Part of me is considered reserves, but would probably regret not going AD.

I'm curious how the recent AD Army folks fared on their priority list. Personally, I got my #1 preference (it was not considered a "high-demand" base).

As far as CA, DC, VA, TX, NY, here is what we were offered and I know most of these bases have consistently been on the list to be selected: Ft Irwin, Presidio, Quantico, Ft Eustis, Ft Lee, Ft Bliss, Ft Hood, JBSA, Ft Drum, and West Point.

I got my 7th choice. (also, join the FB group if you haven't yet: 210th JAOBC)

[kinge]

0L curious about JAG here.

How selective is JAG nowadays? As I understand it, JAG was way more selective during the recession years. I have no military background and my father and grandfather served in a foreign military (my dad immigrated to the US). I am applying to T14 schools and have been accepted to WUSTL.

Do people leave JAG like any other job or do they mostly treat it as a career-long commitment? What options do they have when they leave?

[howell]

0L curious about JAG here.

How selective is JAG nowadays? As I understand it, JAG was way more selective during the recession years. I have no military background and my father and grandfather served in a foreign military (my dad immigrated to the US). I am applying to T14 schools and have been accepted to WUSTL.

Do people leave JAG like any other job or do they mostly treat it as a career-long commitment? What options do they have when they leave?

The last numbers I was briefed on, I think in the summer of 2018, showed that the selection rate for the Air Force was back up to about 10%. Not sure if it's changed since then. During the recession, the lowest year was 4%. As an 0L, if you don't have any significant obstacles to overcome (e.g., criminal background, significant drug use, etc.), you can mold yourself into what the JAG corps are looking for over your law school career, greatly increasing your odds. Also note that you can apply as many times as you would like to. Many people take more than one try to get in.

There is a lot of information on your other questions in this (gigantic) thread. It's worth reading through if you're interested; it's the best JAG information I've found online. But to answer your question briefly, some people stay, but a lot leave. Most who leave will do so between the 4 and 10 year points. During that time, you're less invested in the active duty retirement, and you will likely be at your peak marketability coming out of the JAG Corps. For those who leave before 20, the Guard and Reserve can be fantastic options.

[thriller1122]

Now that space force is a thing, how does one become a JAG for the Space Force?

Go Air Force. It will probably be years before Space Force is actually recruiting JAGs. It is going to be one of the last areas they need behind medical/finance.

[kinge]

0L curious about JAG here.

How selective is JAG nowadays? As I understand it, JAG was way more selective during the recession years. I have no military background and my father and grandfather served in a foreign military (my dad immigrated to the US). I am applying to T14 schools and have been accepted to WUSTL.

Do people leave JAG like any other job or do they mostly treat it as a career-long commitment? What options do they have when they leave?

The last numbers I was briefed on, I think in the summer of 2018, showed that the selection rate for the Air Force was back up to about 10%. Not sure if it's changed since then. During the recession, the lowest year was 4%. As an 0L, if you don't have any significant obstacles to overcome (e.g., criminal background, significant drug use, etc.), you can mold yourself into what the JAG corps are looking for over your law school career, greatly increasing your odds. Also note that you can apply as many times as you would like to. Many people take more than one try to get in.

There is a lot of information on your other questions in this (gigantic) thread. It's worth reading through if you're interested; it's the best JAG information I've found online. But to answer your question briefly, some people stay, but a lot leave. Most who leave will do so between the 4 and 10 year points. During that time, you're less invested in the active duty retirement, and you will likely be at your peak marketability coming out of the JAG Corps. For those who leave before 20, the Guard and Reserve can be fantastic options.

Thank you! I will find some time to go through the whole thread at some point

[mdk16]

3L headed active duty with AF JAG once I am hopefully done with the bar this Fall.

Happy to answer Qs or just talk about how lame the AF service dress is.

I would love more information on your background and what it is they look for in terms of GPA and experience.

[JerseyJag]

3L headed active duty with AF JAG once I am hopefully done with the bar this Fall.

Happy to answer Qs or just talk about how lame the AF service dress is.

I would love more information on your background and what it is they look for in terms of GPA and experience.

Friendly heads up that Bateman wrote that post over a decade ago now. Grab a beer and scour this thread. It's incredibly useful. I'm a current 3L picked up by AF and I put my package together exclusively with info from this thread. As stated above a 0L can definitely tailor their package to be highly competitive. Don't let the 10% figure dissuade you.

Me: 3.3 GPA, 163 LSAT, 3.6 uGPA, clinic, JAG externship, journal, moot court, not prior military.

[Patrick Bateman]

3L headed active duty with AF JAG once I am hopefully done with the bar this Fall.

Happy to answer Qs or just talk about how lame the AF service dress is.

I would love more information on your background and what it is they look for in terms of GPA and experience.

Once you work past the April 2008 post from me that you quoted, you will find the answer to your question (and quite a bit more). There is a lot of great information that has accumulated over the 11 years and 9 months this thread has been kicking.

[evilxs]

0L curious about JAG here.

How selective is JAG nowadays?

The real question is how bad do you want to be a JAG?

I applied in law school 2L and 3L year to multiple branches: Non-select (selection was still super tough at the time, no one had jobs)

I applied when I graduated: Non-select

JAG is my dream job. At the point you are not the selected candidate you need to ask yourself how you can do better. (I then proceeded to do that for 5 years)

I was selected in December, and I report to active duty March 8th.

Make yourself the candidate they need.

@Patrick - Thank you btw. I have followed this thread, and participated both anonymously and not, for 10 years. You've been a steady encouraging voice for many years. I appreciate you.

[Patrick Bateman]

0L curious about JAG here.

How selective is JAG nowadays?

The real question is how bad do you want to be a JAG?

I applied in law school 2L and 3L year to multiple branches: Non-select (selection was still super tough at the time, no one had jobs)

I applied when I graduated: Non-select

JAG is my dream job. At the point you are not the selected candidate you need to ask yourself how you can do better. (I then proceeded to do that for 5 years)

I was selected in December, and I report to active duty March 8th.

Make yourself the candidate they need.

@Patrick - Thank you btw. I have followed this thread, and participated both anonymously and not, for 10 years. You've been a steady encouraging voice for many years. I appreciate you.

Wow - congratulations! That shows some real grit. The JAGC is lucky to have you.

I'm always happy to see the next generation contributing to the thread. I hope you all keep it up!

[evilxs]

Holy. Shit.

I've worked in three different legal offices if you include the internship and I have never seen anything like that.

Thank God I snuck in under the wire a few years ago.

I've been following this thread through my 3 years of law school and I had read in here about a guy who had an interview like mine.
I knew it was possible, but definitely had a few moments of FML going through my head.

I want this so badly, but it is so much work to receive the letter that says eh try again. LOL

If I do this again, which I probably will - this is a dream of mine, I will try yet another AFB. If nothing else, I am persistent.

I said I was persistent (That post is from November 2012)

I finally wore down the Army.

My advice to those who have to reapply - go get litigation experience. I beefed up my application with a lot of litigation experience and just attacked every part of my package I thought might have a weakness.

[thriller1122]

Did anyone get feedback from the AF hotline? I did and it seemed pretty good. Have an altered plan of attack for the application that opens up in Feb.

Also, anyone planning on doing the Feb application for Navy? I talked to a JAG who said the Navy opened up a board for 3Ls. Figured I would throw my hat in the ring.

[Anonymous User]

Hey everyone - going into JAG as a junior biglaw associate.

Have taken a look at the previous posts about exit options, but was wondering about my specific circumstances.

Does 2 years of biglaw experience in regulatory compliance work plus lower T14 school help with exit options coming out of JAG at the 6-8 year mark? Just wondering if general counsel positions at large corporations or federal agencies would be possible.

[Patrick Bateman]

Hey everyone - going into JAG as a junior biglaw associate.

Have taken a look at the previous posts about exit options, but was wondering about my specific circumstances.

Does 2 years of biglaw experience in regulatory compliance work plus lower T14 school help with exit options coming out of JAG at the 6-8 year mark? Just wondering if general counsel positions at large corporations or federal agencies would be possible.

Best answer is going to be "maybe." All things absolutely equal, the two years of BigLaw may help to some degree. But that experience is going to age out over the 6-8 years. Way more important is how successful of a JAG you end up being and where you end up specializing. Having the T14 pedigree and BigLaw time may also appeal to the snobbier elements of DOJ and USAOs but I don't think will carry as much weight in OGCs.

I have no insight about going in-house with a corporation, but if you are a solid JAG (and can interview well enough), getting to a BigFed OGC is not really that hard overall. OGCs deal with a lot of varied issues that require jacks/jills of all trades - JAG generally produces exactly that. Some agencies and sections within their respective OGCs are going to be more prestigious than others, so your mileage may vary with where exactly you hope to land.

Good luck and congrats on making the leap out of BigLaw. I expect you will be much happier.

[Anonymous User]

For AD Army, did you guys receive the assignment worksheet today?

[Anonymous User]

Not yet. The previous email specified not only would they come today, but that we are required to have our list in by Monday...

[Anonymous User]

Not yet. The previous email specified not only would they come today, but that we are required to have our list in by Monday...

An email was sent saying CPT MacDonald was ill on Friday and should send out one today with new instructions but have not received one yet.

[Anonymous User]

Same. I don't think today will be the day either.

Hopefully tomorrow.

[Anonymous User]

Chinese-American here.

How worried should I be about the security clearance process? Not sure if I can provide a link here, but I read an article about Wei Su, an Army engineer who was under extensive investigation for his clearance but all allegations were eventually dropped due to OPM misstatements. Apparently, his ethnic background was a huge cause for concern for the DOD, and some security clearance attorneys are saying that there is almost a blanket ban on Chinese-Americans getting cleared at this point (especially with former gov't officials saying things like "people from China maintain close ties to the homeland that make them particularly vulnerable to recruiting as spies by Chinese intelligence; you’re American-born, but you’re Chinese at heart").

Always wanted to be a JAG, but is it worth taking the offer and rolling the dice with the security clearance? Basically...I don't want to quit my job just to find out I can't get cleared. Is this something I can ask my Officer Selection Officer about?

[thriller1122]

Chinese-American here.

How worried should I be about the security clearance process? Not sure if I can provide a link here, but I read an article about Wei Su, an Army engineer who was under extensive investigation for his clearance but all allegations were eventually dropped due to OPM misstatements. Apparently, his ethnic background was a huge cause for concern for the DOD, and some security clearance attorneys are saying that there is almost a blanket ban on Chinese-Americans getting cleared at this point (especially with former gov't officials saying things like "people from China maintain close ties to the homeland that make them particularly vulnerable to recruiting as spies by Chinese intelligence; you’re American-born, but you’re Chinese at heart").

Always wanted to be a JAG, but is it worth taking the offer and rolling the dice with the security clearance? Basically...I don't want to quit my job just to find out I can't get cleared. Is this something I can ask my Officer Selection Officer about?

You can ask about it, but the SSO and the people who make these decisions are really the only ones that can tell you what might happen. Anecdotaly, being Chinese is not a complete bar to any security clearance (I'm most familiar with TS/SCI). There are certain considerations that factor into the decision such as foreign contacts, which is made a lot worse by the fact that you are (I'm assuming) born in China or at least your family was. Obviously it depends on what part of China, what your family/friends/contacts do professionally or used to do.Basically, its complicated, but you can always apply and go through the process. There is no need to quit your job while doing it, so you can go through and if they say no, then they say no. Better to try and get turned down if its something you really want.

[kdial]

Current 3L here, I received an offer in December from the Army for AD Alternate list and Army Reserve spot. I accepted both (choosing to stay on the alternate list if an offer should come up and in the alternative, accepted the Reserve offer). I currently have two questions, 1) should I be doing anything on the Army front right now? I was just wondering if I need to be doing anything before I get to deep into bar study (July 2020). 2) Can anyone weigh in on what my chances are of being picked up off the alternate list? I really want to go AD, but I am trying to mentally prepare myself of the chances of that actually happening. Any and all input would be appreciated. Also, for those like me that continually searched this message board trying to decide if you even have a chance to compete with others applying, you do, keep trying.

[Anonymous User]

Chinese-American here.

How worried should I be about the security clearance process? Not sure if I can provide a link here, but I read an article about Wei Su, an Army engineer who was under extensive investigation for his clearance but all allegations were eventually dropped due to OPM misstatements. Apparently, his ethnic background was a huge cause for concern for the DOD, and some security clearance attorneys are saying that there is almost a blanket ban on Chinese-Americans getting cleared at this point (especially with former gov't officials saying things like "people from China maintain close ties to the homeland that make them particularly vulnerable to recruiting as spies by Chinese intelligence; you’re American-born, but you’re Chinese at heart").

Always wanted to be a JAG, but is it worth taking the offer and rolling the dice with the security clearance? Basically...I don't want to quit my job just to find out I can't get cleared. Is this something I can ask my Officer Selection Officer about?

You can ask about it, but the SSO and the people who make these decisions are really the only ones that can tell you what might happen. Anecdotaly, being Chinese is not a complete bar to any security clearance (I'm most familiar with TS/SCI). There are certain considerations that factor into the decision such as foreign contacts, which is made a lot worse by the fact that you are (I'm assuming) born in China or at least your family was. Obviously it depends on what part of China, what your family/friends/contacts do professionally or used to do.Basically, its complicated, but you can always apply and go through the process. There is no need to quit your job while doing it, so you can go through and if they say no, then they say no. Better to try and get turned down if its something you really want.

Thanks, though I think the process is that people attend OCS/ODS/DCC/OTS, and the security clearance investigation begins concurrently, with an interim clearance issued in the meantime. This is what is most concerning for me - the fact that I won't know if I am cleared or not until very late in the game. I'd be interested in seeing if anyone was able to obtain a full secret clearance, rather than an interim one, prior to training.