Military Law Forum

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howell

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Re: Military Law

Post by howell » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:00 am

Fluentlegalese wrote:Hi all! Talking to you as an undergraduate about to start her senior year. I’m in the process of applying to law school, and my dream is to be an Air Force JAG. This dream probably would have been easier to realize if I had done ROTC as an undergraduate, but I never really considered the military as an option for me. I’m assessing my options for JAG- from what I can tell, I have the options of doing
- the One-Year College Program (OYCP) which requires a one year AFROTC program and a six week field training course in summer before 3L
- The Graduate Law Program (GLP) which requires a two year AFROTC program and field training in summer before 2L or 3L
- Direct Appointment Program, which is the whole selection board process.
I could be wrong, but looking at the Air Force website, it looks as though a career as a JAG is guaranteed if one goes through the AFROTC route while the acceptance rate for Direct Appointment Program are quite low. However, I’m also hesitant about the ROTC programs. Most of the T-20 law schools where I’m looking don’t have an AFROTC program and rely on a distant crosstown program which, for the sake of time, I don’t want to have to do. I also read that the fitness requirements for the Direct Appointment Program are less intense (this could be wrong), and while I’m in good shape and meet the weight requirement, it would be nice to have an easier route. I also know that law school is extremely busy, and the prospect of doing ROTC simultaneously concerns me. I’d also like to be able to do internships during the summer, which I can’t do if I’m spending 6 weeks at field training during the summer.

I’m currently leaning most heavily towards OYCP but am still hesitant. Im trying to get an idea of my plan because it’s relevant to the places I’m applying for law school; for example, I’m taking into consideration distance to the crosstown AFROTC program and whatnot.

Would seriously appreciate any and all recommendations!
If your main goal is to be an Air Force JAG and everything else is a backup, I would do what Patrick said and apply to the programs starting your 1L year. If you get accepted to either GLP or OYCP, I would use that as a reason to scale back on the extra-curricular activities your 2L and/or 3L years. Classes after your 1L year shouldn't take up a tremendous amount of time, especially if you already have a job lined up. But you have a lot of time for things beyond classes your last two years. Many people do law review, moot court/mock trial, and other extra-curriculars all at the same time during those years.

The GLP and OYCP application processes are extremely similar to the DAP process, so they would be extremely helpful in preparing for that. You can get feedback after each application cycle, and you would also get time speaking with current JAGs. You can also avoid the question, "You say you've always wanted to do this, but you missed the first 4 application cycles you could have participated in during law school. How come?"

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:46 pm

Fluentlegalese wrote:Hi all! Talking to you as an undergraduate about to start her senior year. I’m in the process of applying to law school, and my dream is to be an Air Force JAG. This dream probably would have been easier to realize if I had done ROTC as an undergraduate, but I never really considered the military as an option for me. I’m assessing my options for JAG- from what I can tell, I have the options of doing
- the One-Year College Program (OYCP) which requires a one year AFROTC program and a six week field training course in summer before 3L
- The Graduate Law Program (GLP) which requires a two year AFROTC program and field training in summer before 2L or 3L
- Direct Appointment Program, which is the whole selection board process.
I could be wrong, but looking at the Air Force website, it looks as though a career as a JAG is guaranteed if one goes through the AFROTC route while the acceptance rate for Direct Appointment Program are quite low. However, I’m also hesitant about the ROTC programs. Most of the T-20 law schools where I’m looking don’t have an AFROTC program and rely on a distant crosstown program which, for the sake of time, I don’t want to have to do. I also read that the fitness requirements for the Direct Appointment Program are less intense (this could be wrong), and while I’m in good shape and meet the weight requirement, it would be nice to have an easier route. I also know that law school is extremely busy, and the prospect of doing ROTC simultaneously concerns me. I’d also like to be able to do internships during the summer, which I can’t do if I’m spending 6 weeks at field training during the summer.

I’m currently leaning most heavily towards OYCP but am still hesitant. Im trying to get an idea of my plan because it’s relevant to the places I’m applying for law school; for example, I’m taking into consideration distance to the crosstown AFROTC program and whatnot.

Would seriously appreciate any and all recommendations!
Excellent advice from howell and patrick as usual. I'll just add my 2 cents as a current GLP student (excuse my long response):

1. School selection is an important thing to consider when you know you want to do JAG.
1a. Pick the school that gives you the best nexus between value and quality of education. Maybe this is a duh, but if you want to do JAG don't get fooled by the allure of higher ranked schools simply for the ranking. Make sure you don't pay full price wherever you go. A lot of people from a lot of different schools get into the JAG Corps and school choice seems to matter much less to interviewers than experience and potential for good officership. Also ask the admissions folks to show you the school's course selection. Ask about trial advocacy programs, clinical opportunities for courtroom practice, and even classes or seminars on national security issues. These types of classes can help confirm your interest.
1b. The student loan repayment program isn't as good as you think it is. Don't go into tons of debt for law school and then resent yourself.

2. ROTC is only as time demanding as you make it.
2a. Field Training is only two weeks now! Don't worry though there'll still be cadets who think they're at the Marine Basic School.
2b. But yes, ROTC means your summers are going to be more complicated. Few firms will want to invest in you for summer internships when they know they can't have you there after graduation. So you have to hustle a little more in planning during the year how to make ends meet.
2c. Yes ROTC tells you you have to be at everything and you're a regular cadet blah blah blah...NO. You're a graduate student, and the cadre (ROTC Officers/Instructors) and cadet leadership will need to understand you're on a different path. They want you to succeed, and most Det Commanders seem to love having a law student in their student body, so be up front with them about what kinds of schedules you're dealing with and they'll work with you.
2d. Generally, you need to attend Physical Training, Leadership Lab, and your Air Force courses. That's it to graduate from the program. So all the extra stuff you can triage based on your schedule. My advice is be 100% locked on and participate at the required stuff, and use judgment for the rest.

3. There are perks:
3a. You get to go through law school knowing you've got one of the most fulfilling legal jobs in the world locked down if you can graduate, pass the bar, and not get kicked out of field training. You'll understand how precious that is 2L and 3L year when some of your classmates are anxious wrecks looking for jobs.
3b. You get a stipend as a contracted (enlisted) cadet. $450 your 2L year/month and $500 your 3L year/month. It helps.
3c. You have to workout! It's cool because everyone else in law school gets fat and you actually get in better shape!
3d. This may sound dorky, but I love getting to wear the uniform. Means a lot to me.
3e. No regrets here. One guy's opinion, but it's sincere.

Hope that helps.

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:20 am

AF April Direct Appointment selectee here - headed to COT at the end of July. Any tips/advice? Thanks!

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Re: Military Law

Post by shoppylaw » Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:46 pm

Hey all, I looked through the thread but couldn't find much on these topics. I'm hoping for some insight into the medical/application process and an op-ed idea.

I'm currently a rising 3L and an intern with the Army. I spent last summer externing with the AF. I plan on applying for both, but my preference is Army. However, I have some medical issues that might bar my entry into one branch(or both). Assuming that I am accepted to both, how should I go about balancing the risk of medical DQ per branch?

Specifically, what would look best to the AF? Should I apply to both branches this summer, decline the AF offer, and after being medically DQ'd from the Army, re-apply to the AF? Or should I only apply to the Army this cycle, go through the Army's medical DQ/appeal process, and only apply to the AF after I am firmly DQ'd by the Army? Or is there another option I'm not thinking about? I received strong letters of recommendation from the AF SJA, and I am not sure how each course of action will affect those LoR's. I will have to get a waiver for either branch.

Also, as a side question: I wrote a thesis this past year that calls for the military to get substantially more involved in the fight against climate change. I argue for a change in strategic military thinking at high levels of the government. I'm wanting to publish a version of this argument as an op-ed, but I don't want to label myself as an environmental-law guy or as critical of the military before I even join the JAG Corps. Any thoughts on how this publication could impact my application and (if accepted) my career as a JAG?

Thanks for all your help--so much good information in this thread!

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:48 am

Hey everyone, AD Navy JAG selectee here. How long has it taken people from notification they were selected until they actually commissioned? I have completed all the medical and background check stuff and was told I am just waiting on my scroll/ commission to be approved. I am curious how long that part of the process has taken for people because I am still hoping to go to ODS this calendar year...

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jul 09, 2019 12:40 pm

What type of medical issue are you looking at? I understand that the Army uses DODMERB for the physical while the other branches (including USAF) have their selectees go through MEPS. I am told that the DODMERB doctors are easier-going, but not sure if the waiver process is any easier with that route.

Have a question regarding Army JAG selection, in case anyone else knows. 1) After being selected and completing your DODMERB physical exam, is there a more thorough exam that occurs at/ prior to the direct commission course and JAG Officer Basic Course? 2) At what point do you receive your vaccines? Thanks.

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:08 am

Anonymous User wrote:Hey everyone, AD Navy JAG selectee here. How long has it taken people from notification they were selected until they actually commissioned? I have completed all the medical and background check stuff and was told I am just waiting on my scroll/ commission to be approved. I am curious how long that part of the process has taken for people because I am still hoping to go to ODS this calendar year...
I would double check with your recruiter and make sure they have everything and confirm they have uploaded everything to go to Navy Rec Comm. my personal experience required being absolutely direct with questioning and making sure everything was all set. Beyond that it could be anywhere from a week to a month more. They tend to send back names from scrolling in batches, so if you are at the beginning of a new batch it could be awhile (versus the end of an already full batch) if that makes sense.

I got lucky and only had to wait about 10 days. Also, don’t be afraid to check in with your recruiter. Not everyday, but an email or quick text once I week just to check status isn’t out of bounds as long as done respectfully. Good luck! The waiting is tough, but it’s part of the culture to get used to! Haha.

I look forward to serving with you in the Fleet!

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Re: Military Law

Post by Esquire » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Have a question regarding Army JAG selection, in case anyone else knows. 1) After being selected and completing your DODMERB physical exam, is there a more thorough exam that occurs at/ prior to the direct commission course and JAG Officer Basic Course? 2) At what point do you receive your vaccines? Thanks.
There's more medical exams but they are not as thorough as the DODMERB one. In fact, I can't think of anything in my career that was as... intimate as that one. You get your vaccines after commissioning, sometime within the first week or two.

Caveat: My data may be old but I suspect it's still accurate.

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Re: Military Law

Post by GM1532 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:28 pm

Hello all,

Quick question about references for the AF JAG DAP application (I'm still working on getting through the 350+ pages of the thread :D ) . My first job out of law school was in Big Law, and when I emailed a few of the partners I worked with to see if one or more might act as a reference, I was told that though they'd be happy to, firm policy prevents individual attorneys from writing reference letters. At first I thought they were just BS'ing and didn't want to write a letter or be a reference at all, but one of them mentioned that the policy was in the firm's handbook and a friend of mine who is still at the firm checked this for me. The handbook does indeed say that the only option is to get a reference from HR.

Has anyone else ran into this issue? Any thoughts on how to proceed?

Thanks in advance!

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:00 pm

Background: Army JAG, commissioned within last 4yrs

Shoppy:

-Ride out both offers as far as possible if you're worried about the medical DQ. You do not owe anything until you commission.
-I have not seen an negative to applying to multiple branches. Shows your interest in jag broadly. Most Army Interns get offers.
-No one cares about the thesis. Rather, I don't see how it would hurt you. Gives you something to talk about. JAs can have opinions. I suppose if you continue to publish pieces critical to the military while in the military, that could hurt your career. Your classmates could find it at OBC and might pull your leg on it.

Other anon for Army medical questions:

-Our pre commissioning physicals and DCC physicals were a joke. Not invasive at all. No duck walk. They'll figure out if your hiding something major though, so I do not recommend it.
-Vaccines are administered at DCC. Additional ones given at your gaining unit's discretion per it's specific mission.

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Background: Army JAG, commissioned within last 4yrs

Other anon for Army medical questions:

-Our pre commissioning physicals and DCC physicals were a joke. Not invasive at all. No duck walk. They'll figure out if your hiding something major though, so I do not recommend it.
-Vaccines are administered at DCC. Additional ones given at your gaining unit's discretion per it's specific mission.
Do you know what they do if you already had all those vaccines recently? I went to Marine OCS and had all the vaccines one can imagine. I did not get their records. I want to avoid repeats if possible...

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:28 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Background: Army JAG, commissioned within last 4yrs

Other anon for Army medical questions:

-Our pre commissioning physicals and DCC physicals were a joke. Not invasive at all. No duck walk. They'll figure out if your hiding something major though, so I do not recommend it.
-Vaccines are administered at DCC. Additional ones given at your gaining unit's discretion per it's specific mission.
Do you know what they do if you already had all those vaccines recently? I went to Marine OCS and had all the vaccines one can imagine. I did not get their records. I want to avoid repeats if possible...
Background: Army JAG, commissioned within last 4yrs

You'll probably get them again. It's just easier. I know people, myself included, who received certain shots (from the Army) and received them again (from the Army). Just because. And my records still do not reflect the shot so I'm sure I'll get it a third time.

Bring any records possible if you find them. Certain vaccines may be harmful if repeated? (no idea, not a doctor) Hopefully someone has access to your Marine vaccine records.

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:35 pm

I'm the poster who asked about the vaccines and medical exam.

I appreciate the responses. I hadn't been able to find those answers anywhere else.

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:06 pm

Just FYI,

NAVY JAG has rescinded their offers to Direct Appointment waitlisted selectees / alternates due to "budget cuts" and lack of slots. They also have too many people who accepted primary selection offers (more acceptances than available slots), so I am unsure what they will do about that... Moreover, they warn that next year they will have hardly any slots available either.

Maybe consider applying to other branches as well if you are considering Navy JAG as a licensed lawyer...

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:41 pm

Hi, I am an Air Force JAG select and I am taking the California bar. Is it accurate to think that because the California bar results come out so late that I am more likely to be sent to April training instead of January training?

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:17 pm

Hey everyone,

Long term lurker, first time poster, current law student very interested in JAG (any branch--already completed an internship with AF, loved the work). I was wondering if anyone has a feeling for whether leadership/ volunteer positions in LGBT organizations (Bar Ass'c, Law Student Org, etc) would negatively or positively impact an applicant's chances?

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Re: Military Law

Post by Patrick Bateman » Sat Jul 27, 2019 1:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hey everyone,

Long term lurker, first time poster, current law student very interested in JAG (any branch--already completed an internship with AF, loved the work). I was wondering if anyone has a feeling for whether leadership/ volunteer positions in LGBT organizations (Bar Ass'c, Law Student Org, etc) would negatively or positively impact an applicant's chances?
I understand why you are asking the question but ultimately I would not consider it different than leadership in any other student org. If that is something you are involved in and passionate about, I view that is a good thing.

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howell

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Re: Military Law

Post by howell » Sun Jul 28, 2019 1:39 pm

Patrick Bateman wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Hey everyone,

Long term lurker, first time poster, current law student very interested in JAG (any branch--already completed an internship with AF, loved the work). I was wondering if anyone has a feeling for whether leadership/ volunteer positions in LGBT organizations (Bar Ass'c, Law Student Org, etc) would negatively or positively impact an applicant's chances?
I understand why you are asking the question but ultimately I would not consider it different than leadership in any other student org. If that is something you are involved in and passionate about, I view that is a good thing.
Agreed.

We send JAG recruiters to Lavender Law events. Big Air Force will have zero problem with it, and it will probably be viewed favorably.

The only possible risk would be with your interviewing SJA. With the vast majority, it would be a very slight positive or a non-event. There are still a few dinosaurs around who might not consider it appropriately, but I think that would be pretty rare. One runs that minor risk with many parts of their background, however.

Depending on how much the T in LGBT applies to you specifically, that could obviously create challenges, considering the current rules and administration.

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Re: Military Law

Post by Patrick Bateman » Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:21 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Hi, I am an Air Force JAG select and I am taking the California bar. Is it accurate to think that because the California bar results come out so late that I am more likely to be sent to April training instead of January training?
I feel like enough has changed with initial reporting, training, and JASOC that my gut is no longer reliable for timeline questions. I'm sure one of the folks on this thread that is still on AD or recently went through the process can give you their insight.

If we go back to when I went through a lifetime ago, a late reporting bar state like California or New York would mean a later training start date. There is so much paperwork that cannot get moving until you passed the bar that is just becomes logistically impossible.

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:57 pm

Poster RE: LGBT Orgs on the resume.

Thanks guys, that's a relief to hear (I'm personally on the non-T side, just got worried with the current events that the group was being hit with an unofficial DADT). Anyway, this thread is a fantastic resource, keep it up.

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Re: Military Law

Post by bvsimon3 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:14 pm

Hi guys!! these threads have been so helpful!! I just submitted my AF application for the September board!!! Hope I'm selected!!!!

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:39 pm

I am a recent law school graduate/army reserve select, scheduled to attend training in early 2020. I am also set to start a job at a law firm this fall. This means I will only be at the firm for a few months before I have to leave for training. I have not yet told the firm about my situation. Does anyone have any experience/advice for how to broach this subject with the firm? (I can't really afford not to work before training starts.) I appreciate any insight.

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Re: Military Law

Post by SuperSpartan88 » Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:04 pm

Will having my CPA license/masters in Accounting help at all? Also how much will prior service help? I have been in the Army National Guard for 5 years (3 as an officer) with 2 good OER's. My law school grades were fairly weak (just below a 3.0) and not many extracurricular activities. Do I stand any realistic possibility of being picked up by AF/Navy/Army and if so can I start immediately as an O-3 rather than 2?

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:54 am

SuperSpartan88 wrote:Will having my CPA license/masters in Accounting help at all? Also how much will prior service help? I have been in the Army National Guard for 5 years (3 as an officer) with 2 good OER's. My law school grades were fairly weak (just below a 3.0) and not many extracurricular activities. Do I stand any realistic possibility of being picked up by AF/Navy/Army and if so can I start immediately as an O-3 rather than 2?
CPA probably does not matter much if at all. Prior service definitely will help.
If you are already an O3 in the USARNG then you would likely be able to start as an O3 in the Army (cannot speak for other services). If you are still an O2, then you will likely stay an O2 and promote to O3 at the same time as the new LTs.

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Re: Military Law

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I am a recent law school graduate/army reserve select, scheduled to attend training in early 2020. I am also set to start a job at a law firm this fall. This means I will only be at the firm for a few months before I have to leave for training. I have not yet told the firm about my situation. Does anyone have any experience/advice for how to broach this subject with the firm? (I can't really afford not to work before training starts.) I appreciate any insight.
Question: When were you notified what jaobc class you are assigned to in 2020?
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