Military Law Forum

[eodops]

With regard to the letters of recommendation (specifically for the AF GLP), would it be appropriate to have one from an undergraduate professor considering I'd only be 1/2 way through my 1L year?

You can have up to five letters, so if you have an undergrad professor that can write you a good letter, I would do it. I had a letter from an undergrad professor in my package. (He was a former Army JAG Colonel, so that factored into my decision somewhat.)

[crallen]

I know quite a few Air Force JAGs who were ROTC as undergraduates and used the educational delay program to knock out their JD.

I know different branch, could be different practices, but how was their time counted after law school? And how about yours as a DA? I'm asking because I am wondering if the only benefit from doing ROTC as an undergrad is the tuition money... That is, if DA and ROTC commissions are both on the same "time in service" level, which is basically what I am asking I guess.

[Patrick Bateman]

I know quite a few Air Force JAGs who were ROTC as undergraduates and used the educational delay program to knock out their JD.

I know different branch, could be different practices, but how was their time counted after law school? And how about yours as a DA? I'm asking because I am wondering if the only benefit from doing ROTC as an undergrad is the tuition money... That is, if DA and ROTC commissions are both on the same "time in service" level, which is basically what I am asking I guess.

*Previous answer edited due to being wayyyyyy off. Thanks for the save Rotor.*

Direct Appointment TIS really depends on what we are looking at. For pay purposes, it is the day I took my Oath of Office. For promotion, it is based on the day I left for OTS.

One of the unsung benefits of ROTC is that you get a better education in terms of officership. I firmly believe (*disclaimer: personal view and in no way representative of USAF views*) that the Air Force does JAGs a major disservice by sending us to COT instead of full out BOT. There is a good reason behind this decision but I still think it leads to your average JAG being a rather average officer.

[Rotor]

I'm pretty sure on this answer, but I may be wrong, so take it with a grain of salt. I believe ROTC/Service Academy time counts towards retirement but not time in service for pay calculations. In other words, 4 years of ROTC + Ed Day = 0 years in service for pay but when you hit 21 years in service, you get to retire as through it were 25. Ya dig? It does not work with 16 counting as 20 however.

We should have an Academy or ROTC grad out lurking out there, please correct me if I am off.

PB-- I'm disappointed. This is the first time I think I've ever seen you miss the mark.

Academy time starts on commissioning day. No credit for time served for those four years (except perhaps some rare prior-enlisted situations). For NROTC (not sure of other branches), Spring graduates in May/June get the academy graduation date for their date of rank (so they all start on equal footing as Ensigns), but their creditable service clock for retirement calculations, pay-back, etc. starts ticking on commissioning day.

A little bit of history. (Caution, may be urban legend, but it's what I was told at retirement TAP.) The 21-->25 jump went away decades ago when the retirement scheme went from High Pay to High-3 as the base. (Couldn't just move right a couple of columns on the pay table any more...)

[brownshoe]

One of the unsung benefits of ROTC is that you get a better education in terms of officership. I firmly believe (*disclaimer: personal view and in no way representative of USAF views*) that the Air Force does JAGs a major disservice by sending us to COT instead of full out BOT. There is a good reason behind this decision but I still think it leads to your average JAG being a rather average officer.

Speaking for the Navy - I also believe all our staff officers (I know you're line in the AF) should go to OCS (your version of BOT). Interesting point about ROTC. In the Navy, ROTC grads do not go to OCS. Having taught NROTC, I came away with the firm belief that they should.

[BigFatPanda]

Did anyone here applied to Army 1L Summer Internship? what qualities are they looking for in 1L students? Considering the fact that those applied only have 1 semester of grades and not much in term of moot court/litigation related extracurriculars. Any advice would be appreciated.

[Altanis]

I would also broaden previous poster's questions to any suggestions for the interview or personal statement requirement for the 1L internship.

To P. Bateman and others with some experience in the process -- is it recommended to be perfectly upfront and admit that part of my goal in applying for the 1L Army internship is to see if JAG Corps is a good fit for me after graduation, or should we just sell ourselves as wholly committed to the idea already?

[jag2L]

Any one else out there get the Army 2L internship? I'm still trying to decide which base I want to go to for the summer, so if there are any former interns or current JAGs who've been stationed outside the continental United States (specifically, Camp Zama, Fort Shafter/Schofield Barracks, or anywhere in Germany), I'd love to speak with you.

As a side note: I had the 1L internship last summer and spent 9 weeks at Fort Riley, Kansas. If anyone has specific questions about the internship experience, the application process, or Fort Riley in particular, by all means ask away.

Bigfatpanda: You're right, there's not much for the board to go off besides your first semester grades when considering your application. I think that the board wants to see that you really want to do JAG for the right reasons, not just as a paying summer job or as a backup. What's your motivation for serving your country? Do you have prior military service? Why did you choose to apply to the JAG internship, and if you're accepted, why would you do it over the other options you have?

Participating in mock trial during 1L is always helpful. I think another factor (unfortunately, one you have no control over) is geographic diversity. As one Field Screening Officer put it to me, "We're the US Army, not the California Army or New York Army." If you go to law school in a small state, or are from a small state, I think that would increase your chances. Take a look at the "accepted interns" list on JAG Cnet, and you'll find that people come from all over the country.

EDIT. Sorry, I missed the last poster's question. You don't have to go into the interview with a gung ho attitude and a 100% commitment to JAG. I don't think anyone would expect you to know what you want to do with your career after one semester. The point of the internship, in the first place, is to let you experience Army JAG for yourself. If you think JAG is for you, but you're not entirely sure because you haven't been exposed to it yet, you should be honest about that.

All of that being said, there are probably reasons why you suspect JAG might be a good fit for you, so play up those reasons in the interview.

[FeuerFrei]

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[BigFatPanda]

\
Bigfatpanda: You're right, there's not much for the board to go off besides your first semester grades when considering your application. I think that the board wants to see that you really want to do JAG for the right reasons, not just as a paying summer job or as a backup. What's your motivation for serving your country? Do you have prior military service? Why did you choose to apply to the JAG internship, and if you're accepted, why would you do it over the other options you have?

Thank you for responding.

For me, i believed that being a citizen is a privilege that had to be earn and once earned, there are significant responsibilities: that is, we all need to do our parts to contribute to the integrity of society and serve to the benefit of our community in whatever way possible. Thus, as a naturalized citizen, i felt it is my duty to serve and to prove to this country that i deserve the privileges of citizenship. In fact, an opportunity to serve in the JAG constitutes a critical if not the sole reason for me to go to law school. I would not hesitate for one second to resign my current position as well as any other opportunities if JAG offers me a commission.

Further, what sort of questions were asked when you interviewed? Do you mind sharing your motivation? And what was your internship like? What sort of work did u do? Do u feel limited in what u can do because you have only one year of law school instructions? What is your daily routine like?

Thank you for any advice.

[BigFatPanda]

When applying to the Army 1L internship, would it be a good or bad idea to write in the personal statement that I want to do Air Force JAG and want to get hands on military experience. Should I just say JAG and not specify a branch?

Fellow scarlet knight?

[jag2L]

When applying to the Army 1L internship, would it be a good or bad idea to write in the personal statement that I want to do Air Force JAG and want to get hands on military experience. Should I just say JAG and not specify a branch?

I can't say one way or the other from personal experience, but I've heard that the different branches want you to show commitment to the branch you're applying to. In other words, you don't just want to be a JAG, you want to be an Army JAG.

[Patrick Bateman]

Any one else out there get the Army 2L internship? I'm still trying to decide which base I want to go to for the summer, so if there are any former interns or current JAGs who've been stationed outside the continental United States (specifically, Camp Zama, Fort Shafter/Schofield Barracks, or anywhere in Germany), I'd love to speak with you.

As a side note: I had the 1L internship last summer and spent 9 weeks at Fort Riley, Kansas. If anyone has specific questions about the internship experience, the application process, or Fort Riley in particular, by all means ask away.

Bigfatpanda: You're right, there's not much for the board to go off besides your first semester grades when considering your application. I think that the board wants to see that you really want to do JAG for the right reasons, not just as a paying summer job or as a backup. What's your motivation for serving your country? Do you have prior military service? Why did you choose to apply to the JAG internship, and if you're accepted, why would you do it over the other options you have?

Participating in mock trial during 1L is always helpful. I think another factor (unfortunately, one you have no control over) is geographic diversity. As one Field Screening Officer put it to me, "We're the US Army, not the California Army or New York Army." If you go to law school in a small state, or are from a small state, I think that would increase your chances. Take a look at the "accepted interns" list on JAG Cnet, and you'll find that people come from all over the country.

EDIT. Sorry, I missed the last poster's question. You don't have to go into the interview with a gung ho attitude and a 100% commitment to JAG. I don't think anyone would expect you to know what you want to do with your career after one semester. And the point of the internship, in the first place, is to let you see what life is like for a JAG officer. That being said, there are probably reasons why you suspect JAG might be a good fit for you, so play up those reasons in the interview.

When applying to the Army 1L internship, would it be a good or bad idea to write in the personal statement that I want to do Air Force JAG and want to get hands on military experience. Should I just say JAG and not specify a branch?

While we are all purple and joint and in the fight together, there is often no love lost between Army and Air Force. I would not go into an Army interview saying you just want a jumping off point into the USAF. There is nothing wrong saying you are in it to learn more about what the Army is about, but I would sell Army as your preferred service branch.

I also think it might be redundant to mention you are leaning Air Force. Everyone would rather be in the Air Force.

[jag2L]

Thank you for responding.

For me, i believed that being a citizen is a privilege that had to be earn and once earned, there are significant responsibilities: that is, we all need to do our parts to contribute to the integrity of society and serve to the benefit of our community in whatever way possible. Thus, as a naturalized citizen, i felt it is my duty to serve and to prove to this country that i deserve the privileges of citizenship. In fact, an opportunity to serve in the JAG constitutes a critical if not the sole reason for me to go to law school. I would not hesitate for one second to resign my current position as well as any other opportunities if JAG offers me a commission.

Further, what sort of questions were asked when you interviewed? Do you mind sharing your motivation? And what was your internship like? What sort of work did u do? Do u feel limited in what u can do because you have only one year of law school instructions? What is your daily routine like?

Thank you for any advice.

You're welcome I'm also a naturalized citizen, and that was one of my primary motivations for applying.

You get asked pretty basic questions during the interview: Why do you want to do this? Why the Army? Have you experienced an ethical dilemma and how was that resolved? Tell me something that's not on your resume, etc. I remember speaking about martial arts for a while, and how doing martial arts improved my life.

The internship was fantastic. I worked with three other interns, as well as two FLEPs (Funded Legal Education Program--basically, Army officers who are being paid to go to law school), and we all became pretty close as the summer went on. The work was 40 hours a week, 9-5, with an hour and a half for lunch. The Deputy Judge Advocate (LTC) did a pretty good job of letting us rotate between different departments, which are Trial Counsel, Trial Defense, Administrative Law, Operational Law, Claims, Legal Assistance, and the Magistrate Court. You won't get to do all of these, and you certainly won't be able to do both Trial Counsel and Trial Defense. Even though I was only assigned to rotate through three of those departments, when there wasn't much work (i.e. the one JAG who runs the Mag Court went on leave for two weeks), I was able to go to other departments and find something to do.

The JAGs on base were really nice to us. They joked with us, they took us to lunch sometimes, and they would hang out with us outside work. For instance, one of the JAGs was a competitive shooter and took me to a shooting range one weekend. Another JAG trained in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, so he rolled with me and taught me some new techniques. In any case, you will definitely be assigned a sponsor who will help you find housing, tell you about the area, and make sure that your internship goes smoothly.

My routine varied based on which department I was working in, but for the most part, I went to my workspace in the morning and solicited work from the JAGs. If there was a court martial that day, I would usually go and watch. The days were sometimes broken up with social events (cake for someone's birthday, etc.) or ceremonies on base (e.g., a parade for the Army's birthday in June). Toward the end of the internship, we had some sort of spirit week that involved a lot of runs and competitive events.

As a 1L, I didn't really feel limited in the work that I could do. By the end of your 1L year, you should be able to write professional memos, client letters, and persuasive briefs. Because my work was mainly research based (e.g., "I need some caselaw on what 'shirking hazardous duty' means because I'm thinking of charging this guy for desertion"), I mostly wrote memos. The only area I was unsure about was Evidence, because I hadn't taken it yet, but my experience in mock trial helped me follow along with the different evidentiary issues that came up during courts martial.

One last thing: a lot of the stuff over the summer is "optional" but I would highly recommend participating at least a bit, especially if you want to really experience the military lifestyle. For example, morning PT was optional, but I tried to go twice a week to see what it was like to wake up at 5:30am and exercise. Likewise, if there's a softball league, join it and drink beer with the JAGs afterward.

I hope that helps!

[Patrick Bateman]

I would also broaden previous poster's questions to any suggestions for the interview or personal statement requirement for the 1L internship.

To P. Bateman and others with some experience in the process -- is it recommended to be perfectly upfront and admit that part of my goal in applying for the 1L Army internship is to see if JAG Corps is a good fit for me after graduation, or should we just sell ourselves as wholly committed to the idea already?

Split the middle on this one.

I do not think it is at all necessary to sell yourself as 100% committed and a future TJAG. This is, after all, a civilian internship. I know my office takes our interns very seriously in terms of exposing them to as much as possible in order to facilitate their determination if the JAG Corps is for them. We know our interns are interested in serving but also do not know exactly what the day-to-day of an Air Force JAG is like.

At the same time, the last thing the Army wants to do is burn an internship slot on someone who has no intention of joining on. Internships are very useful for JACR/JAX in identifying promising students who should be cultivated for the real deal.


There is no harm in admitting you are going into the internship to learn more about what the JAG Corps entails. That said, do not sound like a waffler. Sound like someone who is 85% sure and just needs to tip your toe in the bracing waters of officership.

[Altanis]

Thanks for the quick response.

From my end, my feeling is that I've thought about going JAG for a long time and this internship is the final confirmation I'm looking for. Hopefully, being completely honest about wanting to make sure the work is appealing, the environment a good fit, etc will work for me in the interview.

[FeuerFrei]

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[GatorStudent]

A quick question for all of you, since all of you seem so knowledgeable: the Navy JAG application requires a minimum of three letters of recommendation, but it doesn't state what type of LOR. I have two people who would be great professional references, and one who would be a fantastic personal reference. Is this fine?

[Patrick Bateman]

I would also broaden previous poster's questions to any suggestions for the interview or personal statement requirement for the 1L internship.

To P. Bateman and others with some experience in the process -- is it recommended to be perfectly upfront and admit that part of my goal in applying for the 1L Army internship is to see if JAG Corps is a good fit for me after graduation, or should we just sell ourselves as wholly committed to the idea already?

Split the middle on this one.

I do not think it is at all necessary to sell yourself as 100% committed and a future TJAG. This is, after all, a civilian internship. I know my office takes our interns very seriously in terms of exposing them to as much as possible in order to facilitate their determination if the JAG Corps is for them. We know our interns are interested in serving but also do not know exactly what the day-to-day of an Air Force JAG is like.

At the same time, the last thing the Army wants to do is burn an internship slot on someone who has no intention of joining on. Internships are very useful for JACR/JAX in identifying promising students who should be cultivated for the real deal.


There is no harm in admitting you are going into the internship to learn more about what the JAG Corps entails. That said, do not sound like a waffler. Sound like someone who is 85% sure and just needs to tip your toe in the bracing waters of officership.

So say theoretically I get picked up for the AF GLP, would I have virtually no chance at the Army 1L internship since I'm essentially already committed to the AF?

Well, you are a AFROTC cadet when you are in GLP, so I have to think you may not be eligible, but I guess it could be possible. I could see you selling the AF on this but I doubt the Army would burn a slot on you.

[Patrick Bateman]

A quick question for all of you, since all of you seem so knowledgeable: the Navy JAG application requires a minimum of three letters of recommendation, but it doesn't state what type of LOR. I have two people who would be great professional references, and one who would be a fantastic personal reference. Is this fine?

I'm not ever sure about personal references - not for law schools, not for JAG. I doubt I got my commission due to my winning personality and sense of humor. If I were the SJA, I would want to know how you handle yourself in professional settings.

This may be an AF thing, but I have heard several higher ups recommend getting the max amount of letters (five in our case). For most of us, not all five of the letters are going to be drop your pants amazing (I had one that was outstanding, two great, three solid) but I guess they like to see applicants going for broke.

[eodops]

max amount of letters (five in our case)(I had one that was outstanding, two great, three solid)

5≠1+2+3

[Patrick Bateman]

max amount of letters (five in our case)(I had one that was outstanding, two great, three solid)

5≠1+2+3

Sonofabitch.

<puts Hendricks & Tonic down>

[People's Eyebrow]

Does anyone know how long the 1L JAG internship lasts? Moreover, is the Army the only one that has a paid internship?

[nycparalegal]

If I can get into the Marine's PLC Law program, after I graduate from law school will I be payed and ranked as a captain? How portable is military law experience?

[Patrick Bateman]

Does anyone know how long the 1L JAG internship lasts? Moreover, is the Army the only one that has a paid internship?

http://www.goarmy.com/jag/summer_intern_program.jsp

Army: Paid 1L/2L Internship.
USAF: Paid 2L Internship.
USN: All unpaid.
USMC: Who knows. I assume they punch you in the stomach as you do pull-ups for a 10 week period.