Military Law Forum

[shintopig]

Rising 3L at a t14-- median or around there, non-URM Hispanic. Resume full of public service and prosecution internships. Do I even have a shot at any JAG positions?

Also: my career office is awful when it comes to this stuff--- when do apps typically open, and what are the next steps I need to take?

Thank you all so much.

Read before posting.

Just 1 page back:

1.) No on can tell you your "odds." It's impossible to know. They use a "whole person" concept in these services to look at everything in an application. But every applicant and every board is unique. People get rejected 3x and get accepted on the 4th. People (such as me) get rejected multiple times from one service & get it on the 1st time for another service. People from T14 with LR & Moot get rejected but others from T4 get accepted. People outside the top LSAT-percentiles or quartiles of their graduating class make it. And plenty make it on their first try.

I still don't quite get what black magic goes into figuring out acceptees. There are some basic numerical formulas that I know the USN uses (using LSAT, GPA, & Interview score if I remember correctly). But mere stats are just one part. Best way to know is to just apply.

2.) That being said some basic things help. Good grades. Good schools. Work Experience. Leadership. Physical Fitness. A great interview. LORs & Motivational Essay. Public Service & Volunteering. Military history. You get the point.

3.) I know this sounds awful. But comb through this thread; it's been up & active for years. There's books-worth of information, just browse through and you'll have plenty of questions answered. I did it. It's better than you asking simple stuff that might've been asked just a few pages back.

4.) Check out the websites for all the services. They all have their own application procedures & nuances. Eg. the Army has one board-per year. The Marines have you take a PRT test with your app. The Coast Guard doesn't really do deployments (in the formal sense). The Navy JAGs don't do contracting. The Air Force . . . well, the Air Force is just down right picky.

5.) Check out if your law school (if you're still close by) or a close-by law school has visits or panels by current JAG Officers. They just did one with all 5 JAGCs at my law school this past April & it was open to the public. That's a good way to get a sense & ask questions.

[Anonymous User]

Have you ever experimented with, used, or possessed any illegal drug or narcotic?

What are they really looking for here? I know Honesty is the Best Policy, but is this one of those times you might not want to disclose? Has anyone here disclosed drug use and gotten PR'd?

[w7ldcard]

When going into Jag you are only going to really know you have the position when you get your PR and then complete MEPS which wouldnt happen until May of your 3l year? So if you 2l summer with a firm and get an offer that would technically be a safer option for after 3l employment?

[S. Goodman]

When going into Jag you are only going to really know you have the position when you get your PR and then complete MEPS which wouldnt happen until May of your 3l year? So if you 2l summer with a firm and get an offer that would technically be a safer option for after 3l employment?

Depending on the branch, e.g. You can apply to the Navy as. 2L and sign your employment contract shortly thereafter, after you go to MEPS.

[w7ldcard]

When going into Jag you are only going to really know you have the position when you get your PR and then complete MEPS which wouldnt happen until May of your 3l year? So if you 2l summer with a firm and get an offer that would technically be a safer option for after 3l employment?

Depending on the branch, e.g. You can apply to the Navy as. 2L and sign your employment contract shortly thereafter, after you go to MEPS.

Was your timeline for your 2l summer?

[S. Goodman]

When going into Jag you are only going to really know you have the position when you get your PR and then complete MEPS which wouldnt happen until May of your 3l year? So if you 2l summer with a firm and get an offer that would technically be a safer option for after 3l employment?

Depending on the branch, e.g. You can apply to the Navy as. 2L and sign your employment contract shortly thereafter, after you go to MEPS.

Was your timeline for your 2l summer?

Yes. See the navy jag thread in the forum for law students for specific timelines.

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone feel looked down upon by your fellow law students for wanting, or having, a Jag job? Like maybe that you're wasting your JD on the military? Do you all think this may be more prominent at better law schools? Like T50 or T25?

All in Jag pays like 85k plus starting out after all the benefits, but maybe people don't know this, or just have deeply ingrained prejudice against the military?

Opinions? Experiences?

[los blancos]

Does anyone feel looked down upon by your fellow law students for wanting, or having, a Jag job? Like maybe that you're wasting your JD on the military? Do you all think this may be more prominent at better law schools? Like T50 or T25?

All in Jag pays like 85k plus starting out after all the benefits, but maybe people don't know this, or just have deeply ingrained prejudice against the military?

Opinions? Experiences?

Who cares?

[Jules07]

Does anyone feel looked down upon by your fellow law students for wanting, or having, a Jag job? Like maybe that you're wasting your JD on the military? Do you all think this may be more prominent at better law schools? Like T50 or T25?

All in Jag pays like 85k plus starting out after all the benefits, but maybe people don't know this, or just have deeply ingrained prejudice against the military?

Opinions? Experiences?

My peers are all just jealous that I've had a job on lock since 1L year. I've gotten sincere congratulations from even my most liberal classmates for being selected to such a selective program (AF GLP).

[Patrick Bateman]

Does anyone feel looked down upon by your fellow law students for wanting, or having, a Jag job? Like maybe that you're wasting your JD on the military? Do you all think this may be more prominent at better law schools? Like T50 or T25?

All in Jag pays like 85k plus starting out after all the benefits, but maybe people don't know this, or just have deeply ingrained prejudice against the military?

Opinions? Experiences?

To paraphrase the great Detective Rust Cohle, if the only thing driving a person's career path is the worry if other people deem their job sufficiently prestigious, then brother, that person is a piece of shit.

The previous "who cares?" response is absolutely the correct one.

[shintopig]

Does anyone feel looked down upon by your fellow law students for wanting, or having, a Jag job? Like maybe that you're wasting your JD on the military? Do you all think this may be more prominent at better law schools? Like T50 or T25?

All in Jag pays like 85k plus starting out after all the benefits, but maybe people don't know this, or just have deeply ingrained prejudice against the military?

Opinions? Experiences?

Who cares?

^bump

[S. Goodman]

Does anyone feel looked down upon by your fellow law students for wanting, or having, a Jag job? Like maybe that you're wasting your JD on the military? Do you all think this may be more prominent at better law schools? Like T50 or T25?

All in Jag pays like 85k plus starting out after all the benefits, but maybe people don't know this, or just have deeply ingrained prejudice against the military?

Opinions? Experiences?

I haven't started back to school yet so I couldn't say from personal experience how my peers will react. As far as pay is concerned Jag is well above average, that 85k is a little conservative because you also have to factor in public service loan forgiveness if you stay in 10 years. Then you have to add your base pay, BAH, BAS, and free health/dental for you and your family. Definitely better than the majority of jobs law students get!

With that being said I anticipate jealously from my peers! And also echo the who cares from other posters!

[howell]

Does anyone feel looked down upon by your fellow law students for wanting, or having, a Jag job? Like maybe that you're wasting your JD on the military? Do you all think this may be more prominent at better law schools? Like T50 or T25?

All in Jag pays like 85k plus starting out after all the benefits, but maybe people don't know this, or just have deeply ingrained prejudice against the military?

Opinions? Experiences?

There are some reasons to ask this questions. One could ask these question to make sure she's not missing something about JAG that other people know or to find out if what other people think about the job might affect future job prospects.

The looking down on you're talking about will typically be at schools where students have a very good chance of getting a good job (or even a job at all). Currently, with how bad employment statistics have been, no one at a school below the T14-25 range really has the ability to look down on 4+ semi-guaranteed years of work making ~$100k/year that has the chance of building some transferable skills.

Reasons for looking down on it relate to the different selection process, the lack of knowledge of what JAGs do, and the previous perceived lack of selectivity. For most legal jobs, you give your school and class rank and then you find out whether you're hired. You might have an interview or have to get a recommendation from a prof, but school and rank is a clear dividing line. You don't have that with JAG. The services hire from all schools, and while better grades generally help, people at the bottom of the class can get selected, even in these more selective times. The selection process is about the "whole person," and the services are hiring skills that aren't fostered in legal school nor typical of your stereotypical law student.

A lot of people don't know what JAGs can do, so that can affect the perception of the job's status. People might think we don't do legal work, we do a ton of trial work, we don't build skills that transfer to law firms, we do "administrative" stuff, etc., and they'd all be right for different JAGs. Our paths are different from other legal jobs and sometimes very different from other JAGs within the same service. So saying you're going to be a JAG might not give a lot of people a good idea of what you're doing.

In years/decades past, the selection rate was higher. More senior officers often remark that they don't know if they could have gotten in under today's standards. I'm not sure whether that's true, but this affects what people think of the job. If the job was easier to get 15 years ago, and a lot of people would do it because they couldn't get the "prestigious" jobs, then that reputation might stick.

As the others have said, it's nothing to worry about. Generally, people will have no idea what you do. You will have to advocate for yourself if you want to transfer skills learned while a JAG to get you other jobs (and I don't think that will be too difficult, certainly depending on the job).

As far as pay is concerned Jag is well above average, that 85k is a little conservative because you also have to factor in public service loan forgiveness if you stay in 10 years. Then you have to add your base pay, BAH, BAS, and free health/dental for you and your family.

Yes, this is often overlooked. Your compensation will depend on your loan, tax, and significant other situations. As the current sole breadwinner for the wife and me, I'm in my third year, and I would have to make $120k+ in flyover country to get the same compensation I'm getting this year, and that doesn't count any retirement benefit.

I'm also not planning on doing PSLF, but it would be difficult to find a better job for PSLF.

[bsktbll28082]

I time to inform them of this commitment and that I will be gone for more than 4 months either in January or April of 2016? Should I tell them when they extend an offer or after I swear in or maybe a reasonable time before I go off to training?.

I am wondering something similar. Army JAG slots don't have you going to training until the February/next October after graduation. How do you approach this with an employer?

[edja0603]

Does anyone know the general schedule for training if I go to the October COT for the Air Force? Would I go to JASOC right afterwards, or is there a break for Thanksgiving/Christmas. Would I report to my duty base.

[Patrick Bateman]

Does anyone know the general schedule for training if I go to the October COT for the Air Force? Would I go to JASOC right afterwards, or is there a break for Thanksgiving/Christmas. Would I report to my duty base.

You will go to JASOC in February. The October (2015) and January (2016) COT classes are almost always consolidated into one larger JASOC class that begins in February (after the Jan COT folks graduate). It is nice to actually get to your base for those few months before going to JASOC - you'll be able to gain some context about you will be learning versus drinking abstract information from a fire hose. I went from Jan COT to Feb JASOC and was a bit frustrated at times, especially with the more technical military justice stuff (preferral, referral, the different convening authorities, etc).

[Anonymous User]

I'm an AF DAP selectee, I completed my physical and am waiting for bar results. Is there anything left to do waiting until January? Have they started collecting paperwork for the background check?

Unrelated: I also want to put in a new station preference sheet. Anybody have any info on what type of work is available in different locations?

Also, unrelated: I'm going to most likely apply for a deferral for my student loans because my school has a better public interest repayment program than PAYE. When do you receive your first paycheck? Has anybody located a solid source for info on the programs available for repaying student loans in the military? I may make a post up if there isnt a recent one floating around.

[Anonymous User]

Assistant U.S. Attorney after Jag?



Easy position to get after Jag?


Does being a former Jag help, if so how much?

[Anonymous User]

Assistant U.S. Attorney after Jag?



Easy position to get after Jag?


Does being a former Jag help, if so how much?

the JAG folks here will have a better idea, but I've interviewed with more than one USAO where it was a very popular path.

Related:

Gals/guys - I've probably read this whole thread but I can't for the life of me remember if there was any clear consensus on this point: best branch for military justice/criminal law? If you want to do a whole bunch of courts martial and SAUSA work, I'd imagine it's something like

Marines > AF > Army > Navy > CG

?

[Patrick Bateman]

It may be just me getting old and crusty but I feel the quality of the questions on this forum have gone down hill since this anonymous posting has been allowed. At the risk of making this like the sometimes hysterical "read the FAQ!" responses on my favorite Reddit pages, new folks need to read through all the previous posts. Yes, it will take a while. You will also go through years of collective wisdom and experience from a variety of different posters.

I'm an AF DAP selectee, I completed my physical and am waiting for bar results. Is there anything left to do waiting until January? Have they started collecting paperwork for the background check?

Unrelated: I also want to put in a new station preference sheet. Anybody have any info on what type of work is available in different locations?

Also, unrelated: I'm going to most likely apply for a deferral for my student loans because my school has a better public interest repayment program than PAYE. When do you receive your first paycheck? Has anybody located a solid source for info on the programs available for repaying student loans in the military? I may make a post up if there isnt a recent one floating around.

You'll update JAX when you pass the bar and that sets the next phase in motion. You will not have anything to do until then. "They" do not collect paperwork before the background check - you will submit your SF86 after you pass the bar which will initiate the background check.

You can submit a new dream sheet - the "different work at different bases" has been covered by me and other AF JAG posters previously (and thoroughly).

You will receive your first paycheck within a few weeks of your start at COT. AF JAG also has a loan repayment program that can be easily researched.

[Patrick Bateman]

Assistant U.S. Attorney after Jag?



Easy position to get after Jag?


Does being a former Jag help, if so how much?

Writing in complete sentences is even more of a help for an AUSA hiring than JAG, which is an acronym and capitalized.

I put together a pretty long post on my post-JAG employment experiences (including AUSA and DOJ) back in Jan/Feb.

[Patrick Bateman]

Assistant U.S. Attorney after Jag?



Easy position to get after Jag?


Does being a former Jag help, if so how much?

the JAG folks here will have a better idea, but I've interviewed with more than one USAO where it was a very popular path.

Related:

Gals/guys - I've probably read this whole thread but I can't for the life of me remember if there was any clear consensus on this point: best branch for military justice/criminal law? If you want to do a whole bunch of courts martial and SAUSA work, I'd imagine it's something like

Marines > AF > Army > Navy > CG

?

I doubt anyone can actually answer that question. You can look up who averages the most courts-martial per year, which I imagine has to be the Army given their size, but trying courts is totally dependent on your assignment (and I'm not sure where you are getting the Marine Corps as trying the most cases? Impression that they are the strictest? A Few Good Men?).

The Air Force gives you the opportunity to start trying cases at your first assignment, typically regardless if you are on the civil or criminal side of the base legal office. That said, there are bases that have a lot of courts each year and bases that only have a handful. Some bases have an active Magistrate Court program where SAUSAs can be busy, others do not have this program at all. You can take two new JAGs and depending on their assignments over the first four years, they may end up with a ton of trial experience or very little. Sometimes you can get stuck at a slower base for your first assignment but can make it up if you request a higher volume justice base for your second assignment. As has been discussed previously, as you get more senior, if you are good in the courtroom you can then be competitively selected for more advanced trial positions which are very courtroom focused.

I cannot speak as to how the Army or Navy staffs their assignments and how that impacts courtroom time.

[S. Goodman]

Assistant U.S. Attorney after Jag?



Easy position to get after Jag?


Does being a former Jag help, if so how much?

Writing in complete sentences is even more of a help for an AUSA hiring than JAG, which is an acronym and capitalized.

I put together a pretty long post on my post-JAG employment experiences (including AUSA and DOJ) back in Jan/Feb.

[shintopig]

It may be just me getting old and crusty but I feel the quality of the questions on this forum have gone down hill since this anonymous posting has been allowed. At the risk of making this like the sometimes hysterical "read the FAQ!" responses on my favorite Reddit pages, new folks need to read through all the previous posts. Yes, it will take a while. You will also go through years of collective wisdom and experience from a variety of different posters.

^bump

[Anonymous User]

Could Marines OCS count as officer training for another branch? For example, if a law student did OCS their 2L summer as part of the PLC law program, but declined their commission at the end of OCS, would that training "transfer over" if the applicant wanted to enter another branch of the military upon graduation, such as the Army Reserves?