Military Law Forum

[zVo]

Question...

This thread is very informative as to the application process, what to expect, et cetera, but there is very little information from real JAG officers as to what life is like as a JAG in any of the services. Are there any good threads or other forums that discuss JAG in-depth?

Z

[TheSpanishMain]

When should I expect to hear back from the NGB so that I can be sworn in?

The National Guard takes bureaucracy, inefficiency, and glacial pacing to Soviet levels. I'd just call and check on it, honestly.

Should I call my local OSM or the actual NGB Office at Fort Belvoir?

I'd like to avoid stepping on any toes.

Full disclosure: not a JAG, so take this with a grain of salt. I have been in the Army, though, and worked with a National Guard Brigade in Iraq, so I have some perspective.

I'd call whatever number you have, honestly. Frame it as a "Hey, I haven't heard anything in a few months, I just want to see if my packet is missing something, or..." type thing. As long as you're polite, no one is going to bite your head off.

[Kivan]

Full disclosure: not a JAG, so take this with a grain of salt. I have been in the Army, though, and worked with a National Guard Brigade in Iraq, so I have some perspective.

I'd call whatever number you have, honestly. Frame it as a "Hey, I haven't heard anything in a few months, I just want to see if my packet is missing something, or..." type thing. As long as you're polite, no one is going to bite your head off.

So I called the NGB office and this was the following conversation:

Him: "UH. . .how'd you get my number?"

Me: "From the website."

Him: "Which website?"

Me: "Uh. . .JARO website...?"


Eventually after the interrogation was complete he gave me the name of the current person in charge of NG Accession and left a VM. But you are right the conversation was simple and I even learned that another Accession Board for NG is scheduled to take place before the end of the year.

[TheSpanishMain]

Sounds about right for the Guard.
"how did you get my number?" translates to "why the fuck are you trying to make me work?"

[coffee282]

in case anyone was neurotic as I was and wanted to know when Fall 2013 accession board results were released:

AF: 11/18/13

Navy: 12/12/13

Army: (unsure)

Best of luck to everyone!!!!

[LSATmakesMeNeurotic]

in case anyone was neurotic as I was and wanted to know when Fall 2013 accession board results were released:

AF: 11/18/13

Navy: 12/12/13

Army: (unsure)

Best of luck to everyone!!!!

Army: 12/20/2013.

[shintopig]

in case anyone was neurotic as I was and wanted to know when Fall 2013 accession board results were released:

AF: 11/18/13

Navy: 12/12/13

Army: (unsure)

Best of luck to everyone!!!!

Army: 12/20/2013.

AF has a December board as well, so they release results again in January I believe. Only figured this out from one of the informational JA interviews on campus. According to their FB post from last year (https://www.facebook.com/USAFJAG/posts/636445063063188), any non-selects from the Oct 1st boards are automatically rolled to the Dec. boards. They're accepting apps now for that board till Nov 10th (https://www.facebook.com/USAFJAG/posts/797284780312548).

[Kivan]

Sounds about right for the Guard.
"how did you get my number?" translates to "why the fuck are you trying to make me work?"

Update:

They lost my MF'ing packet!

I called and spoke to the person and they called me back and said they had not record of my packet being submitted. However, my OSM has told me that they sent it off.

Ok, I'm gettin' upset now.

>:(

[TheSpanishMain]

Welcome to the military, my friend.

I generally enjoyed my time in the military and had a lot of cool experiences, but fuck ups like this are very common. The Green Weenie has just made tender love to your butthole for the first time, and it won't be the last. Bring some lube and learn to unclench.

[ket310]

Sounds about right for the Guard.
"how did you get my number?" translates to "why the fuck are you trying to make me work?"

Update:

They lost my MF'ing packet!

I called and spoke to the person and they called me back and said they had not record of my packet being submitted. However, my OSM has told me that they sent it off.

Ok, I'm gettin' upset now.

>:(

This is why I can't F'ing stand the military. Your career is gonna be decided by someone else who is either incompetent/doesn't give a fuck about your career. I've seen my friend being denied Ranger School cuz some stupid guy fucked up his paperwork. So many lazy dumb fucks who don't know what they are doing.

Not to say all veterans suck (I also am one), but some are just ridiculous and wasting so much of our tax.

[Kivan]

Welcome to the military, my friend.

I generally enjoyed my time in the military and had a lot of cool experiences, but fuck ups like this are very common. The Green Weenie has just made tender love to your butthole for the first time, and it won't be the last. Bring some lube and learn to unclench.

I think the infuriating part is that the FUCK UP is on the Federal side. My State office has been completely helpful and responsive. But whenever I contact some in D.C./Virginia, then it is nothing but a hassle.

I'm gonna ask if I can just E-MAIL my packet to someone's specific address. I doubt they can lose THAT!

[TheSpanishMain]

Welcome to the military, my friend.

I generally enjoyed my time in the military and had a lot of cool experiences, but fuck ups like this are very common. The Green Weenie has just made tender love to your butthole for the first time, and it won't be the last. Bring some lube and learn to unclench.

I think the infuriating part is that the FUCK UP is on the Federal side. My State office has been completely helpful and responsive. But whenever I contact some in D.C./Virginia, then it is nothing but a hassle.

I'm gonna ask if I can just E-MAIL my packet to someone's specific address. I doubt they can lose THAT!

You should always do this for these situations. Never take anyone's word that they sent your packet where they were supposed to. Email a PDF copy yourself. Do it in a friendly way (i.e don't write, "You retards always lose my shit, so here you go, idiot." Go with "Hey, just wanted to pass this along as a back up...") but never trust admin types.

[jayessbee]

You should always do this for these situations. Never take anyone's word that they sent your packet where they were supposed to. Email a PDF copy yourself. Do it in a friendly way (i.e don't write, "You retards always lose my shit, so here you go, idiot." Go with "Hey, just wanted to pass this along as a back up...") but never trust admin types.

That's good advice period, not just for the military. Middlemen have more than just your business on their plate, so there is always a chance of error.

[ar27-1]

Question...

This thread is very informative as to the application process, what to expect, et cetera, but there is very little information from real JAG officers as to what life is like as a JAG in any of the services. Are there any good threads or other forums that discuss JAG in-depth?

Z

Five days a week I show up to work at 0615 for an accountability formation and to salute the flag at 0630. Then, I do PT with my platoon -- there never is a PT plan, just a requirement to exercise until 0730. Next, I take a quick shower and get to my office no later than 0815. And then I spend at least the next 10-11 hours bouncing between randomly scheduled meetings and training sessions, "emergency" assignments that are mostly pointless, and other work that requires no legal training. Sometimes I do legal work -- I almost never practice at the same level as I did when I was a civilian attorney. I spend much less time with my family than I thought I would, and I have almost no ability to influence some of the biggest factors that affect my family's quality of life.

If you join the JAG Corps at this point (through direct commission), you'll get promoted to captain within six months to a year, but you won't really be eligible for the next promotion for another seven years. You'll spend those seven years worrying more about your evaluation reports than is healthy, even though the whole evaluation reporting system has really become a game of managing and leveraging one's rating profile. You'll also feel a lot of pressure to chase after shittier and shittier jobs just to make yourself feel better about your chances for promotion -- after all, there is no other type of advancement when you can't get promoted until have served a certain number of years.

You'll constantly think about whether you should stay in or get out.

[Kivan]

Five days a week I show up to work at 0615 for an accountability formation and to salute the flag at 0630. Then, I do PT with my platoon -- there never is a PT plan, just a requirement to exercise until 0730. Next, I take a quick shower and get to my office no later than 0815. And then I spend at least the next 10-11 hours bouncing between randomly scheduled meetings and training sessions, "emergency" assignments that are mostly pointless, and other work that requires no legal training. Sometimes I do legal work -- I almost never practice at the same level as I did when I was a civilian attorney. I spend much less time with my family than I thought I would, and I have almost no ability to influence some of the biggest factors that affect my family's quality of life.

If you join the JAG Corps at this point (through direct commission), you'll get promoted to captain within six months to a year, but you won't really be eligible for the next promotion for another seven years. You'll spend those seven years worrying more about your evaluation reports than is healthy, even though the whole evaluation reporting system has really become a game of managing and leveraging one's rating profile. You'll also feel a lot of pressure to chase after shittier and shittier jobs just to make yourself feel better about your chances for promotion -- after all, there is no other type of advancement when you can't get promoted until have served a certain number of years.

You'll constantly think about whether you should stay in or get out.

What about Reservist and NG JAG. Do they have it better since they still have their civilian lives/practices?

[anon sequitur]

Five days a week I show up to work at 0615 for an accountability formation and to salute the flag at 0630. Then, I do PT with my platoon -- there never is a PT plan, just a requirement to exercise until 0730. Next, I take a quick shower and get to my office no later than 0815. And then I spend at least the next 10-11 hours bouncing between randomly scheduled meetings and training sessions, "emergency" assignments that are mostly pointless, and other work that requires no legal training. Sometimes I do legal work -- I almost never practice at the same level as I did when I was a civilian attorney. I spend much less time with my family than I thought I would, and I have almost no ability to influence some of the biggest factors that affect my family's quality of life.

If you join the JAG Corps at this point (through direct commission), you'll get promoted to captain within six months to a year, but you won't really be eligible for the next promotion for another seven years. You'll spend those seven years worrying more about your evaluation reports than is healthy, even though the whole evaluation reporting system has really become a game of managing and leveraging one's rating profile. You'll also feel a lot of pressure to chase after shittier and shittier jobs just to make yourself feel better about your chances for promotion -- after all, there is no other type of advancement when you can't get promoted until have served a certain number of years.

You'll constantly think about whether you should stay in or get out.

Thanks for your input, would love to hear more from people who were dissatisfied. Which branch, if you don't mind saying? And how much of a difference does it make which branch? Do some branches do more or less administrative, civil or criminal assignments? For someone who wants to do criminal law as either a DA or a PD, I've been told that the army is not a good choice, would you agree?

[howell]

In the AF, you will likely spend your first 4 years between 2 legal offices. So you'll be at one office for about 2 years and then about the same for the next. After that the jobs diverge a lot more.

The problem with working at a base legal office is that the missions can be very different, and the SJAs can vary even more. There are some bases that might go a year or longer without a court-martial and others that might have 1 or more each week. I can't stress how much your particular SJA can affect what your work will be like and whether you'll see your family. I have had a very tough experience, and I think I'm on the worse end of the spectrum. I have 10 years of work before entering in professional services firms to compare it to. My friends have all had different experiences. Some seem bored. One guy has already left (< 2 years in) because his kids were growing up without a father. I work 7 days a week, and I'm still never going to be able to meet the expectations of my boss. However, I think I will at least get a good outcome going to my next assignment; others haven't been so lucky coming out of my office.

I echo the previous poster that actual legal work is limited the first few years. Certainly that depends on how you define it, but I don't spend much time at all on Westlaw/Lexis. I do "legal" work by doing trials and similar hearings/boards. I respond to motions, but usually it's more fact-based than figuring out what the law is/should be. We do a lot of legal reviews, in that we are given a situation, and then we have to apply the laws/regulations in place to determine whether certain options are valid. Certainly we do a good bit of legal assistance, but even with that, it's rare to do significant legal research.

Opportunities to do more traditional legal work do exist after the base legal offices in other jobs you can get after a few years in. But opportunities to do more administrative work are also abundant. It's really an odd mix of things you can get your hands on.

I'm not as worried about promotion as much as the previous poster. Promotion rates for JAGs in the AF (who survive force reductions) are very high. And promotions seem like a bit of a shell game as it is, even beyond just the luck of having bosses who know how to look out for you. Plenty of paper tigers who get promoted very quickly yet you would never want to have to work with them, and there are a lot of great people who don't get the best results.

[TheSpanishMain]

Question...

This thread is very informative as to the application process, what to expect, et cetera, but there is very little information from real JAG officers as to what life is like as a JAG in any of the services. Are there any good threads or other forums that discuss JAG in-depth?

Z

Five days a week I show up to work at 0615 for an accountability formation and to salute the flag at 0630. Then, I do PT with my platoon -- there never is a PT plan, just a requirement to exercise until 0730. Next, I take a quick shower and get to my office no later than 0815. And then I spend at least the next 10-11 hours bouncing between randomly scheduled meetings and training sessions, "emergency" assignments that are mostly pointless, and other work that requires no legal training. Sometimes I do legal work -- I almost never practice at the same level as I did when I was a civilian attorney. I spend much less time with my family than I thought I would, and I have almost no ability to influence some of the biggest factors that affect my family's quality of life.

If you join the JAG Corps at this point (through direct commission), you'll get promoted to captain within six months to a year, but you won't really be eligible for the next promotion for another seven years. You'll spend those seven years worrying more about your evaluation reports than is healthy, even though the whole evaluation reporting system has really become a game of managing and leveraging one's rating profile. You'll also feel a lot of pressure to chase after shittier and shittier jobs just to make yourself feel better about your chances for promotion -- after all, there is no other type of advancement when you can't get promoted until have served a certain number of years.

You'll constantly think about whether you should stay in or get out.

How long have you been in? The word "platoon" is throwing me. The lowest ranking JAGs I knew in the Army were still on battalion staff, which meant no unit PT most days. I'm just confused about why a JAG officer would have/be in a platoon, unless you have a shit ton of paralegals to herd.

[ar27-1]

How long have you been in? The word "platoon" is throwing me. The lowest ranking JAGs I knew in the Army were still on battalion staff, which meant no unit PT most days. I'm just confused about why a JAG officer would have/be in a platoon, unless you have a shit ton of paralegals to herd.

Long enough not to be the lowest-ranking "JAG." In my unit, almost every Soldier--officer and enlisted--participates in unit PT every morning. Not every unit organizes PT the same way.

[TheSpanishMain]

How long have you been in? The word "platoon" is throwing me. The lowest ranking JAGs I knew in the Army were still on battalion staff, which meant no unit PT most days. I'm just confused about why a JAG officer would have/be in a platoon, unless you have a shit ton of paralegals to herd.

Long enough not to be the lowest-ranking "JAG." In my unit, almost every Soldier--officer and enlisted--participates in unit PT every morning. Not every unit organizes PT the same way.

Yeah, that's atypical. Are you 82nd?

For the record, wasn't accusing you of lying or anything, just struck me as out of the ordinary

[Esquire]

Question...

This thread is very informative as to the application process, what to expect, et cetera, but there is very little information from real JAG officers as to what life is like as a JAG in any of the services. Are there any good threads or other forums that discuss JAG in-depth?

Z

Five days a week I show up to work at 0615 for an accountability formation and to salute the flag at 0630. Then, I do PT with my platoon -- there never is a PT plan, just a requirement to exercise until 0730. Next, I take a quick shower and get to my office no later than 0815. And then I spend at least the next 10-11 hours bouncing between randomly scheduled meetings and training sessions, "emergency" assignments that are mostly pointless, and other work that requires no legal training. Sometimes I do legal work -- I almost never practice at the same level as I did when I was a civilian attorney. I spend much less time with my family than I thought I would, and I have almost no ability to influence some of the biggest factors that affect my family's quality of life.

If you join the JAG Corps at this point (through direct commission), you'll get promoted to captain within six months to a year, but you won't really be eligible for the next promotion for another seven years. You'll spend those seven years worrying more about your evaluation reports than is healthy, even though the whole evaluation reporting system has really become a game of managing and leveraging one's rating profile. You'll also feel a lot of pressure to chase after shittier and shittier jobs just to make yourself feel better about your chances for promotion -- after all, there is no other type of advancement when you can't get promoted until have served a certain number of years.

You'll constantly think about whether you should stay in or get out.

How long have you been in? The word "platoon" is throwing me. The lowest ranking JAGs I knew in the Army were still on battalion staff, which meant no unit PT most days. I'm just confused about why a JAG officer would have/be in a platoon, unless you have a shit ton of paralegals to herd.

Depends on your job. If you're the JA for the battalion, you'll be embedded in that unit. So it's up to that unit what your PT is like. Of course, as you can imagine, that varies tremendously. If you're with the main JA office, that consists only of legal staff, your group might do morning formations, group PT, individual PT, no PT, who knows. Speaking for the Army, there's no one set standard.

[illiniguy1551]

...

[navykev]

Not a JAG but a retiring Navy Command Master Chief (E9). Worked with Navy JAGs on mostly NJP (Article 15) type stuff -- so I can offer you that perspective.

As far as Navy life -- I can offer you a lot of perspective -- Ive been on small ships, big ships, in aviation squadrons, on staffs and boots on the ground in Iraq. Most JAGs at sea are on carriers or on afloat staffs. If you have any questions about that life -- let me know.

[mhylden]

How many others out there waiting for AF Oct. Board results? This was my first attempt so I am aware it is unlikely but still hopeful.

Top half of class at T3. Supreme Court of State Clerk. US Congressional Clerk. Prosecutor's Office Clerk. Attorney General Office Clerk. Four years in management at fortune 400 firm before law school. Not great undergrad grades.

[spleenworship]

What kinds of classes you take in LS?