Military Law Forum

[Esquire]

If you interview, you are ranked against other applicants.

[armyhooah]

Made it as an Army AD select. I am beyond grateful. It could have been anyone here and probably most who applied. Thank you all for your contributions. I'll try to give back to the thread as much as it's given to me, but I honestly think if future applicants take the time to read through the already 200+ pages, it's pretty much all been covered. The rest is up to chance and stars aligning. Hope you all are enjoying the holidays and Happy New Year!

[theinvisiblehand]

Because of the delay in releasing Army JAG internship results, I decided to accept another offer that was about to expire. Does anyone know if it is expected that I contact JARO to withdraw my application, or should I just wait for the results to come out? I know the chances of actually getting the internship are very low, but I do not want to waste anyone's time or be disrespectful to the other applicants in consideration. Thanks.

[doolie]

I'm curious who told JAG Dog that the interviewing SJA does a rack-n-stack. If that actually happens, it is a new development in the AF JAG application process. Interview packages are usually processed immediately after the interview takes place. A rack-n-stack would be impossible. Getting a strong recommendation from a Colonel or LtCol SJA at a big base is better than a recommendation from an SJA who is a Major or LtCol at a small base. LtCol SJAs at big bases are placed in those assignments because they are well-regarded and likely to make Colonel. Keep in mind that the SJA interview is only one part of the overall record. They are looking for well-rounded individuals who will fit in with the organizational culture. Even the photograph matters because they are looking to see if the candidate is physically fit. If a prospective candidate wants to put forth the best application he/she can, that individual should do some research on military culture and AF JAG culture in particular. In doing that research, he/she may realize being a JAG is his/her calling and be even more committed to the process or that he/she would be better off pursuing something else.

Doolie - we definitely rack and stack. I don't believe this is a "new development" as I am quite sure that happened to my application back when I applied as well. The SJA's job is to compare everyone that came through their office and identify their top candidates for each board. The SJA writes a summary for each candidate, ranks them in order of strongest to weakest, and includes all that in the big batch of packages that are sent up as a group to the board. At my first base (a big AF base in a big metro area), we had tons of great candidates come through, many of whom would no doubt have made fine JAGs. But, the nature of rack-and-stacking is that there can only be one #1.

You are absolutely right that well-respected SJAs and those at bigger bases with more applicants may get more than one applicant "in" at a given board, but that isn't necessarily due to reputation or rank. It is also a numbers game, and it can play either way in a given applicant's favor. Speaking generally, you either want to be #1 at a smaller base (with presumably fewer applicants), or #1-2 or 3 at a larger base (with presumably more applicants). In our case, being a big base with lots of applicants, usually our #s 2 and 3 also got picked up. That wasn't always the case, however. Sometimes people were #1 or #2 and didn't get picked up at all.

Insert here the important reminder that the physical fitness aspect of your application is EXTREMELY important. We had an amazing candidate who did not get picked up, despite being highly ranked by our awesome and very well-respected SJA. The feedback was that the AF was concerned about the potential fitness issue. So, be warned that the photograph documents potential fitness as well as your general professionalism. It isn't necessary to hire a professional photog, but obviously avoid piles of dirty laundry or beer bottles or other weird and inappropriate things. You don't have to be in perfect shape to apply, but you have to be working on it and getting close to where you need to be.

Also insert here the reminder that EVERYONE in the office can provide input on an applicant they meet...even someone who only saw you for a minute.

Finally, it is worth stressing that your interview can break/destroy an otherwise great package. It doesn't matter if you're great on paper. If you come across badly to your SJA, you are done. Believe me, we heard all kinds of stories about crazy things that otherwise amazingly-qualified people said or did. When you have a ton of great applicants with lots of different great aspects, that interview becomes EXTREMELY important. If you think you are just mediocre on paper but have great volunteer/public-interest activities, a great interview, and really impress the SJA and the office, that can push you up to the top.

While it is probably true that higher ranked SJA's get more for their recommendations than a more junior SJA, JagDog's strategy totally made sense based on our practices. The advice he apparently got (and followed) is exactly what I usually recommend.

You can't rack-n-stack against candidates you haven't interviewed yet. The SJA would have to hold on to all of the applications until just before the deadline and rate them all at once otherwise the ranking is meaningless. I know for a fact that is not what happened a few years ago and I know what those files looked like. The board does the real rack-n-stack based on how they score the packages and I completely agree that if the SJA tubes the application, the individual won't make it. What I'm debating is whether a positive recommendation from a lower ranking SJA at a small base carries more weight than a positive recommendation from a higher ranking SJA at a big base. Maybe JAX has changed the process and wants the SJAs to hold on to the applications until they are done interviewing so they can rack-n-stack, but I know that was definitely not the process a few years ago. I'm not saying that a candidate can't get picked up because they interview at a small base. What I'm disputing is this notion that it's somehow better to interview at a small base than a large one based on the premise that SJAs rack-n-stack the people they interview.

[FeuerFrei]

I'm curious who told JAG Dog that the interviewing SJA does a rack-n-stack. If that actually happens, it is a new development in the AF JAG application process. Interview packages are usually processed immediately after the interview takes place. A rack-n-stack would be impossible. Getting a strong recommendation from a Colonel or LtCol SJA at a big base is better than a recommendation from an SJA who is a Major or LtCol at a small base. LtCol SJAs at big bases are placed in those assignments because they are well-regarded and likely to make Colonel. Keep in mind that the SJA interview is only one part of the overall record. They are looking for well-rounded individuals who will fit in with the organizational culture. Even the photograph matters because they are looking to see if the candidate is physically fit. If a prospective candidate wants to put forth the best application he/she can, that individual should do some research on military culture and AF JAG culture in particular. In doing that research, he/she may realize being a JAG is his/her calling and be even more committed to the process or that he/she would be better off pursuing something else.

Doolie - we definitely rack and stack. I don't believe this is a "new development" as I am quite sure that happened to my application back when I applied as well. The SJA's job is to compare everyone that came through their office and identify their top candidates for each board. The SJA writes a summary for each candidate, ranks them in order of strongest to weakest, and includes all that in the big batch of packages that are sent up as a group to the board. At my first base (a big AF base in a big metro area), we had tons of great candidates come through, many of whom would no doubt have made fine JAGs. But, the nature of rack-and-stacking is that there can only be one #1.

You are absolutely right that well-respected SJAs and those at bigger bases with more applicants may get more than one applicant "in" at a given board, but that isn't necessarily due to reputation or rank. It is also a numbers game, and it can play either way in a given applicant's favor. Speaking generally, you either want to be #1 at a smaller base (with presumably fewer applicants), or #1-2 or 3 at a larger base (with presumably more applicants). In our case, being a big base with lots of applicants, usually our #s 2 and 3 also got picked up. That wasn't always the case, however. Sometimes people were #1 or #2 and didn't get picked up at all.

Insert here the important reminder that the physical fitness aspect of your application is EXTREMELY important. We had an amazing candidate who did not get picked up, despite being highly ranked by our awesome and very well-respected SJA. The feedback was that the AF was concerned about the potential fitness issue. So, be warned that the photograph documents potential fitness as well as your general professionalism. It isn't necessary to hire a professional photog, but obviously avoid piles of dirty laundry or beer bottles or other weird and inappropriate things. You don't have to be in perfect shape to apply, but you have to be working on it and getting close to where you need to be.

Also insert here the reminder that EVERYONE in the office can provide input on an applicant they meet...even someone who only saw you for a minute.

Finally, it is worth stressing that your interview can break/destroy an otherwise great package. It doesn't matter if you're great on paper. If you come across badly to your SJA, you are done. Believe me, we heard all kinds of stories about crazy things that otherwise amazingly-qualified people said or did. When you have a ton of great applicants with lots of different great aspects, that interview becomes EXTREMELY important. If you think you are just mediocre on paper but have great volunteer/public-interest activities, a great interview, and really impress the SJA and the office, that can push you up to the top.

While it is probably true that higher ranked SJA's get more for their recommendations than a more junior SJA, JagDog's strategy totally made sense based on our practices. The advice he apparently got (and followed) is exactly what I usually recommend.

You can't rack-n-stack against candidates you haven't interviewed yet. The SJA would have to hold on to all of the applications until just before the deadline and rate them all at once otherwise the ranking is meaningless. I know for a fact that is not what happened a few years ago and I know what those files looked like. The board does the real rack-n-stack based on how they score the packages and I completely agree that if the SJA tubes the application, the individual won't make it. What I'm debating is whether a positive recommendation from a lower ranking SJA at a small base carries more weight than a positive recommendation from a higher ranking SJA at a big base. Maybe JAX has changed the process and wants the SJAs to hold on to the applications until they are done interviewing so they can rack-n-stack, but I know that was definitely not the process a few years ago. I'm not saying that a candidate can't get picked up because they interview at a small base. What I'm disputing is this notion that it's somehow better to interview at a small base than a large one based on the premise that SJAs rack-n-stack the people they interview.

I interviewed in 2011 and my SJA held all of the applications until the day before the deadline and shipped them to JAX all at once. There was a rack and stack.

[Moves like JAGger]

FWIW, I was picked up by the April board and my SJA interviewer told me directly that he racks and stacks the applicants. That was the actual term he used.

I interviewed at a small base.

[Black Hat]

Made it as an Army AD select. I am beyond grateful. It could have been anyone here and probably most who applied. Thank you all for your contributions. I'll try to give back to the thread as much as it's given to me, but I honestly think if future applicants take the time to read through the already 200+ pages, it's pretty much all been covered. The rest is up to chance and stars aligning. Hope you all are enjoying the holidays and Happy New Year!

What are your stats like? If you don't mind me asking.

I know the whole thing is competitive. I am prior military. I just cant imagine them turning prior military away.

[armyhooah]

Made it as an Army AD select. I am beyond grateful. It could have been anyone here and probably most who applied. Thank you all for your contributions. I'll try to give back to the thread as much as it's given to me, but I honestly think if future applicants take the time to read through the already 200+ pages, it's pretty much all been covered. The rest is up to chance and stars aligning. Hope you all are enjoying the holidays and Happy New Year!

What are your stats like? If you don't mind me asking.

I know the whole thing is competitive. I am prior military. I just cant imagine them turning prior military away.

I don't mind. I was already licensed. Graduated in 2012. I was not at the top of the class. On journal and and won awards in moot court. Not prior military. I had very personal reasons for wanting to join and conveyed that in my application. Also interned for JAG and had strong recommendations from that experience.

I think prior military will really help in that you won't have to convince anyone you can keep up physically and that you'll fit into the lifestyle. I was asked repeatedly about this, and you won't have that hurdle at least.

Best of luck!

[Black Hat]

Made it as an Army AD select. I am beyond grateful. It could have been anyone here and probably most who applied. Thank you all for your contributions. I'll try to give back to the thread as much as it's given to me, but I honestly think if future applicants take the time to read through the already 200+ pages, it's pretty much all been covered. The rest is up to chance and stars aligning. Hope you all are enjoying the holidays and Happy New Year!

What are your stats like? If you don't mind me asking.

I know the whole thing is competitive. I am prior military. I just cant imagine them turning prior military away.

I don't mind. I was already licensed. Graduated in 2012. I was not at the top of the class. On journal and and won awards in moot court. Not prior military. I had very personal reasons for wanting to join and conveyed that in my application. Also interned for JAG and had strong recommendations from that experience.

I think prior military will really help in that you won't have to convince anyone you can keep up physically and that you'll fit into the lifestyle. I was asked repeatedly about this, and you won't have that hurdle at least.

Best of luck!

Thanks!

[trayball23]

Was accepted Navy JAG last year and was wondering if anyone had any information on duty stations. I am interested in doing operational law and was wondering if certain locations lend themselves more to getting that type of billet than others. thanks

[31415926]

Does anyone have any experience with reapplying later if you've already been selected? I've been picked up for all three services but, due to life reasons, may have to decline in favor of another job offer I have on the table at the moment. I very much want to serve as a JAG, but it simply isn't looking feasible at the moment. Would I be barring myself from ever being selected again if I decline now?

[Black Hat]

Does anyone have any experience with reapplying later if you've already been selected? I've been picked up for all three services but, due to life reasons, may have to decline in favor of another job offer I have on the table at the moment. I very much want to serve as a JAG, but it simply isn't looking feasible at the moment. Would I be barring myself from ever being selected again if I decline now?

What are your stats like if you don't mind me asking?

I don't have an answer to your question that would be based on any tangible reputable source. I am prior military and life stuff happens all the time. Intuition tells me it wouldn't hurt if you applied again later. But I just cant say with any degree of certainty.

[JAGGER]

Was accepted Navy JAG last year and was wondering if anyone had any information on duty stations. I am interested in doing operational law and was wondering if certain locations lend themselves more to getting that type of billet than others. thanks

Current Navy JAG. As a first-tour judge advocate, you will not get to do much operational law regardless of which base you are assigned to because you are required to complete Military Justice (prosecution/defense) and general legal assistance (wills, family law, consumer law) as part of a program that has been implemented for new JAGs in an effort to provide them with general expertise before throwing them into military tribunals.

However, from what I gather, for your later tours you would be advised to go overseas to a base in Japan, Italy, or the Horn of Africa if you would like to practice operational law. Obviously being at sea will also enable you to practice operational law. (DC, Norfolk, and/or San Diego might also apply, but I could be wrong.) The bottom line is that you will want to make the case to your detailer that your education, experience, and passion would make you well-suited to a base that would allow you to practice operational law.

Best of luck.

[Bassett16]

Any idea on what the best preparation for JAG service may be? Looking for both courses and internships...

Possible internships: Federal Defenders, District Attorney, USAO, Public Defender, NLRB, EEOC
Possible elective classes: Labor/employment law, military law, any flavor of criminal law, admin law, environmental law, tax law, Fed Courts?

Our internships with the DA/PD allow you to sit second chair, however its going to be state law focused and military practice will not involve much state law. USAO/Fed Defenders will deal with federal law, which while probably substantively more applicable to be immersed in, will likely be a more "indirect" experience in terms of trying cases.

NLRB/EEOC and/or environmental classes and internships would be to get some exposure to the administrative law that the military deals with so much.

I'm on an active-duty JAG program so no need for a "JAG" internship (I'll do those over the summer)--just looking for the best education/experience base possible to make up for my three years spent in law school and out of the fleet--basically just looking for what's going to enable me to hit the ground running as a baby lawyer but relatively seasoned military officer.

Any advice appreciated, particularly from current and/or past Judge Advocates!

[howell]

Bassett, what service - Navy? It will change a bit depending on where you're going to end up, because each JAG corps is run a bit differently.

For any of them, court experience and a focus on criminal law in law school would be helpful, because you will likely be in the courtroom very quickly. Certainly take Evidence, the Crim Pros, and associated classes. Get all of the trial practice courses and extracurriculars you can, because, for most people, you're not going to learn Evidence and other topics until you actually have to use it on your feet. Rather, you will have to use it on your feet, so being able to write a brilliant 30 page essay on the validity of a particular hearsay objection is not as useful as identifying issues on the fly in time to act on them and being able to respond to the judge when necessary. So get on the mock trial team and, of lesser importance, moot court.

Even better than that (for the most part) would be getting a job where you can practice in court. Others may disagree, but I don't think state vs. federal matters much at all. Unless you can get the chance to practice in a military court (which is not outside the realm of possibilities during your summers), there will be a transition to the UCMJ. The skills of being able to follow and apply procedure and evidence rules are what you want to build - what those specific rules are can be adapted to quickly. I would rather see someone have tried a few cases as a 3L than written a few briefs. You have a couple of years to do intern/externships, so you can still mix it up, but get practice in front of a judge if you can.

If you're Navy, then my understanding is that Ops Law would be the next biggest focus (Navy people, correct me if I'm wrong). Thus, classes in Military Law, International Law, and the like would be helpful. If you can get internships related to that, then awesome, but they'll be harder to come by than trial/practice internships. If you're not Navy, then I would just dabble in these subjects to at least get a background in them, because you probably won't be using much in this area your first few years.

If you're not Navy, then legal assistance and civil law-type stuff would be your next focus area (although AD NAVY JAGs may do legal assistance - ?). Take a wills course. You can possibly get some experience working with legal assistance subjects while volunteering. On the civil law side, take both Con Laws and Admin Law. Maybe an Employment/Labor Law if you're feeling nerdy.

If you're going to be spending your summers in JAG offices, then certainly start paying attention to what they're doing there and asking around about what would be helpful to learn. Take into consideration that the office where you intern may have a very different mission than where you start after law school.

[howell]

Would anyone here want to be the new OP? My thought is we could then organize the first post to provide a summary, links, updates, etc.

[JDdrummer89]

Hi all, I'm a 2L who's pretty new to this thread but it seems like a fantastic resource for JAG. I'm 0/1 Navy so far but plan to apply again. Congrats to everyone selected for all branches this round!

I have a question about grades: my 1L grades were all fine, but this semester I really bombed my evidence exam and came out with a C-. I managed to get an A in every other class (so I think my overall GPA will actually go up), but I am really worried that the C- will stick out as a black mark on my transcript. I have already contacted my professor and plan to talk with him about the exam and what I can do to improve. Any advice on how much one C- will hurt my JAG chances?

The selection board will have access to your transcript - evidence is a pretty important subject in our line of work. However, I doubt it will have much, if any, real effect.

Thanks NavyJAG1. Nice to know I'm not out of the running haha. I plan to take as many crim law-oriented classes as possible and I have some other stuff on my application that can offset the C- (moot court, did a Navy internship this past summer, etc.).

[LSATmakesMeNeurotic]

Would anyone here want to be the new OP? My thought is we could then organize the first post to provide a summary, links, updates, etc.

That's a great idea! I might have the time to clean it up if needed.

[Bassett16]

Bassett, what service - Navy? It will change a bit depending on where you're going to end up, because each JAG corps is run a bit differently.

For any of them, court experience and a focus on criminal law in law school would be helpful, because you will likely be in the courtroom very quickly. Certainly take Evidence, the Crim Pros, and associated classes. Get all of the trial practice courses and extracurriculars you can, because, for most people, you're not going to learn Evidence and other topics until you actually have to use it on your feet. Rather, you will have to use it on your feet, so being able to write a brilliant 30 page essay on the validity of a particular hearsay objection is not as useful as identifying issues on the fly in time to act on them and being able to respond to the judge when necessary. So get on the mock trial team and, of lesser importance, moot court.

Even better than that (for the most part) would be getting a job where you can practice in court. Others may disagree, but I don't think state vs. federal matters much at all. Unless you can get the chance to practice in a military court (which is not outside the realm of possibilities during your summers), there will be a transition to the UCMJ. The skills of being able to follow and apply procedure and evidence rules are what you want to build - what those specific rules are can be adapted to quickly. I would rather see someone have tried a few cases as a 3L than written a few briefs. You have a couple of years to do intern/externships, so you can still mix it up, but get practice in front of a judge if you can.

If you're Navy, then my understanding is that Ops Law would be the next biggest focus (Navy people, correct me if I'm wrong). Thus, classes in Military Law, International Law, and the like would be helpful. If you can get internships related to that, then awesome, but they'll be harder to come by than trial/practice internships. If you're not Navy, then I would just dabble in these subjects to at least get a background in them, because you probably won't be using much in this area your first few years.

If you're not Navy, then legal assistance and civil law-type stuff would be your next focus area (although AD NAVY JAGs may do legal assistance - ?). Take a wills course. You can possibly get some experience working with legal assistance subjects while volunteering. On the civil law side, take both Con Laws and Admin Law. Maybe an Employment/Labor Law if you're feeling nerdy.

If you're going to be spending your summers in JAG offices, then certainly start paying attention to what they're doing there and asking around about what would be helpful to learn. Take into consideration that the office where you intern may have a very different mission than where you start after law school.

@Howell--Thanks a lot for the insight. I'm going to take your advice into consideration in my degree planning. Much appreciated!!

[31415926]

Does anyone have any experience with reapplying later if you've already been selected? I've been picked up for all three services but, due to life reasons, may have to decline in favor of another job offer I have on the table at the moment. I very much want to serve as a JAG, but it simply isn't looking feasible at the moment. Would I be barring myself from ever being selected again if I decline now?

What are your stats like if you don't mind me asking?

I don't have an answer to your question that would be based on any tangible reputable source. I am prior military and life stuff happens all the time. Intuition tells me it wouldn't hurt if you applied again later. But I just cant say with any degree of certainty.

Pm-ed!

[Billyp]

Did you consider the Graduate Law Program or the One-Year College Program?

Do you know how hard it is to get into one of these programs? Do they basically take you if you apply or is it just as competitive as JAG itself?

[BigJH18]

Did you consider the Graduate Law Program or the One-Year College Program?

Do you know how hard it is to get into one of these programs? Do they basically take you if you apply or is it just as competitive as JAG itself?

I am currently applying for the OYCP. You should go and read through the forum. I spent a couple hours going through the pages and reading up on people's posts. I can only speak from what I have read and the sentiment is that it is harder because less people are accepted. More people apply through DAP and more get accepted through that route. For OYCP and GLP there are less applicants but the acceptance rate is also lower.

I have been working very hard on my application and doing a lot of research because it is very competitive and I want a perfect application with no minor errors. Everything I've read tells me that attention to detail is very important.

Read through Patrick Bateman, Allaf and AFJAG2014's posts. They have been a tremendous help to me. If you are serious then invest the time in doing the research and you will thank yourself.

[ouhkn]

Thanks for the thread, everyone--very informative. I have a question I have not seen answered yet. I'm a current 3L who summered with a biglaw firm last summer and received and accepted their offer. However, for a variety of reasons, I'd really like to apply for the JAG Corps. I'd prefer to keep my firm out of the loop on this for obvious reasons. Does anyone know if recruiters contact your past employers in the application process?

[Black Hat]

Thanks for the thread, everyone--very informative. I have a question I have not seen answered yet. I'm a current 3L who summered with a biglaw firm last summer and received and accepted their offer. However, for a variety of reasons, I'd really like to apply for the JAG Corps. I'd prefer to keep my firm out of the loop on this for obvious reasons. Does anyone know if recruiters contact your past employers in the application process?

They may, they may not. I don't think anyone here is going to be able to tell you definitely whether it is part of the recruiters SOP. They may tell you their experiences but then that is hardly definitive or reliable. You may get one "gung ho" recruiter who wants to talk to your past employers to determine your resolve/work ethic/personality/discipline etc.

Is it common to continue to apply places after accepting offers? That is not a rhetorical question, I really am curious. If it isn't, continuing to apply places against that custom may be deceitful and may have negative ramifications. I wouldn't risk a solid job offer to apply for a potential job on the word of a bunch of people on a internet forum. We have nothing to lose by giving you bad advice.

But that is me, err on the side of caution, or don't. Seems like a definite risk though.

If I were interviewing you for Jag, I would definitely want to talk to your prior employers because I wouldn't want someone to get in who was garbage, had no discipline or bad work ethic. (I am prior military, my line of thinking may be similar to recruiters, it may not. I am not a recruiter!).

[howell]

Thanks for the thread, everyone--very informative. I have a question I have not seen answered yet. I'm a current 3L who summered with a biglaw firm last summer and received and accepted their offer. However, for a variety of reasons, I'd really like to apply for the JAG Corps. I'd prefer to keep my firm out of the loop on this for obvious reasons. Does anyone know if recruiters contact your past employers in the application process?

I'm not aware of the AF calling previous/current employers at any point during the application process. Can it happen? I guess it would be possible, but it would be extremely unlikely. The way the selection process works, there's just no way they're going to be calling employers. For the AF side, you could call JAX just to verify that it's not their current process to do so.

If you get selected, you have to go through a background check. I don't think they could ever tell you that they won't be calling somebody for the check, but I don't think they contact many employers at all for this level of clearance. When I got selected, I did not want my employer at the time to know, and, as I far as I know, they never found out until I told them I was leaving.