Military Law Forum

[AndyB617]

i know as a former NCO (and future JAG hopeful) that i actually took pride in my salute. and i always thought that others (including E-7s and above) that didn't have sharp salutes made themselves look bad. it's weird...i never really looked at the salute as saying "oh, you're better than me so i have to respect you by saluting you" although some people i knew definitely did. i always saw it more as a time-honored military tradition. that's just me though.

p.s. - as an aside...there is NO better feeling in the world than saluting while hearing the star spangled banner as the flag is being raised on base, or for taps when it is being taken down. it's indescribable really.

[Kretzy]

I also wanted to say that I found this thread incredibly helpful. I've been interested in JAG for a while, and the information here has given me more insight than everywhere else I've checked combined (including the JAG sites online).

Now if we can get rid of DADT sometime soon, I can actually apply.

[CyLaw]

I also wanted to say that I found this thread incredibly helpful. I've been interested in JAG for a while, and the information here has given me more insight than everywhere else I've checked combined (including the JAG sites online).

Now if we can get rid of DADT sometime soon, I can actually apply.

Why don't you help? Check out SLDN

[Paichka]

Oy. This is funny, because people get it wrong all the time. People somehow think that they're saying, "Oh, LT So-and-So is such a jerkoff. I'll let him know what I think of him by withholding my salute. That'll show him."

It's not the PERSON you're saluting. It's the rank, the uniform, and the flag on their shoulder. Oftentimes the person and the rank are interchangeable; I know and have worked for a lot of really great officers. Sometimes the person wearing the rank is a douche. That happens, unfortunately. I still salute and say sir/ma'am when it's warranted, because to do otherwise stains MY honor. It doesn't disrespect them, it disrespects the uniform, and it makes me look like a raging asshole.

That's how I see it, anyway.

[FeuerFrei]

.

[typodragon]

What's the highest rank a JAG can attain? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want a JAG as a 4 star general but can they get to the O-7/O-8 range or is that strictly for combat officers?

I believe _the_ jag is a 3 star general or equivalent. no idea how many total flag officers each corps has though.

[J-Rod]

What's the highest rank a JAG can attain? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want a JAG as a 4 star general but can they get to the O-7/O-8 range or is that strictly for combat officers?

The Judge Advocate General is now a 3-star. There are 4 other 1-star general positions within Army JAG at least.

Congress just made the top JAG a 3-star across the board, so in the Navy it's now Vice Admiral, AF and Marines it is also Lt. General.

The people serving in these positions are there for a reason . . . don't be quick to say you wouldn't want one as a 4-star, plenty of them have been advising General's for years now, and have complex understandings of combat operations. They could do the job, and do it well.

[Patrick Bateman]

What's the highest rank a JAG can attain? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want a JAG as a 4 star general but can they get to the O-7/O-8 range or is that strictly for combat officers?

J-Rod hit it. TJAG for all the services is an 0-9, 3-Star. In Air Force JAG, the Deputy Judge Advocate General (DJAG) is a 2-Star, 0-8 billet. We then have Brigader General billets for the Commander of the AF Legal Operations Agency (AFLOA), the SJA of Air Combat Command/Air Material Command/and at least one other Major Command that is escaping my memory at the moment.

I also don't see the issue with a Judge Advocate 4-Star. The vast majority of 4-Star billets are run by those that come up through the "primary function" specialty of that service: Rated officers in the USAF, Army/Marine Infantry, Surface Warfare in the Navy. That said, there are a number of 3 Stars and some 4-Stars are are the exception to that rule. Air Force 4-Star General Hayden ran the NSA and CIA was an Intelligence Officer his entire career.

[Paichka]

There are a few non-combat branch four star generals, at least in the Army. GEN Anne Dunwoody, for example, who is the first female four star. She's a logistician. I don't see the issue with a four-star JAG or other specialty.

It depends on the billet, though. Not every four-star is going to be a MACOM commander.

[anthonyc7599]

Thought I'd post here as the most appropriate of the military related threads:

Had my retirement ceremony on Friday and it was great. Surreal at times, sad at others, but all in all just a GREAT day. For those staying for the long haul, don't just skulk off without the pomp. You owe it to your family & colleagues/subordinates, but if my case is indicative, it's a fabulous day for you too.

With my uniforms going into storage and the movers coming tomorrow, I can now get a bit excited for school to start in 3 weeks!

Go Navy!!

Just picked up my -214 and discharge cert today. Kinda weird thinking no more Marine Corps. Still debating the reserves, but will at least take a semester to see if it is doable with school. Be nice to have the extra cash though.

[Kretzy]

I also wanted to say that I found this thread incredibly helpful. I've been interested in JAG for a while, and the information here has given me more insight than everywhere else I've checked combined (including the JAG sites online).

Now if we can get rid of DADT sometime soon, I can actually apply.

Why don't you help? Check out SLDN

I have been working with them out in Colorado, and will continue now that I've moved to CT. As soon as I get all of my things moved in and together, they can expect a decent chunk of my volunteer time.

[scott82]

Thought I'd post here as the most appropriate of the military related threads:

Had my retirement ceremony on Friday and it was great. Surreal at times, sad at others, but all in all just a GREAT day. For those staying for the long haul, don't just skulk off without the pomp. You owe it to your family & colleagues/subordinates, but if my case is indicative, it's a fabulous day for you too.

With my uniforms going into storage and the movers coming tomorrow, I can now get a bit excited for school to start in 3 weeks!

Go Navy!!

Just picked up my -214 and discharge cert today. Kinda weird thinking no more Marine Corps. Still debating the reserves, but will at least take a semester to see if it is doable with school. Be nice to have the extra cash though.

If you're planning on starting school as soon as you get out, I recommend filing for unemployment. So long as you are a full time student, you'll get GI Bill + unemployment benefits for the first six months after discharge (though this might vary by state of residence) and you won't have to look for a job. I did this when I was discharged four years ago and I was getting $2400 a month just to go to school. It made the transition back to student life much easier.

[chief915]

Oy. ...

It's not the PERSON you're saluting. It's the rank, the uniform, and the flag on their shoulder. Oftentimes the person and the rank are interchangeable; I know and have worked for a lot of really great officers. Sometimes the person wearing the rank is a douche. That happens, unfortunately. I still salute and say sir/ma'am when it's warranted, because to do otherwise stains MY honor. It doesn't disrespect them, it disrespects the uniform, and it makes me look like a raging asshole.

That's how I see it, anyway.

This is true - I know from having driven onto Air Force Bases in a car that uses the DOD windshield sticker, which indicates my father-in-law's rank (Chief Master Sergeant). Even when it's just me and a dependent in the car and he's not there, the security forces at the gate salute. They are indeed saluting the rank. I see it as them recognizing his achievement, not saluting me or patronizing me, etc. It's a matter of respect for the rank.

[J-Rod]

There are a few non-combat branch four star generals, at least in the Army. GEN Anne Dunwoody, for example, who is the first female four star. She's a logistician. I don't see the issue with a four-star JAG or other specialty.

It depends on the billet, though. Not every four-star is going to be a MACOM commander.

Forgive my ignorance, but does MACOM stand for Major Command?

I know of the 9 multi-service commands, africom, sentcom, socom, etc.

[CyLaw]

Forgive my ignorance, but does MACOM stand for Major Command?

Major Army Command

[anthonyc7599]

Just picked up my -214 and discharge cert today. Kinda weird thinking no more Marine Corps. Still debating the reserves, but will at least take a semester to see if it is doable with school. Be nice to have the extra cash though.

If you're planning on starting school as soon as you get out, I recommend filing for unemployment. So long as you are a full time student, you'll get GI Bill + unemployment benefits for the first six months after discharge (though this might vary by state of residence) and you won't have to look for a job. I did this when I was discharged four years ago and I was getting $2400 a month just to go to school. It made the transition back to student life much easier.

Already there. Filled out the forms as soon as I got home.

[Fujin11]

What exactly do you do in JAG School?

[Paichka]

From the website (LinkRemoved):

Judge Advocate Officer Basic Course (Phase II)
Length: 10.5 weeks (an additional 2 weeks of military orientation is conducted at Fort Lee, Virginia)
Scope: The course emphasizes those areas of military law that are most likely to concern a judge advocate officer in the first duty assignment (first 2 years of service). It provides an introduction to the following areas of military legal practice:

criminal law and procedure
administrative and civil law
legal assistance
fiscal law
international and operational law
Prerequisites: Commissioned officers who are licensed attorneys (members in good standing of a state bar) and who have been appointed in the Judge Advocate General’s Corps.

[alibaba286]

i've read through this thread and gained a lot of useful information--thanks to everyone who has contributed!

i'm going to be a 1L in a few weeks (!) and i've been seriously considering the JAG route. like someone said earlier, usually when i get these ambitious ideas, they kind of fizzle out, but this one has stuck with me for a long while, through several hours of research and consideration.

i'm focusing mainly on navy or coast guard JAG. i need to be near the coasts, both for my sanity and my significant other's job prospects (he works in the marine industry and it would be difficult for him be happily employed in the breadbasket of america).

i feel like the CG route is very different from that of the other branches, because it's so small, DOHS instead of DOD, almost exclusively domestic, etc. that appeals to me in some ways, but i also like what the navy has to offer (based off the website, mostly). i know both are also super-competitive, so i'm trying to keep my options open.

if anyone has any insight or additional information on anything that you think would be useful to me, i'd really appreciate it.

(also, my best friend would like to know, "if you're an army lawyer or whatever, does that mean you have wear like an army suit at my wedding, because my bridesmaids dresses are NOT going to be army suits.")

[iagolives]

i've read through this thread and gained a lot of useful information--thanks to everyone who has contributed!

i'm going to be a 1L in a few weeks (!) and i've been seriously considering the JAG route. like someone said earlier, usually when i get these ambitious ideas, they kind of fizzle out, but this one has stuck with me for a long while, through several hours of research and consideration.

i'm focusing mainly on navy or coast guard JAG. i need to be near the coasts, both for my sanity and my significant other's job prospects (he works in the marine industry and it would be difficult for him be happily employed in the breadbasket of america).

i feel like the CG route is very different from that of the other branches, because it's so small, DOHS instead of DOD, almost exclusively domestic, etc. that appeals to me in some ways, but i also like what the navy has to offer (based off the website, mostly). i know both are also super-competitive, so i'm trying to keep my options open.

if anyone has any insight or additional information on anything that you think would be useful to me, i'd really appreciate it.

(also, my best friend would like to know, "if you're an army lawyer or whatever, does that mean you have wear like an army suit at my wedding, because my bridesmaids dresses are NOT going to be army suits.")

Hey, a few things to consider RE: Coast Guard v. Navy. First of all, in the CG, you are a line officer (there is no JAG corps, per se). Also, you begin in the CG as a full Lieutenant while, again, I believe, the Navy you are a Lieutenant, Junior Grade. This is important because, in the CG, you can be "integrated" into the service at Lieutenant Commander and be assured a retirement. So, basically, if you are promoted once, you can get some sort of retirement. I do not believe this is necessary true with the Navy. Finally, because the CG is exempt from the Posse Comatatus Act et al, you will be doing traditional law enforcement law a lot while in the Navy you will be doing none of that.

This isn't meant to persuade you one way or another, I love both the navy and the Coast Guard. However, maybe just because I've toyed with joining the CG off and on for years, I tend to lean more towards one branch than the other often. They are two very different forces that do very different albeit equally important missions. But, that being said, you will be serving your country either way, so you really can't go wrong! Good luck.

PS: If you decide that full-time service isn't in the cards in the end, you can be a reserve JAG officer in the CG but not in the Navy.

PPS: I found this very interesting, but the CG is the only military service in the US where men and women can serve side-by-side at all duty stations. Because this is a rather important issue to me, I found it very heartening.

[dapoetic1]

i've read through this thread and gained a lot of useful information--thanks to everyone who has contributed!


(also, my best friend would like to know, "if you're an army lawyer or whatever, does that mean you have wear like an army suit at my wedding, because my bridesmaids dresses are NOT going to be army suits.")

Just because you're in the military there is no requirement for you to wear your service dress to civilian functions. Of course, many military personnel do in fact choose to wear their dress uniforms to formal occasions like weddings, on cruise ships, black tie affairs etc. But as long as it's a civilian function you can wear whatever you want.

Just to digress
And as far as the saluting goes--
1) Even at the highest enlisted rank gate guards should not be saluting other enlisted troops. Even as an E-9 no one is required to salute the member.
2) Enlisted personnel don't salute officers because of a power thing. The salute is actually an exchange. The enlisted member or junior officer in the case of two officers of different ranks salutes first and the higher ranking officer returns the salute. The salute started as a way to show an approaching comrade that you are unarmed. A person rendering a salute should do it sharply as should the person returning the salute. Both are signs of respect

[Paichka]

(also, my best friend would like to know, "if you're an army lawyer or whatever, does that mean you have wear like an army suit at my wedding, because my bridesmaids dresses are NOT going to be army suits.")

Tell your best friend that you wouldn't have to wear an "army suit" at her wedding. The only time that you're required to wear your uniform is at official functions.

[amorphousbulge]

Responding to Navy v. CG, in the Navy you are a full LT (0-3) within a year, pretty much automatically. And while promotion is not guaranteed, you do get retirement once you hit 0-4 I believe.

[Patrick Bateman]

i've read through this thread and gained a lot of useful information--thanks to everyone who has contributed!


(also, my best friend would like to know, "if you're an army lawyer or whatever, does that mean you have wear like an army suit at my wedding, because my bridesmaids dresses are NOT going to be army suits.")

Just because you're in the military there is no requirement for you to wear your service dress to civilian functions. Of course, many military personnel do in fact choose to wear their dress uniforms to formal occasions like weddings, on cruise ships, black tie affairs etc. But as long as it's a civilian function you can wear whatever you want.

Just to digress
And as far as the saluting goes--
1) Even at the highest enlisted rank gate guards should not be saluting other enlisted troops. Even as an E-9 no one is required to salute the member.
2) Enlisted personnel don't salute officers because of a power thing. The salute is actually an exchange. The enlisted member or junior officer in the case of two officers of different ranks salutes first and the higher ranking officer returns the salute. The salute started as a way to show an approaching comrade that you are unarmed. A person rendering a salute should do it sharply as should the person returning the salute. Both are signs of respect

You are right that enlisted are not required to salute each other. That said, they are permitted. I've seen NCOs on my base saluting Command Chiefs on multiple occasions. Just like with officers, it is a respect thing, even if it is not mandatory.


And Ali Baba, feel free to inform your friend that it is not a suit. It's a uniform and something one earns the right to wear.

[philip.platt]

Responding to Navy v. CG, in the Navy you are a full LT (0-3) within a year, pretty much automatically. And while promotion is not guaranteed, you do get retirement once you hit 0-4 I believe.

I think you have to have 20 years of service to receive retirement. Some go active for 8 years and do reserves for 12 years, etc.