Military Law Forum

[Keithustus]

I didn't refuse to help anyone. I just successfully tasked you out to prove yourself wrong. Now we have the right answer. There, I just helped everyone.

True, but honey and vinegar apply even in the military, and online, and especially among officers and those here still aspiring to become officers. It's a repeated game: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeated_game

One thing you should know about our profession is that you should always be looking up the facts and answers for yourself, to the extent possible, before relying on the words of others, reliable or unreliable.... you'll notice that most of us qualify our statements with "in my experience" or "I've heard" or links to the resources from which we get our information, as you have just done...

Yes, that all makes sense, thanks. The trouble I had was feeling confronted about my qualified assertions as if I had been stating them as fact. (But such is certainly at least partially my fault for being less in practice in doing so than most of you here.)

[Patrick Bateman]

For the aspiring Air Force JAGs on the thread, I thought this could be an educational read:

http://www.afjag.af.mil/shared/media/do ... 06-067.pdf

Hat tip to mejag on the AirForceOTS forum for finding this.

[Young Marino]

For the aspiring Air Force JAGs on the thread, I thought this could be an educational read:

http://www.afjag.af.mil/shared/media/do ... 06-067.pdf

Hat tip to mejag on the AirForceOTS forum for finding this.

Great find Patrick. Already seems like a great read.

[Pdk7]

On a similar note, both the Army and AF are requesting a score report for my LSAT. AF request for documentation is pretty self explanatory. But I've read the instructions several times for the Army and I'm still not clear exactly which doc they want. Do they want the Item Response Report? Or something different? I already called them the other day with questions about transcripts, so I don't want to be that guy that bugs them all the time with simple questions if I can help it. Anybody know what they want?

Before I call them again, anybody have an answer to this re: Army LSAT documentation?

Unless they changed it, no. I did both the intern and AD applications and I just remember there being a question asking for an LSAT score. Nothing more. I didn't submit any sort of special paper work either.

[howell]

Has anyone here done an unpaid internship with the Air Force or know how offices set those up? It seems to be up to the SJA, but I was wondering if anyone had any insight or experience into how an office would jump through the expected hoops - background check/security clearance, network access, base access, etc. - without going through the official paid internship program. A lot of it will be up to each installation and will have to be worked by the SJA, but I'm just trying to avoid reinventing the wheel if this comes up as a legitimate possibility.

Also, watching a round of DAPpers come through has been educational. It's amazing the things that some of the interviewees don't have in order. Getting experience with a base legal office or the military in general would give a lot of applicants a huge step up in not being a disaster.

[womeninblack]

Has anyone here done an unpaid internship with the Air Force or know how offices set those up? It seems to be up to the SJA, but I was wondering if anyone had any insight or experience into how an office would jump through the expected hoops - background check/security clearance, network access, base access, etc. - without going through the official paid internship program. A lot of it will be up to each installation and will have to be worked by the SJA, but I'm just trying to avoid reinventing the wheel if this comes up as a legitimate possibility.

Also, watching a round of DAPpers come through has been educational. It's amazing the things that some of the interviewees don't have in order. Getting experience with a base legal office or the military in general would give a lot of applicants a huge step up in not being a disaster.

What types of things have you seen this round of DAP applicants do that future DAP applicants should avoid? I have an interview coming up.

[spleenworship]

Has anyone here done an unpaid internship with the Air Force or know how offices set those up? It seems to be up to the SJA, but I was wondering if anyone had any insight or experience into how an office would jump through the expected hoops - background check/security clearance, network access, base access, etc. - without going through the official paid internship program. A lot of it will be up to each installation and will have to be worked by the SJA, but I'm just trying to avoid reinventing the wheel if this comes up as a legitimate possibility.

Also, watching a round of DAPpers come through has been educational. It's amazing the things that some of the interviewees don't have in order. Getting experience with a base legal office or the military in general would give a lot of applicants a huge step up in not being a disaster.

What types of things have you seen this round of DAP applicants do that future DAP applicants should avoid? I have an interview coming up.

I wouldn't mind seeing the answer to this to figure out if I did any big no-no's at my interview....

[Young Marino]

Has anyone here done an unpaid internship with the Air Force or know how offices set those up? It seems to be up to the SJA, but I was wondering if anyone had any insight or experience into how an office would jump through the expected hoops - background check/security clearance, network access, base access, etc. - without going through the official paid internship program. A lot of it will be up to each installation and will have to be worked by the SJA, but I'm just trying to avoid reinventing the wheel if this comes up as a legitimate possibility.

Also, watching a round of DAPpers come through has been educational. It's amazing the things that some of the interviewees don't have in order. Getting experience with a base legal office or the military in general would give a lot of applicants a huge step up in not being a disaster.

[/quote]


I don't know about other bases but at the base I was trying to do this at, it was not up to the SJA. It seems almost every base has an informal volunteer program where people can request where they want to volunteer and it all goes through the folks who run that program. From my understanding, the bigger the base the easier it is to get in. The base I was trying to do this at did not have a volunteer program so I couldn't get the position even though the SJA was saying that she could have really used my help. She seemed as disappointed as I was that it didn't work out. It is a smaller base though so like I said, one of the larger bases will probably be better for you but don't take my word for it . That was my lone experience in trying to volunteer at a base

[minnie7]

1.What's the salary for a 1st year Jag officer? Does it increase the more years you work. How easy/hard would it be to pay off a 200k loan in the 4 years you commit?
2. What are some of the differences within the military branches as far as a) the type of work you do b)how likely you are to see combat c)PT requirements

[Keithustus]

b)how likely you are to see combat

JAGs? Ha. Pretty much the only folks less likely to see "combat" than JAGs* are chaplains. Most JAGs very rarely leave their duty location, aka desk in a staff headquarters.

"Combat" = direct enemy fire and/or close-quarters fighting.
Indirect fire? That's pretty much everyone on the ground.
IEDs and other ambushes? That's pretty much everyone on the ground outside FOBs. So if the JAG has to ride around a lot to conduct meetings or whatnot, then yes, certainly possible. But no JAG will typically be on a mission to conduct offensive operations. Certain Stability Operations missions, possibly.

*Does not necessarily apply to USMC JAGs.

[mlittle5]

I was doing some Googling recently, and I came across a very interesting PDF regarding the Navy JAG selection process:

http://www.jag.navy.mil/library/instruc ... 150-1C.pdf

The most interesting part I found is on page 17. Apparently your LSAT score and your Structured Interview "score" are the only factors that really matter. It seems they use the two to create a Composite Multiple, which is then used to sift through applicants on a numerical basis. The "Whole Person" concept doesn't even apply unless you make it past this first cut. I understand their curiosity about my LSAT score, but I never thought it would have so much sway at this point.

[howell]

Also, watching a round of DAPpers come through has been educational. It's amazing the things that some of the interviewees don't have in order. Getting experience with a base legal office or the military in general would give a lot of applicants a huge step up in not being a disaster.

What types of things have you seen this round of DAP applicants do that future DAP applicants should avoid? I have an interview coming up.

I wouldn't mind seeing the answer to this to figure out if I did any big no-no's at my interview....

Off the top of my head, from different applicants: obviously over the weight regs (and no drop in weight since the last interview). unshaven, crazy haircut, sloppily dressed, can't put together an answer of why they want to be a JAG, no idea of the difference between enlisted and officers, no idea how to show respect to an interviewer (let alone how to indicate that one could muster respect for a superior officer if selected), sloppy packages, showing up late, no concern about submitting anything optional, self-picture is less clear than bigfoot pictures.

The link Bateman posted above lays out that there were over 1400 applications for ~95 positions in the AF JAG Corps during 2012. That's less than a 6.8% selection rate. Sure, there are probably a lot of packages from people like I described above that will get weeded out quickly, but there are a lot of very qualified people applying for these jobs. Don't give them any reason to weed you out. This isn't a job where you're going to go use your OCI interviewing skills to get the job. You have to show through your entire resume that this is what you want, and if the SJA were to tell you you're selected and starting next week, your attitude would be "Fuck yeah; let's go." SJAs can sniff this kind of stuff out miles away. The interview can't guarantee you a spot, but it can certainly rule it out.

[howell]

I don't know about other bases but at the base I was trying to do this at, it was not up to the SJA. It seems almost every base has an informal volunteer program where people can request where they want to volunteer and it all goes through the folks who run that program. From my understanding, the bigger the base the easier it is to get in. The base I was trying to do this at did not have a volunteer program so I couldn't get the position even though the SJA was saying that she could have really used my help. She seemed as disappointed as I was that it didn't work out. It is a smaller base though so like I said, one of the larger bases will probably be better for you but don't take my word for it . That was my lone experience in trying to volunteer at a base

Thanks for this. Would you mind sharing which base this was at (by PM would be fine)? I'm just trying to get some ideas for how this could be put into place at a base without a thriving intern program.

[Patrick Bateman]

1.What's the salary for a 1st year Jag officer? Does it increase the more years you work. How easy/hard would it be to pay off a 200k loan in the 4 years you commit?
2. What are some of the differences within the military branches as far as a) the type of work you do b)how likely you are to see combat c)PT requirements

These are all questions you can easily answer with a little bit of The Google and/or are already discussed within this thread.

[Esquire]

1.What's the salary for a 1st year Jag officer? Does it increase the more years you work. How easy/hard would it be to pay off a 200k loan in the 4 years you commit?
2. What are some of the differences within the military branches as far as a) the type of work you do b)how likely you are to see combat c)PT requirements

[Rotor]

1.What's the salary for a 1st year Jag officer? Does it increase the more years you work. How easy/hard would it be to pay off a 200k loan in the 4 years you commit?
2. What are some of the differences within the military branches as far as a) the type of work you do b)how likely you are to see combat c)PT requirements

What? You don't think someone grossing ~48k per year in base pay can make loan payments of ~54k per year? Dude, that's what BAH/BAS is for!

Now, Minnie, if you meant "make monthly payments on 200k for 4 years" your payments are going to be close to 2k/month. After taxes, your base pay will be about 3k. But you would have housing allowance to help out and health benefits, so you could do it. But to have any capacity for Saving for a Rainy Day and having a modicum of disposable income, you should also use IBR/LRAP as much as you can.

Warning: these are rough, ballpark estimates. You should budget using your own actual numbers accordingly.

[bouakedojo]

Has anyone here done an unpaid internship with the Air Force or know how offices set those up? It seems to be up to the SJA, but I was wondering if anyone had any insight or experience into how an office would jump through the expected hoops - background check/security clearance, network access, base access, etc. - without going through the official paid internship program. A lot of it will be up to each installation and will have to be worked by the SJA, but I'm just trying to avoid reinventing the wheel if this comes up as a legitimate possibility.

Also, watching a round of DAPpers come through has been educational. It's amazing the things that some of the interviewees don't have in order. Getting experience with a base legal office or the military in general would give a lot of applicants a huge step up in not being a disaster.

I'm in class right now, but I will pm you my experience in the next couple of days. I've interned for 9 months at a large base legal office and most of a summer at an ADC, both unpaid and set up by me.

[run1t0ut]

Hey all. Thanks for the wealth of knowledge here. I have a few questions about what happens after you go to officer school before JAG school and then your first tour, esp. w/ the sequestration going on. I'm sorry if it's been discussed already. It's a bit tough to find what I'm specifically looking for under the present circumstances. Having gone through about 50 pages of this topic, I now realize how little I know, and the longevity of this topic is impressive!

I received my recommendation from the Oct. 2012 Navy Board in December. I finally got approval and will be taking the oath next Tuesday. My tentative date for ODS is in November.

1. How/when is your date for NJS determined?

2. How/when is your first tour determined?

3. It seems like b/c of the sequestration people are being deferred. Is that deferral date related to JAG school or officer school or the first tour?

4. Should I be looking for a job to fill in the gap? I originally expected the gap to be less than 6 months and so planned to either volunteer or take care of my father who is disabled, but it seems like maybe I should look for something more long term?

5. When is it too late to back out/what would it take to leave? I'm pretty determined to be a JAG, but my parents are not the most supportive of this career choice and I guess oddly enough this information is what they want for reassurance.

What I'm primarily looking for is information regarding the timeline after taking the oath, especially with the sequestration, so any information you can share would be amazing.

Apologies for being particularly clueless. My life has been rather interesting in very unfortunate ways for the past 10 months and I honestly just put my head down to get stuff down. I'm just now dipping my toes into what JAG entails (outside of the basics) for me and my family. I'm also happy to share my stats and my experiences in applying for JAG if anyone wants to know.

I am not in the accessions office and have no official word on what impact, if any, sequestration is having on the Navy JAG corps. I am a bit puzzled because sequestration only affects civilians, not uniformed personnel. I had not heard of any delays due to sequestration, but I may be ignorant.

Have you talked to the accessions officer? The LCDR will have the most up to date information. Regarding your first duty station, in years past the accessions officer has called each individual and asked where he or she would like to be stationed. Provided there is an opening, the AO will do the best to accomodate you. You should know where you are going prior to starting Naval Justice School. As for "dropping out", once you take your oath you are in and it is much more difficult to get out. Prior to the oath, it is easy.

I cannot answer your other questions and do not want to speculate.

Naval officer here.

Everyone submits a dream sheet for where they want to end up. Those with rank/prior service (LEP, lateral transfers) get first dibs. People with a spouse in the service get priority too. With no prior service, you get last dibs on where you'll go. Say with with me: "Needs of the Navy." They always come first.

You'll class up when they have a spot for you. Welcome to another thing you'll become used to in the military: "Hurry up and wait."

I think you can back out anytime before you take your oath. I wouldn't recommend it. You have a job; that's more than a lot of people. Congrats and welcome to the greatest Navy in the world!

Hi,
Thanks for the reply. Not exactly what I'm looking for so I'll try to clarify.

Basically I've heard from various people (JAGS, officers) that 1) duty stations are first come first serve; 2) your duty station is selected based on your ODS date (i.e. the earlier your ODS date the better); 3) your duty station is selected based on your bar result date release (i.e. the earlier your release date the better); 4) the selection of your duty station can be affected by your performance at NJS, which would mean that your duty station location is determined at the end of your time at NJS, not ODS, 5) duty station selection is such a crapshoot, you should just put your dream choices as your preferences don't really matter.

Since my information is... confusing, any clarification would be much appreciated.

As to the sequestration, I ask because I know someone who is on the waitlist to get called-up to active duty and thought it was implied that this delay was due to the sequestration and the accompanying budget cuts. I was wondering how soon we would be deployed after our completion of NJS or if it was likely that those selected in boards occurring after the sequestration went into effect would be put in some kind of waiting list.

Finally, as to being able to separate after taking the oath, is the only means via the honorable, less than honorable discharge path? I had heard that there was some kind of administrative discharge (like the discharge if you don't pass the bar after 2 chances), but would like to know for curiosity's sake what processes are available after the oath is taken. If anyone can point me to a resource where I can look this up myself, thank you! I don't want to waste anyone's time.

Best,

[Rotor]

Hey all. Thanks for the wealth of knowledge here. I have a few questions about what happens after you go to officer school before JAG school and then your first tour, esp. w/ the sequestration going on. I'm sorry if it's been discussed already. It's a bit tough to find what I'm specifically looking for under the present circumstances. Having gone through about 50 pages of this topic, I now realize how little I know, and the longevity of this topic is impressive!

I received my recommendation from the Oct. 2012 Navy Board in December. I finally got approval and will be taking the oath next Tuesday. My tentative date for ODS is in November.

1. How/when is your date for NJS determined?

2. How/when is your first tour determined?

3. It seems like b/c of the sequestration people are being deferred. Is that deferral date related to JAG school or officer school or the first tour?

4. Should I be looking for a job to fill in the gap? I originally expected the gap to be less than 6 months and so planned to either volunteer or take care of my father who is disabled, but it seems like maybe I should look for something more long term?

5. When is it too late to back out/what would it take to leave? I'm pretty determined to be a JAG, but my parents are not the most supportive of this career choice and I guess oddly enough this information is what they want for reassurance.

What I'm primarily looking for is information regarding the timeline after taking the oath, especially with the sequestration, so any information you can share would be amazing.

Apologies for being particularly clueless. My life has been rather interesting in very unfortunate ways for the past 10 months and I honestly just put my head down to get stuff down. I'm just now dipping my toes into what JAG entails (outside of the basics) for me and my family. I'm also happy to share my stats and my experiences in applying for JAG if anyone wants to know.

I am not in the accessions office and have no official word on what impact, if any, sequestration is having on the Navy JAG corps. I am a bit puzzled because sequestration only affects civilians, not uniformed personnel. I had not heard of any delays due to sequestration, but I may be ignorant.

Have you talked to the accessions officer? The LCDR will have the most up to date information. Regarding your first duty station, in years past the accessions officer has called each individual and asked where he or she would like to be stationed. Provided there is an opening, the AO will do the best to accomodate you. You should know where you are going prior to starting Naval Justice School. As for "dropping out", once you take your oath you are in and it is much more difficult to get out. Prior to the oath, it is easy.

I cannot answer your other questions and do not want to speculate.

Naval officer here.

Everyone submits a dream sheet for where they want to end up. Those with rank/prior service (LEP, lateral transfers) get first dibs. People with a spouse in the service get priority too. With no prior service, you get last dibs on where you'll go. Say with with me: "Needs of the Navy." They always come first.

You'll class up when they have a spot for you. Welcome to another thing you'll become used to in the military: "Hurry up and wait."

I think you can back out anytime before you take your oath. I wouldn't recommend it. You have a job; that's more than a lot of people. Congrats and welcome to the greatest Navy in the world!

Hi,
Thanks for the reply. Not exactly what I'm looking for so I'll try to clarify.

Basically I've heard from various people (JAGS, officers) that 1) duty stations are first come first serve; 2) your duty station is selected based on your ODS date (i.e. the earlier your ODS date the better); 3) your duty station is selected based on your bar result date release (i.e. the earlier your release date the better); 4) the selection of your duty station can be affected by your performance at NJS, which would mean that your duty station location is determined at the end of your time at NJS, not ODS, 5) duty station selection is such a crapshoot, you should just put your dream choices as your preferences don't really matter.

Since my information is... confusing, any clarification would be much appreciated.

As to the sequestration, I ask because I know someone who is on the waitlist to get called-up to active duty and thought it was implied that this delay was due to the sequestration and the accompanying budget cuts. I was wondering how soon we would be deployed after our completion of NJS or if it was likely that those selected in boards occurring after the sequestration went into effect would be put in some kind of waiting list.

Finally, as to being able to separate after taking the oath, is the only means via the honorable, less than honorable discharge path? I had heard that there was some kind of administrative discharge (like the discharge if you don't pass the bar after 2 chances), but would like to know for curiosity's sake what processes are available after the oath is taken. If anyone can point me to a resource where I can look this up myself, thank you! I don't want to waste anyone's time.

Best,

I can talk to assignments in general, not necessarily to post NJS assignments, but I don't suppose it is much different.

As mentioned above the key phrase is "needs of the Navy." The detailers will try to fill everyone's #1 request on the dream sheet, but only to the point that there are billets available. Some billets are also given priority to be filled for various reasons and if no one has that job on their list, someone will get drafted to fill it.

As for the "first come, first served" there is a kernel of truth to it, but it's not as free wheeling as the expression makes it sound. Needs of the Navy will still win out. And it's more for pipeline selections than individual job assignments (because job assignments are 1:1 replacements based on when the predecessor is leaving). But, because some programs are managed on a fiscal year basis, if you're trying to get a slot in October-- all of the slots will be available. If you're looking in August/September, it's likely to be filled (or close to it). Happened to me in my aviation pipeline selection-- selected in August and only the #1 guy in the class got to fly jets, everyone else got assigned to helicopters. (Best darned choice the Navy ever made for me!) Two months later, they were back to taking dozens into the jet pipeline (until someone realized it was oversubscribed and turned off the faucet again).

Apologies for the long post, but I didn't have the time to write a shorter one. [insert one of several apocryphal attributions to famous people here]

[Fed_Atty]

The good Commander's response is accurate. Your performance at NJS has no impact on your orders. Everyone gets a non observed FITREP out of NJS. If you do well in certain evolutions it will be a bullet on your FITREP, but it really doesn't matter. Your performance during your first tour can set you up for a better second tour and so on.

[RaleighStClair]

Hey folks,

I'm a 2L and I am interviewing with the Army JAG tomorrow at our school's OCI. The description on Symplicity was very vague, but I believe it's for the summer program. It's a 30 minute interview.

Does anyone have any tips for a successful interview? I know it's very competitive.

Thanks!

[Young Marino]

A few questions for Air Force JAGs: Is it quite common for someone to do an unpaid internship 1L summer then move on to a paid internship 2L summer? Are you looked at differently by selection boards if you did an unpaid vs paid internship? Is it even worth it to do the internships both 1L and 2L summers or is one enough even if both are unpaid?

[Fujin11]

I have an OCI interview with Army JAG on monday. I am also significantly outside what the military considers acceptable weight standards (read: I'm a fatboy). Should I cancel to avoid wasting the time of the fine gentleperson slated interview me or should I roll the dice?

[spleenworship]

I have an OCI interview with Army JAG on monday. I am also significantly outside what the military considers acceptable weight standards (read: I'm a fatboy). Should I cancel to avoid wasting the time of the fine gentleperson slated interview me or should I roll the dice?

You have very little to lose. I'd do it. Also, maybe you can convince him you'll lose the weight in time? Like, are you a 2L? Also, how "significantly" are we talking about?

[erik_1717]

I have an OCI interview with Army JAG on monday. I am also significantly outside what the military considers acceptable weight standards (read: I'm a fatboy). Should I cancel to avoid wasting the time of the fine gentleperson slated interview me or should I roll the dice?

You have very little to lose. I'd do it. Also, maybe you can convince him you'll lose the weight in time? Like, are you a 2L? Also, how "significantly" are we talking about?

I'd say go for it too. As long as you're not something ridiculous, you could almost try to springboard the interview into the proactive actions you have taken and how far you've come in physically preparing. That is, assuming you have been trying to get physically ready. If not, that's fine, but I would suggest starting to work out to get ready if you are serious about this. I'm not an interviewer so I can't say what he/she will think, but I'm willing to bet they will take note if you seem out of shape. Thus, coming forward with concrete evidence that you have been working out(or have a plan to get in shape) may help show your dedication to getting accepted.

I'm not saying that you should say something like "Yeah, I've been working out and eating healthy....". I'm thinking something more along the lines of, "Since I've decided I want this career path, I started this workout routine to get myself in the best possible shape for the program." And then list the daily workout routine that you follow.

As I said, I'm no interviewer, but it seems like the best way to address a problem that may be obvious is to take it head on and show how you're improving/planning to improve.