Military Law Forum

[CyLaw]

Congrats. As having stood in many a retirement ceremony, including for my father, I agree that it is very important for the subordinates. It made me proud to serve under certain people to hear the stories of what they did before I met them.

Just don't do the pass in review, that just sucks for everyone

[Rotor]

Congrats. [portions deleted]

Just don't do the pass in review, that just sucks for everyone

Thx!!
I had chairs for my troops too...I stood in ranks and hated it too many times to ask them to do the same. Even so, being on the deck of a ship in a summer Virginia sun can be brutal enough but we had a decent day-- a nice breeze even. Worked out all around.

[J-Rod]

It will definitely be something you'll have to address. It was a long time ago, but you'll have to stress that it was a different time in your life, and that issues like that are NOT a factor at all in your life anymore, and that you are not going to let those things happen again.

It isn't going to help you, but when you interview for a commission, if you can do a good job of demonstrating to your appraiser that you are a different person now, it shouldn't hurt you too much.

[J-Rod]

And congrats Rotor! Glad to hear it went well. I attended a retirement ceremony this past week as well. It was a guy I worked with this summer. He was Army obviously, but had originally been a Marine, and did a service transfer after being diagnosed with cancer. He beat it twice, had many a medal to his name, and it was very moving. Best of luck to you and your adventures in law school! I interview with the Navy as part of my commission application in 2 weeks!

The next day we had an award ceremony for seven officers leaving my department, so that was nice and long, but still cool.

And this week, the general I work across the hall from was nominated to be the new TJAG of the Army, so we had a "wetting down" for that as well. A big week here at the JAG school.

[Patrick Bateman]

bump

Bumping after 2 hours? Patience is a virtue that will serve you well in uniform.

My answer is the same as Rotors'. All of that obviously hurts your application but how the interviewing SJA and the accessions board see it is anyone's guess. Give it a shot and go from there.

[Patrick Bateman]

Thought I'd post here as the most appropriate of the military related threads:

Had my retirement ceremony on Friday and it was great. Surreal at times, sad at others, but all in all just a GREAT day. For those staying for the long haul, don't just skulk off without the pomp. You owe it to your family & colleagues/subordinates, but if my case is indicative, it's a fabulous day for you too.

With my uniforms going into storage and the movers coming tomorrow, I can now get a bit excited for school to start in 3 weeks!

Go Navy!!

Congratulations. We all owe you quite a debt.

[Rotor]

Thx JRod & PB.

JRod, good luck on the interview! Quite a week for your office.

PB, you'll have to hold down the fort in this thread until I get set up out in CA. Try not to brainwash everyone into the USAF. jk of course.

[iagolives]

Thought I'd post here as the most appropriate of the military related threads:

Had my retirement ceremony on Friday and it was great. Surreal at times, sad at others, but all in all just a GREAT day. For those staying for the long haul, don't just skulk off without the pomp. You owe it to your family & colleagues/subordinates, but if my case is indicative, it's a fabulous day for you too.

With my uniforms going into storage and the movers coming tomorrow, I can now get a bit excited for school to start in 3 weeks!

Go Navy!!

Thanks for everything you did for this country and good luck at law school (Berkeley I'm assuming; congrats!)

And Go Navy!

[ahong2baseball]

Hi I'm applying to law school during the next cycle, and I've gathered some interest with life in the military after law school. Being an Asian-American, I was wondering about the diversity within JAG officers.

[Yointer]

Hi I'm applying to law school during the next cycle, and I've gathered some interest with life in the military after law school. Being an Asian-American, I was wondering about the diversity within JAG officers.

From what I've observed this summer, JAG is reasonably racially diverse. The majority of JAGs are definitely white, but that is only to be expected in light of the high percentage of lawyers who are white. I think you'll find that the racial composition of the JAG Corps is similar to that of, say, law school graduates from the past 10 years. Again, this is just anecdotal evidence and should not be construed to statistically represent the JAG community at large.

The two areas in which JAG is not very diverse are gender and sexual orientation diversity. While women comprise almost half of law school graduates these days, I estimate only about 20% of the JAGs I have met are women. As anyone familiar with the military knows, the entire organization is a bit male-heavy. On the plus side, I have never observed any sort of disrespect or insubordination directed at a JAG because of her gender. Female JAGs, according to my observations, are treated the same as their male counterparts of the same rank.

As for sexual orientation, the military openly discriminates against individuals who engage in homosexual sex practices. In theory, you could join the military as a homosexual and simply refrain from having sex during your service. I imagine that doing so would range from extremely unpleasant to impossible and for that reason I recommend that homosexuals avoid working for the military, at least until Obama makes good on his promise to end don't ask don't tell. I'm not holding my breath.

[mochafury]

I'm a 0L who, after reading some cursory information and watching the TV show, is interested in JAG (just to demonstrate my current lack of knowledge). How does the program work exactly? I know there are two ways to get in, direct and lateral, but then what?

Do you undergo basic training? How likely is a combat-zone posting? Also, what's the exit strategy? Is a military career your primary option, or do lots of JAGs do 4 years and then chill at some biglaw or government job?

I'd like to know more. I have ZERO military background in my family/friends, but JAG does interest me.

[patrickd139]

I'm a 0L who, after reading some cursory information and watching the TV show, is interested in JAG (just to demonstrate my current lack of knowledge). How does the program work exactly? I know there are two ways to get in, direct and lateral, but then what?

Do you undergo basic training? How likely is a combat-zone posting? Also, what's the exit strategy? Is a military career your primary option, or do lots of JAGs do 4 years and then chill at some biglaw or government job?

I'd like to know more. I have ZERO military background in my family/friends, but JAG does interest me.

Not to sound too harsh, but a question and then a caveat.

First the question: have you read through this entire thread? There is excellent information here which answers all of your questions, I believe. Except the "exit strategy" question. Which leads me to the caveat: we are (mainly) 0L's and law students on this forum, with the exception of PatrickBateman and very few others, to my knowledge. While some are currently in the military, or have served, my hunch is that not many of us are going to know the percentage of JAG officers who go biglaw are.

[Patrick Bateman]

I'm a 0L who, after reading some cursory information and watching the TV show, is interested in JAG (just to demonstrate my current lack of knowledge). How does the program work exactly? I know there are two ways to get in, direct and lateral, but then what?

Do you undergo basic training? How likely is a combat-zone posting? Also, what's the exit strategy? Is a military career your primary option, or do lots of JAGs do 4 years and then chill at some biglaw or government job?

I'd like to know more. I have ZERO military background in my family/friends, but JAG does interest me.

I have to second Patrick's response. Read and digest all the previous posts. I doubt you will have any lingering "basic" type questions after that as the thread goes into some detail for Air Force and Navy, with some more Army posts now that J-Rod has the internship under his belt.

[J-Rod]

I concur. Read the thread. I know it's up to 19 pages now, but it's a good read. I've gone back through it before to get information.

I do know a considerable amount about the Army now. I'm also going through the application process for the Navy as we speak, so I can answer questions about that as well.

Just pop back up after reading the whole thread and we'll be more than happy to help.

[Fujin11]

I have a question I'm not sure if you JAG folks are at liberty to answer but do you find that since you are professional staff and don't often see armed conflict as opposed to like line infantry do you find that you're looked down upon by more seasoned combat veterans. such as those combat veterans feeling you're not deserving of your rank so on and so forth.

I only ask because my step father served in the navy special forces and he said (even though he was an NCO) if an officer from say the JAG or the medical tried to order him around or yell at him he'd laugh and walk away.

(then again he has told me stories about his fair share of disciplinary so this may be him and not the majority view)

[dapoetic1]

I have a question I'm not sure if you JAG folks are at liberty to answer but do you find that since you are professional staff and don't often see armed conflict as opposed to like line infantry do you find that you're looked down upon by more seasoned combat veterans. such as those combat veterans feeling you're not deserving of your rank so on and so forth.

I only ask because my step father served in the navy special forces and he said (even though he was an NCO) if an officer from say the JAG or the medical tried to order him around or yell at him he'd laugh and walk away.

(then again he has told me stories about his fair share of disciplinary so this may be him and not the majority view)

I will tell you as someone that has been in a combat zone--and serves with folks that have never deployed or are strictly office personnel I would never disrespect someone for doing their job. Any enlisted person worth their rank no matter how low should certainly go back and read their enlistment statement. There is no caveat to only follow the order of the officers appointed over them (if they've served in combat situations). Granted non-line officers definitely undergo a very different type of training but so what. They're commissioned officers and deserve the respect. I assure you an article 15 from a JAG for insubordination is just as much of a career killer as one from Capt. Infrantry
I hope those statements are untrue and just standard locker-room type banter.

[the lantern]

I have a question I'm not sure if you JAG folks are at liberty to answer but do you find that since you are professional staff and don't often see armed conflict as opposed to like line infantry do you find that you're looked down upon by more seasoned combat veterans. such as those combat veterans feeling you're not deserving of your rank so on and so forth.

I only ask because my step father served in the navy special forces and he said (even though he was an NCO) if an officer from say the JAG or the medical tried to order him around or yell at him he'd laugh and walk away.

(then again he has told me stories about his fair share of disciplinary so this may be him and not the majority view)

I am prior enlisted (hoping to maybe be a JAG after school) and I don't think this scenario is very likely at all. An officer is an officer no matter what, and that type of behavior would definitely be dealt with harshly by anyone with a spine. With that being said, I don't think anyone (especially an officer, especially a medical/jag officer) is going to be yelling at someone for no reason, that kind of stuff just doesn't happen. I was in the Marines, so it might be different in other branches, but if anyone (even senior Marines who don't know you) saw you do something like that to an officer (regardless of specialty), you would be getting yourself into some serious shit. I have friends who were in combat and they don't treat any of us different who never saw combat. People understand the difference between combat and combat support, and that both are necessary for a successful fighting force. This isn't to say that you don't get your fair share of shit from the guys who are out in the field all the time, but they can give it to you because they dodge bullets for a living (and it is semi-joking anyways). I think your dad might be a little old school, because behavior like that probably did exist at some point. Nowadays the military is very professional and conduct like that simply isn't tolerated.

[J-Rod]

I have a question I'm not sure if you JAG folks are at liberty to answer but do you find that since you are professional staff and don't often see armed conflict as opposed to like line infantry do you find that you're looked down upon by more seasoned combat veterans. such as those combat veterans feeling you're not deserving of your rank so on and so forth.

I only ask because my step father served in the navy special forces and he said (even though he was an NCO) if an officer from say the JAG or the medical tried to order him around or yell at him he'd laugh and walk away.

(then again he has told me stories about his fair share of disciplinary so this may be him and not the majority view)

This is dangerous water. If you are looked down upon, then that officer probably looks down on everyone below him in rank, not just JAG's. If you are a Capt. or 1LT in the JAGC and are good at what you do, you will be respected. The fact is, those commanders know that they need their JAG's, a lot. Show your respect do them, do your job, and they will respect you.

As for NCO's, especially higher ranked ones, you need to treat them with respect as well. They must understand that technically you are their superior in rank, but that doesn't mean treat them that way. Listen to them. They often have a lot of experience, and valuable knowledge that young JAGs can learn from.

As for your relative laughing in their face and walking away . . . orders are orders. Doesn't matter if you are a CSM, CPO, E8 or higher, if a commissioned officer gives you an order and you laugh in their face and ignore it, you're going to get disciplined. One needs to be wise enough and perceptive enough to know when to ask a favor, seek advice, or give an order.

Everyone I work with here treats the O-6 and the General with respect, and in turn, they do the same, from the O-5's down to the 1LT JAG's and enlisted privates, NCO's etc. My office, as an intern is across the hall from the General(who was just nominated to be The Judge Advocate General, a 3-Star) and he regularly stops in my office, asks me how I'm doing, what I think about certain things, etc. Not that he would ever do anything I say, haha, but that mutual respect is there.

[brownshoe]

I have a question I'm not sure if you JAG folks are at liberty to answer but do you find that since you are professional staff and don't often see armed conflict as opposed to like line infantry do you find that you're looked down upon by more seasoned combat veterans. such as those combat veterans feeling you're not deserving of your rank so on and so forth.

I only ask because my step father served in the navy special forces and he said (even though he was an NCO) if an officer from say the JAG or the medical tried to order him around or yell at him he'd laugh and walk away.

(then again he has told me stories about his fair share of disciplinary so this may be him and not the majority view)

I was a line officer in the Navy and am a soon-to-be JAG. Look, I've NEVER seen an officer randomly yelling at people or ordering people around for no reason. There is definitely a Hollywood image out there about how people interact in the military. As others have said in this thread, people are generally very professional - I never once saw anyone laugh in the face of a superior (behind their back is another story).

[Fujin11]

I didn't necessarily mean to construe the image of someone yelling at someone else for no reason I was just curious if there is a "rank is rank" across the board or if there was a kind of locker room camaraderie between combat personnel (as the latter is the impression I get from my step-father).

That being said my step-father is in his 50's now so he very well may be old school, he's had his fair share of court marshalls (Courts Marshall?) (according to his stories) and since he was in the submarine corps I doubt he had many extended interactions with these types of officers except when he had to.

I'm sorry if my comments offended anyone or construed the wrong image I've been at work for 10 hours and my mind is fried.

Thank you all for your responses they greatly appreciated.

Edit: Spelling

[J-Rod]

I didn't necessarily mean to construe the image of someone yelling at someone else for no reason I was just curious if there is a "rank is rank" across the board or if there was a kind of locker room camaraderie between combat personnel (as the latter is the impression I get from my step-father).

That being said my step-father is in his 50's now so he very well may be old school, he's had his fair share of court marshalls (Courts Marshall?) (according to his stories) and since he was in the submarine corps I doubt he had many extended interactions with these types of officers except when he had to.

I'm sorry if my comments offended anyone or construed the wrong image I've been at work for 10 hours and my mind is fried.

Thank you all for your responses they greatly appreciated.

Edit: Spelling

That mutual respect and and locker room atmosphere is usually there, but at the end of the day, one still has to salute the other.

[Patrick Bateman]

I have a question I'm not sure if you JAG folks are at liberty to answer but do you find that since you are professional staff and don't often see armed conflict as opposed to like line infantry do you find that you're looked down upon by more seasoned combat veterans. such as those combat veterans feeling you're not deserving of your rank so on and so forth.

I only ask because my step father served in the navy special forces and he said (even though he was an NCO) if an officer from say the JAG or the medical tried to order him around or yell at him he'd laugh and walk away.

(then again he has told me stories about his fair share of disciplinary so this may be him and not the majority view)

Couple of asides
- Navy SEALs and Special Boat Units are Special Operations Forces (SOF), not Special Forces. Special Forces refers to Army Special Forces (SF), the Green Berets. Special Forces are a part of the greater Special Operations Forces which also includes the Rangers and 160th SOAR on the Army Side, Force Reconnaissance units in USMC, Combat Controllers & Pararescue (PJs) in USAF, etc. This gets mixed up all the time but I just thought I would point it out.
- Courts Martial is the plural for a court martial. That said, even JAG 0-5s and 0-6s slip up with the "court martials." I hear it all the time here. It really requires me to take a quick second to think about modifying the first word instead of the second.

I'll second much of what has already been said. Rank is rank, I don't care who is wearing it. I regularly interact with our enlisted special operators and commissioned pilots/navs/ewos and there is always a mutual respect. Everyone has a specialty and that specialty is an integral part of a much bigger picture. I could not handle their job for a day and most of them are candid in noting that the prospect of law school and the bar seems far scarier to them than dodging bullets and eating mud. I'm obviously not rated or on the combat arms side, but I've never seen a Major's oak leaves and thought "what does his/her specialty badge read?" The salute is genuine and automatic, they have earned it.

Brownshoe raises a great point that officers, line or staff, don't just walk around giving orders. I feel understood that if a superior officer is "asking me" to do something, it is an order. I've never "ordered" any of my paralegals to do something and I've definitely not ordered any other troop, combat arms or otherwise, to do something just for grins.

On that tack, all the officers interact with have tremendous respect for their NCOs. From my E-5 case paralegal, to the E-6 NCOIC for my section, to the E-8 office superintendant. I don't think I could do my job for a day without regularly relying on their help. I'm sure there are tons of arrogant company grade officers out there that shit on the enlisted but I think any officer worth their salt, both in terms of being effective on the job and simply being a good officer, realizes how invaluable a good NCO is.

[oldtimernewname]

I'm an Air Force JAG intern this summer, and I have to say that there is a mutual respect between the officers and the enlisted folks. JAGs are deployable (we have one currently deployed in our office, and one heading to Baghdad in Oct.). To be honest, once you pin on Capt., no one really knows how long you've been a Capt. (one day or five years). Insubordination is pretty uncommon, at least from what I've noticed. It would be pretty dumb for someone to laugh at an officer and walk away. Of course, I haven't heard many stories of officers yelling at subordinates. As far as giving orders, sometimes that's their job, and if somone in an officer's chain of command laughs at an order and walks away, I'm pretty sure there would be some severe consequences (non-judicial punishment, etc.).

P.S. It's spelled Court-martial.

[Esquire]

I thought it was strange that a Sergeant Major (E-9, basically the highest enlisted you could be) with two decades of experience would salute an officer of any rank, even after only having a few months on the job. But that's how it is. However, just because the SGM will salute the CPT doesn't mean the CPT will disrespect the SGM.

You salute those who outrank you. They've earned it and if you do a good job and stick with it, you'll get yours, too. I've noticed a lot of professionalism in that sense.

[illmal]

Nice clarification on SF vs SOF. Even people in the military mix that one up. Most people, actually.

As for respect, yeah it's usually going to be there there, even from a CSM to a 2nd Lt. It's a fine line, though, and both parties have to show respect.

That's how it's supposed to be, and how it usually is. However, as they say, "you're not infantry unless you've got at least one article 15".