Military Law Forum

[Patrick Bateman]

Sorry if this has been asked, but some of the information earlier in this thread may be outdated. Does anyone know about entering JAG early. What branches have programs that take 1Ls or 2Ls? Or is it mostly direct appointment post bar? I am most interested in Army, but open to other branches. If anyone knows or has links (that would be awesome) let me know. Thanks.

It took me less than 2 minutes on Google to find this information for USA, USN, and USAF JAG. Each service branch has their own JAG recruiting page and you'll find all the accession programs w/ application requirements. Use the force.

[upnorthguy]

Speaking of which... anyone have any idea what our pay will be like at JAOBC (i.e., based on a salary of X dollars / year)? My firm has hinted that they will supplement that amount to keep me in line with my current salary--which would be very big of them since they could just tell me to screw off...

I trade e-mails with a guy in the USAR in late 2009 (he was in the 178th JAOBC) and got the skinny on pay during JAOBC:

Look up base pay for a new O-2 (Army Times has a good page). FY11 it is $3,207.30.

A big one (potentially) is your BAH (based on your home of residence). Use an online calculator to figure out what it is. For my neck of the woods (DC area) BAH is worth a lot (approx. $2,400 for an O-2 with dependents). This is not taxed.

You will get BAS (~$225/month, not taxed)
If you are married you will get family separation after 30 days ($250/month, not taxed)

You get $2/day for laundry.

You get a per diem for food. (http://www.gsa.gov/portal/category/21287)
In 2009 it was $39/day at Ft. Lee and $44 in C-ville. (I think it looks like Ft. Lee is $46 and C-ville is currently $56)
Food options are Ft. Lee are apparently limited so most meals you get at at the officer's club so there isn't much extra left. In C-ville you can keep whatever you don't use (so if you can get by with $10/day on food you get to keep the remaining $34). People who stay at the Residence Inn (down the hill from school, usually married folks that are going to have family visit during JAOBC) have kitchenettes and there is a full breakfast every morning and a "lite" dinner that can sometimes substitute for a meal. You can really reduce your food consumption here.

Summary: In FY09 this 1LT said he was bringing home about $5k/month after taxes (he has two dependents so four exemptions).

It might be worth reaching out to one of the current bloggers from armystrongstories to see what kind of numbers they can give you.

Hope this helps.

[I'm in the hopper- after a glitch with my application for the 4/15 USAR application, I'm set to apply for the 9/30 one.]

[hasmith]

That's good info. It is amazing how the allowances and other benefits add up. If you deploy to a hazardous duty location you can really make some amazing bank. Not only does your take-home pay increase, but you typically have no expenses.

[Esquire]

Well, I had my military medical exams done. They weren't too bad. The eye exam was actually pretty fun. It wasn't done through MEPS. Basically, you get a letter in the mail with physical, eye, and ear doctors. You schedule appointments with those doctors, they collect the data onto specific forms, and send it over to DOD. No charge, of course.

Now I wait again.

Sorry if this has been asked, but some of the information earlier in this thread may be outdated. Does anyone know about entering JAG early. What branches have programs that take 1Ls or 2Ls? Or is it mostly direct appointment post bar? I am most interested in Army, but open to other branches. If anyone knows or has links (that would be awesome) let me know. Thanks.

I take time to check through this thread because I want to help. But some questions are very easily answered on your own...

[Rocktober2007]

Well, I had my military medical exams done. They weren't too bad. The eye exam was actually pretty fun. It wasn't done through MEPS. Basically, you get a letter in the mail with physical, eye, and ear doctors. You schedule appointments with those doctors, they collect the data onto specific forms, and send it over to DOD. No charge, of course.

Now I wait again.

Thanks for the info Esquire. Are you AD or Reserve? Also, how long between being selected and receiving paperwork for medical and everything else?

[tgunz]

Speaking of which... anyone have any idea what our pay will be like at JAOBC (i.e., based on a salary of X dollars / year)? My firm has hinted that they will supplement that amount to keep me in line with my current salary--which would be very big of them since they could just tell me to screw off...

I trade e-mails with a guy in the USAR in late 2009 (he was in the 178th JAOBC) and got the skinny on pay during JAOBC:

Look up base pay for a new O-2 (Army Times has a good page). FY11 it is $3,207.30.

A big one (potentially) is your BAH (based on your home of residence). Use an online calculator to figure out what it is. For my neck of the woods (DC area) BAH is worth a lot (approx. $2,400 for an O-2 with dependents). This is not taxed.

You will get BAS (~$225/month, not taxed)
If you are married you will get family separation after 30 days ($250/month, not taxed)

You get $2/day for laundry.

You get a per diem for food. (http://www.gsa.gov/portal/category/21287)
In 2009 it was $39/day at Ft. Lee and $44 in C-ville. (I think it looks like Ft. Lee is $46 and C-ville is currently $56)
Food options are Ft. Lee are apparently limited so most meals you get at at the officer's club so there isn't much extra left. In C-ville you can keep whatever you don't use (so if you can get by with $10/day on food you get to keep the remaining $34). People who stay at the Residence Inn (down the hill from school, usually married folks that are going to have family visit during JAOBC) have kitchenettes and there is a full breakfast every morning and a "lite" dinner that can sometimes substitute for a meal. You can really reduce your food consumption here.

Summary: In FY09 this 1LT said he was bringing home about $5k/month after taxes (he has two dependents so four exemptions).

It might be worth reaching out to one of the current bloggers from armystrongstories to see what kind of numbers they can give you.

Hope this helps.

[I'm in the hopper- after a glitch with my application for the 4/15 USAR application, I'm set to apply for the 9/30 one.]

I was an AD officer before going to law school and this info is pretty much spot on. Nothing has changed. The only thing I didn't know is that for reserves, you still get your home location BAH during JAOBC, which in SoCal isn't a bad thing.

[Rocktober2007]

I really hope we get BAH and that it's based on my So Cal residence. Someone on Armystrongstories.com said differently though: "There is no BAQ while at Ft. Lee. While at C-Ville, single soldiers receive a small BAQ, while married soldiers receive BAQ based on their home of record (I can’t guarantee that last part is 100% accurate, but it was in my notes)." http://armystrongstories.com/blogger/th ... c-phase-i/

[Americana]

Speaking of which... anyone have any idea what our pay will be like at JAOBC (i.e., based on a salary of X dollars / year)? My firm has hinted that they will supplement that amount to keep me in line with my current salary--which would be very big of them since they could just tell me to screw off...

I trade e-mails with a guy in the USAR in late 2009 (he was in the 178th JAOBC) and got the skinny on pay during JAOBC:

Look up base pay for a new O-2 (Army Times has a good page). FY11 it is $3,207.30.

A big one (potentially) is your BAH (based on your home of residence). Use an online calculator to figure out what it is. For my neck of the woods (DC area) BAH is worth a lot (approx. $2,400 for an O-2 with dependents). This is not taxed.

You will get BAS (~$225/month, not taxed)
If you are married you will get family separation after 30 days ($250/month, not taxed)

You get $2/day for laundry.

You get a per diem for food. (http://www.gsa.gov/portal/category/21287)
In 2009 it was $39/day at Ft. Lee and $44 in C-ville. (I think it looks like Ft. Lee is $46 and C-ville is currently $56)
Food options are Ft. Lee are apparently limited so most meals you get at at the officer's club so there isn't much extra left. In C-ville you can keep whatever you don't use (so if you can get by with $10/day on food you get to keep the remaining $34). People who stay at the Residence Inn (down the hill from school, usually married folks that are going to have family visit during JAOBC) have kitchenettes and there is a full breakfast every morning and a "lite" dinner that can sometimes substitute for a meal. You can really reduce your food consumption here.

Summary: In FY09 this 1LT said he was bringing home about $5k/month after taxes (he has two dependents so four exemptions).

It might be worth reaching out to one of the current bloggers from armystrongstories to see what kind of numbers they can give you.

Hope this helps.

[I'm in the hopper- after a glitch with my application for the 4/15 USAR application, I'm set to apply for the 9/30 one.]

Very helpful info, upnorth, and much appreciated. I'm married so I'll be hoping to snag one of the Residence Inn spots. Good luck on the September boards!

[shock259]

Army JAG recruiter came to my school today. She said that the Army has cancelled their 1L summer internship this year due to budget cuts. It's a real shame, as this was my plan for the summer. I asked what experience would be preferable for a 1l summer and she told me anything that is interesting and public service orientated would be received the best. She advised against law firms. She interviews the Army JAG applicants, so she knows her stuff.

So I guess I'll be applying to the 1L summer Navy program, and then a bunch of courts/nonprofits/DA's office/etc.

[Alfred_P_Sloan]

I apologize if this exact question has been answered before.

Until now, I've understood the age cutoff for commissioning as an Army JAG Reserve officer (this is for someone with no prior military experience) to be 42 years old. That's also what this webpage indicates is the requirement for any Army JAG officer, reserve or otherwise.

However, this webpage indicates that Reserve Component applicants must, for appointment as a First Lieutenant, be younger than 33. It's my understanding that when one without prior military experience is commissioned as an Army JAG Officer (reserve or otherwise), he / she is commissioned as a First Lieutenant.

I'm 31 now, turn 32 in a month, my appointment as a reserve officer has already been approved, and I'm in the process of completing appointment documents. However, I'm told there will be significant administrative delays that might prevent me from being commissioned until late next year -- potentially after I turn 33.

Are these both actual in-place (and potentially conflicting) requirements, or is there a typo somewhere? (I can't imagine that the cutoff for a reserve officer would somehow be 33, while for an active duty officer it would be 42.) On this basis, will I need to execute an age waiver in order to be commissioned as a reserve officer, or is 42 the correct age cutoff? I'd rather avoid wasting my and the Army's time (as well as creating potentially months of needless administrative delay) if in fact I don't need to submit an age waiver application.

Please advise if you have an answer. Thanks.

[Esquire]

Well, I had my military medical exams done. They weren't too bad. The eye exam was actually pretty fun. It wasn't done through MEPS. Basically, you get a letter in the mail with physical, eye, and ear doctors. You schedule appointments with those doctors, they collect the data onto specific forms, and send it over to DOD. No charge, of course.

Now I wait again.

Thanks for the info Esquire. Are you AD or Reserve? Also, how long between being selected and receiving paperwork for medical and everything else?

AD Jan 2011 select. Received paperwork for medical when I posted earlier about it. Probably a month ago. So yes, it's very slow but I was also selected for AD as early as one could be (3L, first board). Yours may be faster. Knowing how tough the wait can be, for your sake, I hope yours is faster

[Rocktober2007]

Thanks again Eqsuire.

I just received the medical paperwork from Concorde on Saturday (only a couple weeks after finding out I was selected!). I have a some quick questions for anyone who has already gone through the process:

I answered "Yes" to the questions about wearing contacts and glasses on the Medical History form on DoDMETS. This required me to provide follow up information, including what physicians I have seen and the "diagnosis."

Do I need to figure out the specific physicians I've seen over the 10 or so years I've been wearing contacts/glasses? I've only gone to two offices (one in my hometown and my law school's university health center), but I've never had a specific doctor; whoever was available saw me.

Would "nearsightedness" be a sufficient answer for diagnosis? Or should I track down what my various glasses/contact prescriptions have been over the years?

[upnorthguy]

Just give what info you have. If you provide the name of the two office locations that will give the medical crew the contact info they need if they want to follow up and get copies of your records. I don't think previous prescriptions are important (unless you were previously worse and are now much better because of LASIK or something similar).
The eye exam is pretty quick (~15 min) and the doc sends a form directly to Concorde. My experience with Concorde was smooth- they are pretty efficient. The exam will capture what your vision is now (or at least on that day!).

You have to remember that the instructions apply generically to every question (and probably don't fit all of them perfectly).

[TopClock]

Until now, I've understood the age cutoff for commissioning as an Army JAG Reserve officer (this is for someone with no prior military experience) to be 42 years old. That's also what this webpage indicates is the requirement for any Army JAG officer, reserve or otherwise.

However, this webpage indicates that Reserve Component applicants must, for appointment as a First Lieutenant, be younger than 33. It's my understanding that when one without prior military experience is commissioned as an Army JAG Officer (reserve or otherwise), he / she is commissioned as a First Lieutenant.

Are these both actual in-place (and potentially conflicting) requirements, or is there a typo somewhere? (I can't imagine that the cutoff for a reserve officer would somehow be 33, while for an active duty officer it would be 42.) On this basis, will I need to execute an age waiver in order to be commissioned as a reserve officer, or is 42 the correct age cutoff? I'd rather avoid wasting my and the Army's time (as well as creating potentially months of needless administrative delay) if in fact I don't need to submit an age waiver application.

Please advise if you have an answer. Thanks.

The webpages do seem to conflict. I'm applying for the next board myself, so I wish I knew the answer. Anyone else know whether the age cutoff for Army JAG Reserve is 33 vs. 42?

[doubled99]

I have emailed, as required by the website, two separate Naval bases attempting to setup a JAG interview. I have used the emails provided, but I have gotten no responses. Anyone know anything about this or how to get a hold of someone to setup the interview?

[hasmith]

I have emailed, as required by the website, two separate Naval bases attempting to setup a JAG interview. I have used the emails provided, but I have gotten no responses. Anyone know anything about this or how to get a hold of someone to setup the interview?

Where are you applying for an interview (what region)? I did the interview last year and the generic e-mail addresses worked fine. Have you checked your spam folders?

You could call the JAG Corps accessions office

http://www.jag.navy.mil/careers_/careers/contact.html

[bmlg]

Just curious if any of the AF summer interns have heard from the Air Force Law Review. PMs are welcome if that would be better.

I still haven't heard anything. Just assuming I wasn't chosen. If someone has any info on this, I'd welcome a post as well.

[Esquire]

Just give what info you have. If you provide the name of the two office locations that will give the medical crew the contact info they need if they want to follow up and get copies of your records. I don't think previous prescriptions are important (unless you were previously worse and are now much better because of LASIK or something similar).
The eye exam is pretty quick (~15 min) and the doc sends a form directly to Concorde. My experience with Concorde was smooth- they are pretty efficient. The exam will capture what your vision is now (or at least on that day!).

You have to remember that the instructions apply generically to every question (and probably don't fit all of them perfectly).

Yup, similar for me.

[esq]

JAG came to our grounds and gave us the spiel, and though I've thought about it quite a bit before I came to UVA, I think that I am totally sold on it now. From what I've gathered, AF and Navy JAG are the only programs that extend active duty offers to 1Ls. For the Army and CG, you have to wait until you are a 3L. And the Marines will try to kill you before they consider you for their program. Is that correct? I was hoping that the Army had a 1L program too since they make up the bulk of the JAG school next to us and so it would make sense for a UVA student to make the transition sooner rather than later.

Also, and I know this has been asked, but because the crop that JAG can select from nowadays is becoming much more competitive, does it help me that I am at UVA? Nothing is guaranteed, and I assume that I will do fine during my 1L, but with the heightened level of talent at UVA compared to some of the lower schools I was accepted to, does JAG take the competition factor into account when looking at which school you attend? I suppose I'm asking: how good do I need to be grade wise during my first year at UVA in order to give my self a legit shot at this?

[Patrick Bateman]

JAG came to our grounds and gave us the spiel, and though I've thought about it quite a bit before I came to UVA, I think that I am totally sold on it now. From what I've gathered, AF and Navy JAG are the only programs that extend active duty offers to 1Ls. For the Army and CG, you have to wait until you are a 3L. And the Marines will try to kill you before they consider you for their program. Is that correct? I was hoping that the Army had a 1L program too since they make up the bulk of the JAG school next to us and so it would make sense for a UVA student to make the transition sooner rather than later.

Also, and I know this has been asked, but because the crop that JAG can select from nowadays is becoming much more competitive, does it help me that I am at UVA? Nothing is guaranteed, and I assume that I will do fine during my 1L, but with the heightened level of talent at UVA compared to some of the lower schools I was accepted to, does JAG take the competition factor into account when looking at which school you attend? I suppose I'm asking: how good do I need to be grade wise during my first year at UVA in order to give my self a legit shot at this?

As always, can only speak from the perspective of a few years in USAF.

AF does have the Graduate Law Program (GLP) which offers you the opportunity to apply as a 1L, with ROTC your 2L and 3L. While the ease of application or ability to lock in an offer early does have a legitimate appeal, I would spend some time considering which service in which you really want to serve. This time last year I was in a joint deployment and had the opportunity of working with JAGs from all the services (save the Coasties) - there are some significant differences, both practical and philosophical, between all of us. This applies in terms of serving not just as a JAG but as a officer in the larger sense. Based on the time I have spent TDY at the Army JAG School, there are at least two AF JAGs and a handful of Navy that are there as faculty, to say nothing of all the LLM students. Venture across the street and talk to the different uniforms - esp the Field Grades that have had enough time in to have seen at least one deployment and, at least for the AF, have had 1-3 assignments outside of the base legal office and can offer a broader perspective as to their experiences with 6+ years in.

No question that UVA is an outstanding program. That said, it will only get you so far. If you have all the right boxes checked (which I actually think is harder to determine for 1L applicants as you cannot hang your hat on any journals or moot court), you will be competitive. All in all, I truly do not see it being a significant advantage. You have to consider that most SJAs, the O-5s and O-6s that are not just interviewing you, but compose the selection boards, do not put as much stock into the T-14 prestige that one finds on XOXO and this board. They have been in at least 17 years (give or take a bit for the fast burners) and have seen enough junior captains to realize that law school pedigree does not always translate into being a successful JAG. Just because you might be bright does not mean you will be good in the courtroom or have the ability/desire to be a good officer (distinct from being a good lawyer). With three years in AF courtrooms and base legal offices, I cannot find any correlation between law school rank and ability as a JAG. To be honest, three T-14 grads that I have worked with have been pretty mediocre. Also consider that SJAs come from the same variety of law schools that we hire from today - the T2/T3 grad that made O-6 and is on his/her third assignment as an SJA will probably not be drinking the USNWR Kool-Aid.

All of that covered - I have nothing but respect for anyone that has the desire to apply and serve in a time of war. It speaks to an individual's character to pursue a commission when there are far more comfortable, safer, and lucrative opportunities coming from a top program. Stay humble and appreciate the perspective that you will be evaluated on who you are and what you can do versus your educational pedigree; do that and you'll be fine.

[shock259]

PB is great, as usual.

I'd just correct some of your information on your upcoming opportunities. I omitted Marine/Coasties because I do not know it.

1L - Active Duty
Air Force

1L Summer Internships
Army (Normally, but Summer 2012 is cancelled - so our class does not have this opportunity)
Navy (appears to still be available for Summer 2012 but have not confirmed with personnel)

2L - Active Duty
Air Force
Navy
Army

Hope this helps. Definitely would encourage you to research each program and confirm everything. But that is the gist.

[esq]

Thanks guys.

[Esquire]

This time last year I was in a joint deployment and had the opportunity of working with JAGs from all the services (save the Coasties) - there are some significant differences, both practical and philosophical, between all of us. This applies in terms of serving not just as a JAG but as a officer in the larger sense. Based on the time I have spent TDY at the Army JAG School, there are at least two AF JAGs and a handful of Navy that are there as faculty, to say nothing of all the LLM students.

PB: Since you've had some experience, can you elaborate on what you feel are the differences between JAGs of each branch?

[Groundie]

Had my Army interview this week. After years of being rejected from the AF and the Navy, it's time to hope that the people who first gave me a chance with JAG experience, the Army, will give me another for active duty.

[shock259]

Good luck, Groundie.

Did you get any curveballs in your interview? I'm always searching for interview tips, so if you feel like sharing, that would be awesome. Don't worry - I won't be applying for another year.