Military Law Forum

[allAF]

Has anyone been through the AF JAG One Year College Program?

I am about to start my 2L year and am VERY interested in this program. Any advice/information would be greatly appreciated!!

If anyone has AF OYCP questions, send me a PM. I'm happy to answer them as best I can!

[tcmturner]

I read the first 25 or so pages of this thread before I realized that all of the info was probably out of date.

I have some questions and I imagine some of the answers may have changed in the last few years. As of 2011:

1) Which services are most/least selective in terms of grades?
2) All of the services talk about "whole person" but theoretically speaking, in an interview who does one establish that they are a good leader, etc.?
3) Which services are the most macho/traditional army mentality and which are less so? (I know USMC is the most macho, but how do the others fall in line?)

Thanks so much

[firemed]

Well.... crap.

The last test (the one that was supposed to clear me) came in. The results indicate I probably do have a minor, chronic, non-fatal kidney disease. More tests will follow to determine one way or the other over the next couple months.

In any case, assuming I do have this... (and I think I know what the answer is going to be here) but what do y'all think the chances of getting a waiver for this sort of thing are considering how many people apply every cycle?

ETA: any chance the National Guard would be more likely to give a waiver for something like this? I hear they are more forgiving of physical issues...

[tcmturner]

Well.... crap.

The last test (the one that was supposed to clear me) came in. The results indicate I probably do have a minor, chronic, non-fatal kidney disease. More tests will follow to determine one way or the other over the next couple months.

In any case, assuming I do have this... (and I think I know what the answer is going to be here) but what do y'all think the chances of getting a waiver for this sort of thing are considering how many people apply every cycle?

ETA: any chance the National Guard would be more likely to give a waiver for something like this? I hear they are more forgiving of physical issues...

Oddly, I too have a chronic kidney condition (life long). Is there anyway to get a sort of "pre-screening" to check whether or not there is anyway I will ever get accepted into JAG before I undertake a JAG internship and completely forego my chances at BigLaw?

[firemed]

Well.... crap.

The last test (the one that was supposed to clear me) came in. The results indicate I probably do have a minor, chronic, non-fatal kidney disease. More tests will follow to determine one way or the other over the next couple months.

In any case, assuming I do have this... (and I think I know what the answer is going to be here) but what do y'all think the chances of getting a waiver for this sort of thing are considering how many people apply every cycle?

ETA: any chance the National Guard would be more likely to give a waiver for something like this? I hear they are more forgiving of physical issues...

Oddly, I too have a chronic kidney condition (life long). Is there anyway to get a sort of "pre-screening" to check whether or not there is anyway I will ever get accepted into JAG before I undertake a JAG internship and completely forego my chances at BigLaw?

Somebody should seriously offer a pre-screen exam. I would pay a doctor with MEPs experience to do that for me.

[CyLaw]

Well.... crap.

The last test (the one that was supposed to clear me) came in. The results indicate I probably do have a minor, chronic, non-fatal kidney disease. More tests will follow to determine one way or the other over the next couple months.

In any case, assuming I do have this... (and I think I know what the answer is going to be here) but what do y'all think the chances of getting a waiver for this sort of thing are considering how many people apply every cycle?

ETA: any chance the National Guard would be more likely to give a waiver for something like this? I hear they are more forgiving of physical issues...

Oddly, I too have a chronic kidney condition (life long). Is there anyway to get a sort of "pre-screening" to check whether or not there is anyway I will ever get accepted into JAG before I undertake a JAG internship and completely forego my chances at BigLaw?

If you know the name and type of your condition, you can check Army Reg 40-501, Standards of Medical Fitness (This same reg is used by all services). That will at least tell you if you really need to worry and if waiver is possible. Also, make sure to check with the JAG recruiter to see if any paperwork would need to be done by MEPS.

[tcmturner]

If you know the name and type of your condition, you can check Army Reg 40-501, Standards of Medical Fitness (This same reg is used by all services). That will at least tell you if you really need to worry and if waiver is possible. Also, make sure to check with the JAG recruiter to see if any paperwork would need to be done by MEPS.

That is EXCELLENT! My particular condition is not listed (it is INSANELY rare) but it's close cousin is and it says that I'm good as long as I don't require meds (which I don't).

Thanks CyLaw, you've just given my dreams new hope!

[firemed]

If you know the name and type of your condition, you can check Army Reg 40-501, Standards of Medical Fitness (This same reg is used by all services). That will at least tell you if you really need to worry and if waiver is possible. Also, make sure to check with the JAG recruiter to see if any paperwork would need to be done by MEPS.

Thanks for the link, it helped a little.

Unfortunately it is as I suspected and I will need to apply for a waiver if I have what they think I have. Only bonus is that it will be the State Surgeon who will make a determination for NG and I know the guy personally so I may be able to get more consideration than the average person requesting a waiver.

We'll see. I'll worry about it when the time comes I guess, and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

Thanks again.

[tcmturner]

I read the first 25 or so pages of this thread before I realized that all of the info was probably out of date.

I have some questions and I imagine some of the answers may have changed in the last few years. As of 2011:

1) Which services are most/least selective in terms of grades?
2) All of the services talk about "whole person" but theoretically speaking, in an interview who does one establish that they are a good leader, etc.?
3) Which services are the most macho/traditional army mentality and which are less so? (I know USMC is the most macho, but how do the others fall in line?)

Thanks so much

I'd also love to know the breakdown on how long each service typically deploys it's jag for. I think Bateman said that typically AF is 6 months, but what are the other services like?

[Paichka]

I read the first 25 or so pages of this thread before I realized that all of the info was probably out of date.

I have some questions and I imagine some of the answers may have changed in the last few years. As of 2011:

1) Which services are most/least selective in terms of grades?
2) All of the services talk about "whole person" but theoretically speaking, in an interview who does one establish that they are a good leader, etc.?
3) Which services are the most macho/traditional army mentality and which are less so? (I know USMC is the most macho, but how do the others fall in line?)

Thanks so much

I'd also love to know the breakdown on how long each service typically deploys it's jag for. I think Bateman said that typically AF is 6 months, but what are the other services like?

Depends. JAGs deploy for as long as the units they're assigned to deploy.

Army is generally 12 months. Same with Marines.
Navy proper is 9 months (at least the Navy officers I served with were deployed for 9). Air Force is 6-9.

[brownshoe]

I'd also love to know the breakdown on how long each service typically deploys it's jag for. I think Bateman said that typically AF is 6 months, but what are the other services like?

There is no standard deployment for the Navy. If you're on an IA, it could be anywhere from 6-12 months. If you are on a carrier, it will be about 6 months (not including work-ups). If you are on task force of some type, it could be anywhere from 6 weeks - 6 months.

[cake]

RE: Army Active Duty 2011 Fall Board

JARO has not updated the website since the spring 2011 board, so it still says the deadline is March 1, 2011. However, if you log into the application, the active duty application is available with an AUGUST 1ST 2011 DEADLINE. This has got to be some sort of mistake, but I'm still going to call JARO first thing tomorrow morning to double check.

Edit: The 8/1/2011 app was gone when I logged in this morning. Whew!

I received an email from my school's Army FSO. The Spring board is canceled, so apply for the Fall board if you are a 3L.

[Rocktober2007]

RE: Army Active Duty 2011 Fall Board

JARO has not updated the website since the spring 2011 board, so it still says the deadline is March 1, 2011. However, if you log into the application, the active duty application is available with an AUGUST 1ST 2011 DEADLINE. This has got to be some sort of mistake, but I'm still going to call JARO first thing tomorrow morning to double check.

Edit: The 8/1/2011 app was gone when I logged in this morning. Whew!

I received an email from my school's Army FSO. The Spring board is canceled, so apply for the Fall board if you are a 3L.

Thanks for the heads up. JARO just confirmed this on their homepage.

[Perch]

Well.... crap.

The last test (the one that was supposed to clear me) came in. The results indicate I probably do have a minor, chronic, non-fatal kidney disease. More tests will follow to determine one way or the other over the next couple months.

In any case, assuming I do have this... (and I think I know what the answer is going to be here) but what do y'all think the chances of getting a waiver for this sort of thing are considering how many people apply every cycle?

ETA: any chance the National Guard would be more likely to give a waiver for something like this? I hear they are more forgiving of physical issues...

Oddly, I too have a chronic kidney condition (life long). Is there anyway to get a sort of "pre-screening" to check whether or not there is anyway I will ever get accepted into JAG before I undertake a JAG internship and completely forego my chances at BigLaw?

Why did you say forego big law? I would think that while yes usually if you don't go big law right out of school, you usually lose the chance, but I would think that 5 years as a JAG officer would have to put you back in the running, with an advantage. I'm completely guessing, so can someone with more knowledge (read:any) help please? I'm curious about this now too. Thanks.

[CFC_Essien]

Hello All:

Long time reader of the Board, first time poster. Just had my first AF JAG interview two days ago! If you want me to provide any insight as to the interview, let me know.

Best of luck w/ you all!

[Patrick Bateman]

Hello All:

Long time reader of the Board, first time poster. Just had my first AF JAG interview two days ago! If you want me to provide any insight as to the interview, let me know.

Best of luck w/ you all!

Best of luck to you with selection!

If you are on the JAG page of the AirForceOTS forum at all, there was a poster looking for interview information there.

[duckmoney]

Is the JAG application (I'm thinking of AF specifically, but this could go for any branch) confidential? For instance, no private sector employer or political opponent would ever have access to my drug use disclosure, correct?

[Patrick Bateman]

Is the JAG application (I'm thinking of AF specifically, but this could go for any branch) confidential? For instance, no private sector employer or political opponent would ever have access to my drug use disclosure, correct?

Got yourself some political opponents, huh?

AF Form 2030, the drug/alcohol abuse certificate, is subject to the Privacy Act of 1974. While there are exceptions to the Act, you are presumably safe.

[CFC_Essien]

Thanks, Patrick. I'll give that other website a look and try to find the person you're talking about.

I have heard (and read on this board as well) about many horror interviews, but mine went really well in the sense that the SJA was a really nice and down-to-earth person. There was a Captain there as well, and she was really nice.

I realize the acceptance rate and my stats prob don't work to my favor (I'm from a TTT school and went there at night while working full-time/3.3 History Major/3.1 Law School GPA), but am 28, grew up on AF bases, involved in the community, and conveyed to them that the AF JAG Corps was all I really wanted to do (I worked for a private firm throughout law school and hated the dollar-is-the-bottom-line mentality. I probably won't get accepted, but will keep trying.

For those interested, the interview was about 2 hrs, and surprisingly did not focus on the typical interview questions (biggest strengths, give examples of leadership, etc.) Nor did it consist of current events - which I was sure they were going to ask about. Following a tour of the office, the SJA started the interview with asking me what questions I had, then spent about an hour explaining what I would be expected of me and then another hour solely asking me about my resume/interests.

Not sure what to make of my interview substantively, but they made it as comfortable as I can imagine(again, in comparison to other interviews that I have heard about).

All in all, a pleasant experience with a pleasant group. I'd be over the moon to be involved with such a respectful organization. They said I should hear back from Selection Board mid-Oct.

I have a question, though. I've heard/read that some are strongly urged to reapply/etc. Does that come with the denial from the Selection Board? I.e., are we allowed to see what the SJA thought of us? Or are those remarks just what the SJA told them during the interview?

[Patrick Bateman]

Thanks, Patrick. I'll give that other website a look and try to find the person you're talking about.

I have heard (and read on this board as well) about many horror interviews, but mine went really well in the sense that the SJA was a really nice and down-to-earth person. There was a Captain there as well, and she was really nice.

I realize the acceptance rate and my stats prob don't work to my favor (I'm from a TTT school and went there at night while working full-time/3.3 History Major/3.1 Law School GPA), but am 28, grew up on AF bases, involved in the community, and conveyed to them that the AF JAG Corps was all I really wanted to do (I worked for a private firm throughout law school and hated the dollar-is-the-bottom-line mentality. I probably won't get accepted, but will keep trying.

For those interested, the interview was about 2 hrs, and surprisingly did not focus on the typical interview questions (biggest strengths, give examples of leadership, etc.) Nor did it consist of current events - which I was sure they were going to ask about. Following a tour of the office, the SJA started the interview with asking me what questions I had, then spent about an hour explaining what I would be expected of me and then another hour solely asking me about my resume/interests.

Not sure what to make of my interview substantively, but they made it as comfortable as I can imagine(again, in comparison to other interviews that I have heard about).

All in all, a pleasant experience with a pleasant group. I'd be over the moon to be involved with such a respectful organization. They said I should hear back from Selection Board mid-Oct.

I have a question, though. I've heard/read that some are strongly urged to reapply/etc. Does that come with the denial from the Selection Board? I.e., are we allowed to see what the SJA thought of us? Or are those remarks just what the SJA told them during the interview?

I'm fairly certain the stock language in the rejection letters contains a sentence about reapplying. I know there are instances where the interviewing SJA has personally recommended to an applicant that he/she reapply. You will not see the evaluation letter written by the SJA that is included in the application package.

[shock259]

Glad to see this thread is still active!

1. Do possible budget cuts scare anyone? Would some JAG jobs likely be cut?

2. Finally, should I just wait and make sure I want to do this? I'm still not certain if I really want to focus on litigation (which JAG certainly is). But then again, I really have no way of knowing. And I probably won't be accepted anyway. It can't hurt to stay laying the groundwork, I suppose.

Sorry for flurry of questions! THANKS so much!

Edit: I keep finding answers to my questions by reading through the thread in its entirety. I'm deleting them as I go..

I'm most curious if anyone has any wisdom the letters of rec and/or the AFROTC interview.

Thank you!

[howell]

There are other people that participate in this thread who are more qualified to answer your questions, but I wanted to respond to a couple of yours.

4. Do possible budget cuts scare anyone? Would some JAG jobs likely be cut?

I would certainly not classify myself as scared (with me being a DAP applicant this year). If it is in the best interest of the nation to have a smaller military, then I am fine with that, and I will find something else to do. I'm not "scared" of what might happen to me if the reason I do not get a spot or am forced out is budgetary. Might it happen? Sure, but I can't control that.

With enough cuts, most job types would face cuts. But JAG seems to be very stable in this regard. If I recall correctly, we were notified this summer that the upcoming RIF boards would not be affecting JAG officers. That could obviously change at any time.

I'm still not certain if I really want to focus on litigation (which JAG certainly is).

While it is true that the JAG corps seem to look for applicants with a litigation focus and/or litigation experience and that at least part of your time as a JAG officer will be in a litigation/trial setting, there are career paths available within the Air Force JAG corps that would keep one well away from a courtroom for quite awhile, if not most of one's career. Nothing is definite, as what you do will always be subject to the needs of the Air Force, but I encountered many JAG officers this summer that had years of non-trial/litigation assignments. Practically, if they send you to get your LLM in Government Procurement Law, they will probably not want you spending most of your time in the courtroom.

[howell]

I just wrapped up the Air Force 2L internship, so I thought I would share some advice based on my experience (both from things that went well and things I wish I had planned better).

Base selection - I didn't put much thought into this, because my main concern was logistics and cost. I wanted to be somewhat close to the school I attend, because I am involved in a lot of activities that might benefit from me being present at times during the summer. I was able to choose a base that fit this need, and that is great. I even turned down the opportunity to spend the summer in a muuuuuuuch better location, but, as it turns out, that may not have been a good idea even besides being farther away. Bases vary a lot based on their size, composition (e.g., civilian vs. military employees), and mission(s). At some bases, I'm sure an intern could spend the entire summer doing Military Justice if they wished. The base I was at was composed of significantly more civilians than servicemembers, so Military Justice wasn't as busy, but there were many other areas that were busy and/or somewhat unique to the base. If you want exposure to different areas that you might work in as a JAG (and, perhaps, more importantly, would like to be able to speak to your experiences in each of these areas come interview/application time), which base you select/are selected for will have an impact on your options. My suggestion would be to find a current/former JAG and ask them about the differences in the bases you're looking at and/or ask them which bases might fit what you would like to do.

Letters of recommendation - It's difficult, but it would be helpful to identify early on during your internship who, at the base, you would like to try to get a letter of recommendation from. One fact about military life is that people are always on the move - even the civilians. Make sure that the person/people you would like to like you are going to be there during the time that you think you will be able to work with them.

Civilian attorneys - Do not overlook them. We all get excited to work with the JAG officers that have the job we want, but consider that many civilian attorneys working for the office you're interning with could be former and/or retired JAG officers. Also, at least at my base and most of the bases I looked at the rosters for, a lot of JAG officers are very early in their careers, so you might not have a plethora of colonels to choose from to work with. I certainly have little insight into the application process greater than the knowledge presented in this thread, but a retired colonel who has also spent 10-20 years working as a civilian attorney for the branch you're applying to might be able to say quite a lot about your potential as an officer.

Be flexible, especially at the start - Count on not getting a computer for possibly 2 weeks. Or the whole summer. It depends on where you're working within the office, the availability of equipment, how long you're in each section, etc.

[shock259]

Thanks Howell. Helpful posts.

I've finished reading the whole thread! It took a long, long time, but it's been an extremely helpful resource. As a fresh 1L, I'm going to be applying to the AF's GLP for the February board. The only real lingering questions I have are regarding letters of rec and the AFROTC interview.

1. Letters of rec. The GLP app says you can submit up to 5, but they are all optional. Being that I will have a pretty limited pool of potential professors to draw from in my first semester, is 5 really expected? I've been out of UG for a year so I don't think I can ask my old professors.

Here's my strategy: blitzkrieg the hell out of office hours for all of my professors, establish repertoire, ask as many as I can towards the end of the semester for a letter. I can hopefully get 3 or so from this. I worked for one year as a paralegal prior to law school - would the associates I worked closely with be suitable for writing letters of rec? One is late 30's and the other is mid 40's, if that makes a difference. I think this would be my only way to get to 5.

Further, is it realistic to guess that 3 of my 5 first semester professors will like me enough to write me letters over winter break if I am always in their office hours and engaging them?

2. What is the AFROTC interview like? Is it an interview at all or just a quick conversation?

Sorry to double post! I should have just waited to post questions until I read the thread.

thanks!!

[Patrick Bateman]

Thanks Howell. Helpful posts.

I've finished reading the whole thread! It took a long, long time, but it's been an extremely helpful resource. As a fresh 1L, I'm going to be applying to the AF's GLP for the February board. The only real lingering questions I have are regarding letters of rec and the AFROTC interview.

1. Letters of rec. The GLP app says you can submit up to 5, but they are all optional. Being that I will have a pretty limited pool of potential professors to draw from in my first semester, is 5 really expected? I've been out of UG for a year so I don't think I can ask my old professors.

Here's my strategy: blitzkrieg the hell out of office hours for all of my professors, establish repertoire, ask as many as I can towards the end of the semester for a letter. I can hopefully get 3 or so from this. I worked for one year as a paralegal prior to law school - would the associates I worked closely with be suitable for writing letters of rec? One is late 30's and the other is mid 40's, if that makes a difference. I think this would be my only way to get to 5.

Further, is it realistic to guess that 3 of my 5 first semester professors will like me enough to write me letters over winter break if I am always in their office hours and engaging them?

2. What is the AFROTC interview like? Is it an interview at all or just a quick conversation?

Sorry to double post! I should have just waited to post questions until I read the thread.

thanks!!

Repertoire or rapport with your professors?

I would recommend 5 if you can swing it; anecdotally, it looks good on you to max out the letters, even if not five of the five are A+ level. Approach the letters in the holistic sense that the accession boards will – getting 5 letters from profs that speak to the same aspect of your character (academics) will not help the boards understand you better. Throw in some of the former attorneys you have worked for and anyone else that might have seen you demonstrate “officer” qualities (leadership, initiative, etc), and you will be in good shape. For my five letters in my DAP application packet, I only had 2 law professors. If you know any military officers, active or retired, I highly recommend trying to get a letter from them.

The SJA interview for GLP/OYCP is going to be substantially similar to that of DAP. Obviously the programs are different terms of ROTC commitments (field training, etc) and so some of the interview will look at that. That said, the SJA is still trying to answer the same “does this person have the potential to be a successful officer” question. If you find forums or threads dealing with the DAP SJA interview, you’ll have enough advance read for the GLP interview. Keep in mind that the interview process can vary significantly from SJA to SJA. I have heard of interviews at slower bases taking 3-4 hours. Others are 30 minutes. If you are not on the AirForceOTS board yet, I highly recommend checking that out. The JAG forum has a number of solid posters.