Military Law Forum

[ZFB]

Did anyone here go through the USMC PLC or OCC Commissioning Programs? I'm meeting with an OSO when I get to DC for school and I'm trying to get together a list of questions. Any advice you all have for me would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[Rocktober2007]

Did anyone here go through the USMC PLC or OCC Commissioning Programs? I'm meeting with an OSO when I get to DC for school and I'm trying to get together a list of questions. Any advice you all have for me would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Have you checked out MarineOCS.com? You should definitely register and read up there if you haven't. Tons of good info.

[ZFB]

Did anyone here go through the USMC PLC or OCC Commissioning Programs? I'm meeting with an OSO when I get to DC for school and I'm trying to get together a list of questions. Any advice you all have for me would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Have you checked out MarineOCS.com? You should definitely register and read up there if you haven't. Tons of good info.

Cool, I'll check it out. Done tons a research, just haven't talked with anyone who went though the process recently. Thanks.

[Porcupus]

Phew! I just finished reading every single post on this thread! Thanks for all of the info guys I really appreciate the help. One question that I've been thinking about lately is a moral one. Do you guys who are active duty feel that your actions on a day-to-day basis are helping your fellow soldiers? How about the locals(Afghannis or Iraqis)? Any examples?

Oh, and just FYI for anyone considering Marine corps PLC-law, you are trained heavily for a reason. The OSO I spoke to told me that several of his JA buddies from OCS were assigned to infantry units because the Iraq war had just started when they graduated. In all likely hood a situation like that won't come up in the next few years, but it is something to bear in mind.

[EstboundNDwn]

Good point. It'd also be a hassle to apply to multiple states at the same time. I was just saying it was possible to apply to Active, Reserve, and (one state) NG all at the same time if you really wanted.

As for Groundie's question, I have no idea. It's so competitive right now. I was not selected for the Fall 2010 or Spring 2011 boards. I've heard of people who seemed way more qualified than me not being selected, so it makes me wonder if I even have a chance. I'll be putting in another application this fall though. (That is unless I'm picked up by the Reserve board and find a civilian job).

What made them so qualified?

[Rocktober2007]

Good point. It'd also be a hassle to apply to multiple states at the same time. I was just saying it was possible to apply to Active, Reserve, and (one state) NG all at the same time if you really wanted.

As for Groundie's question, I have no idea. It's so competitive right now. I was not selected for the Fall 2010 or Spring 2011 boards. I've heard of people who seemed way more qualified than me not being selected, so it makes me wonder if I even have a chance. I'll be putting in another application this fall though. (That is unless I'm picked up by the Reserve board and find a civilian job).

What made them so qualified?

Prior service and ROTC ed-delay folks with letters of rec. from Army officers and far better law school grades.

[MarineLaw]

Hey I'm a first lieutenant in the USMC that works with the SJAs regularly, and I have a good buddy who's lead prosecutor on base.

I can answer any questions about OCS, The Basic School (required 6 months of post-OCS infantry/ basic officer training) and the fleet that your might have. I'll do it in the most non-propagandish way. Any SJA questions I can answer I will. I'm applying for the FY12/13 FLEP.

[Rocktober2007]

Hey I'm a first lieutenant in the USMC that works with the SJAs regularly, and I have a good buddy who's lead prosecutor on base.

I can answer any questions about OCS, The Basic School (required 6 months of post-OCS infantry/ basic officer training) and the fleet that your might have. I'll do it in the most non-propagandish way. Any SJA questions I can answer I will. I'm applying for the FY12/13 FLEP.

Thanks for taking the time to answer some questions. I'm thinking about applying, but I've always been apprehensive about OCS. I've heard that about ~30% don't make it through (and that number is even higher for the women). What's the hardest part about getting through OCS? How avoidable are injuries?

[npe]

Anyone know people who have clerked with CAAF for a year or two? Would this be a leg up in applying for a JAG position, and would it have any bearing on whether you were assigned criminal work if you got it? Thanks.

[Paichka]

Anyone know people who have clerked with CAAF for a year or two? Would this be a leg up in applying for a JAG position, and would it have any bearing on whether you were assigned criminal work if you got it? Thanks.

Short answer? Maybe, and probably not.

Maybe, because working at CAAF will certainly give you visibility and likely some kick-ass recommendations. ACCA or one of the other service-specific appellate courts might be better, though, because those judges are active-duty military and peers with the yahoos at TJAG who make the selections, so their word about who would be a good fit for the corps might carry more weight. That's entirely speculative, though -- I think that clerking, and doing well, would demonstrate a high level of competence, and you'd certainly get exposed to issues on the cutting edge of military law.

Now, whether that would have any bearing on whether you were assigned to an MJ slot? Probably not. Military Justice (criminal) slots are HIGHLY competitive -- most people coming out of the schoolhouse want to get trial time, and where you're assigned within any individual JAG office is going to be up to the Staff Judge Advocate in charge of that office. So, if you come in with a great background and rave reviews from your instructors at the schoolhouse, you certainly have a better chance of getting a trial counsel (prosecutor) slot from the get-go...however, dollars-to-donuts your first job is going to be in legal assistance. Generally, SJAs want their newbies to cut their teeth working on wills, separation agreements, and landlord-tenant issues before you get rotated into the courtroom. The best way, in my mind, to get trial time quickly is to request a large post -- Fort Stewart, Fort Hood, Fort Bragg -- where there are multiple tenant units (at least 25,000 soldiers) and large military justice sections in each office. Avoid the smaller (and generally nicer) posts like Fort Myer and Fort Bevoir (DC Area), or Fort Carson (Colorado).

That's the Army perspective, but I imagine that it would hold true in all the services.

[EstboundNDwn]

Anyone have any opinions about enlisting as a paralegal specialist if JAG doesn't work out?

[Rocktober2007]

Army NG results posted today, but still no update on when Reserve results will be posted. Congrats to all selected!

[Patrick Bateman]

Anyone know people who have clerked with CAAF for a year or two? Would this be a leg up in applying for a JAG position, and would it have any bearing on whether you were assigned criminal work if you got it? Thanks.

Short answer? Maybe, and probably not.

Maybe, because working at CAAF will certainly give you visibility and likely some kick-ass recommendations. ACCA or one of the other service-specific appellate courts might be better, though, because those judges are active-duty military and peers with the yahoos at TJAG who make the selections, so their word about who would be a good fit for the corps might carry more weight. That's entirely speculative, though -- I think that clerking, and doing well, would demonstrate a high level of competence, and you'd certainly get exposed to issues on the cutting edge of military law.

Now, whether that would have any bearing on whether you were assigned to an MJ slot? Probably not. Military Justice (criminal) slots are HIGHLY competitive -- most people coming out of the schoolhouse want to get trial time, and where you're assigned within any individual JAG office is going to be up to the Staff Judge Advocate in charge of that office. So, if you come in with a great background and rave reviews from your instructors at the schoolhouse, you certainly have a better chance of getting a trial counsel (prosecutor) slot from the get-go...however, dollars-to-donuts your first job is going to be in legal assistance. Generally, SJAs want their newbies to cut their teeth working on wills, separation agreements, and landlord-tenant issues before you get rotated into the courtroom. The best way, in my mind, to get trial time quickly is to request a large post -- Fort Stewart, Fort Hood, Fort Bragg -- where there are multiple tenant units (at least 25,000 soldiers) and large military justice sections in each office. Avoid the smaller (and generally nicer) posts like Fort Myer and Fort Bevoir (DC Area), or Fort Carson (Colorado).

That's the Army perspective, but I imagine that it would hold true in all the services.

The Air Force view of things:

I agree with Paichka regarding CAAF versus the Service Appellate Courts (AFCAF, et al). That said, CAAF experience would undoubtedly be an outstanding element of your application. If that is something you can pursue, absolutely go for it.

The Air Force handles Military Justice differently than the Army. We serve in MJ roles from day 1. This is both as MJ oriented section chiefs (running the Article 15 or Admininsrative Discharge section in the legal office's military justice division) and as trial counsel (prosecutors). While the volume of MJ actions and courts can vary wildly on the base to which one is assigned (an Air Combat Command versus a Space Command base for example), all first assignment JAGs will get to experience both an MJ section and some time as a prosecutor. At my present base, each of us generally clear about 15 courts in a 24 month assignment, though I would say we are well above average.

[billaboy12]

First of all, thank you to everyone who has contributed to this forum. Your information has provided an amazing asset to anyone interested in pursuing the JAG Corps. After reading through all 91 pages, I'm fairly certain this question hasn't been addressed yet:

As a rising 2L, I will be applying for the AF OYCP this fall. If I was to also apply for the 2L summer internships with both the Army and AF, would an acceptance into all three pose an issue? (particularly if I got into OYCP and accepted an Army 2L internship)

Thanks for any information.

[allAF]

As a rising 2L, I will be applying for the AF OYCP this fall. If I was to also apply for the 2L summer internships with both the Army and AF, would an acceptance into all three pose an issue? (particularly if I got into OYCP and accepted an Army 2L internship)

Thanks for any information.

The problem with accepting ANY summer internship with the OYCP program relates to scheduling your summer work around ROTC/OYCP summer field training. OYCP requires that you attend field training during your 2L summer, and dates are usually smack dab in the middle of normal summer internship dates. And unfortunately for law students, there is little to no flexibility in those field training dates. Some internships - private or government - are simply not willing to accommodate an intern taking 4-5 weeks off in the middle of an 8-10 week internship. This makes it challenging (though not impossible) for OYCPers to find paid summer work. (It strikes me that OYCP folks reading this might also have found the 2L summer job problem...frustrating. Maybe we should send suggestions up to JAX regarding this situation...I know it was a problem for me, and though they may not be able to make changes, they may also have just not have considered some of the nuances of the timing of legal internship hunting and the conflicting demands of the OYCP program.)

Back to the point, however, and although I can't speak with certainty during the rest of this post, I do think you can accept OYCP and a summer internship at Army JAG for your 2L summer. You would have to get the Army to work with your training needs, and I have no idea how willing they are to be flexible. As long as you were able to schedule your internships around field training, I think getting cross-branch JAG experience would be extremely beneficial to your future AF JAG practice. As for AF internships, I think I once heard there are some persnickety rules about AF internships and OYCP which I'm not 100% familiar with, and acceptance of one may result in forfeiture of the other. A quick call to the folks at AF JAG/JAX can help you clear up any confusion there. But the SJA who interviewed me suggested that I look into volunteer AF JAG internships to round out my 2L summer. I already had other plans, so I didn't look further into it.

For a useful anecdote, I personally know one person who was accepted into the GLP program who worked at a different military branch JAG office during their 1L summer. As I said to that person, you don't fully commit to the AF with either GLP or OYCP until you complete summer field training, so that's when the "hard" decisions really have to be made. And if you for some reason decided to bail from AF to go Army, it's my opinion that it's far better to find that out before you commit 4 years to a branch you desire less. I simply can't imagine the AF would rescind an OYCP offer because someone worked for Army for 10 weeks doing something completely related to what they'd be doing with the AF.

[Esquire]

Anyone know people who have clerked with CAAF for a year or two? Would this be a leg up in applying for a JAG position, and would it have any bearing on whether you were assigned criminal work if you got it? Thanks.

Short answer? Maybe, and probably not.

Maybe, because working at CAAF will certainly give you visibility and likely some kick-ass recommendations. ACCA or one of the other service-specific appellate courts might be better, though, because those judges are active-duty military and peers with the yahoos at TJAG who make the selections, so their word about who would be a good fit for the corps might carry more weight. That's entirely speculative, though -- I think that clerking, and doing well, would demonstrate a high level of competence, and you'd certainly get exposed to issues on the cutting edge of military law.

Now, whether that would have any bearing on whether you were assigned to an MJ slot? Probably not. Military Justice (criminal) slots are HIGHLY competitive -- most people coming out of the schoolhouse want to get trial time, and where you're assigned within any individual JAG office is going to be up to the Staff Judge Advocate in charge of that office. So, if you come in with a great background and rave reviews from your instructors at the schoolhouse, you certainly have a better chance of getting a trial counsel (prosecutor) slot from the get-go...however, dollars-to-donuts your first job is going to be in legal assistance. Generally, SJAs want their newbies to cut their teeth working on wills, separation agreements, and landlord-tenant issues before you get rotated into the courtroom. The best way, in my mind, to get trial time quickly is to request a large post -- Fort Stewart, Fort Hood, Fort Bragg -- where there are multiple tenant units (at least 25,000 soldiers) and large military justice sections in each office. Avoid the smaller (and generally nicer) posts like Fort Myer and Fort Bevoir (DC Area), or Fort Carson (Colorado).

That's the Army perspective, but I imagine that it would hold true in all the services.

I agree with this post. In my experience with the Army, you will 99.9% start out in legal assistance. I can't think of any instances where you won't but I can't speak with 100% certainty. The reason for this is that it's the best way to get your feet wet, both legally and in the military. You'll get to interact with usually lower ranked soldiers and learn what it means to be an officer. Most JAGs are direct commissioned and thus the Army has an interest in acclimating you to the military life.

Is Military Justice HIGHLY competitive? I always thought it was eventually attainable, if you wanted it.

[Paichka]

Oh, no, MJ slots are attainable eventually -- I meant that those slots are highly competitive for a first assignment. I should've been more clear. I know a couple of people who slid straight into MJ slots out of the schoolhouse, but those were people with prior service (FLEP officers) who just happened to arrive at an office at the same time that a current trial counsel was transitioning to another job.

[Kobe_Teeth]

Is it possible to get JAG w/o moot court or mock trial? I still have another shot to make it next year and, admittedly, did not put my best effort towards making it this year. I'm just curious as to how vital it is towards an application.

[hasmith]

Is it possible to get JAG w/o moot court or mock trial? I still have another shot to make it next year and, admittedly, did not put my best effort towards making it this year. I'm just curious as to how vital it is towards an application.

I was picked up for Navy JAG without moot court or mock trial. I have no idea how the selection boards work beyond the "best qualified" aspect. I do believe that the Navy does follow this policy based on the very different backgrounds of those extended offers. I have to imagine that the other services are similar.

[Patrick Bateman]

Is it possible to get JAG w/o moot court or mock trial? I still have another shot to make it next year and, admittedly, did not put my best effort towards making it this year. I'm just curious as to how vital it is towards an application.

AF Perspective: It is absolutely possible; just as it is not a de facto requirement to have the Internship for Direct Appointment, moot court/trial team are not mandatory pre-reqs; it just helps and a lot of those selected do have it on their resumes.

As I mentioned above, junior AF JAGs are in the courtroom early and often. It follows that new JAGs should be reasonably capable in the courtroom after being given the proper training. The only real indicators accessions boards have for applicants in law school (vice practicing attorneys) is trial team and moot court. This shows an interest in oral advocacy and litigation; these teams are also generally competitive, so it shows some inherent skill.

Would I recommend one of those two? Absolutely. If you have an otherwise exceptional package (exceptional in the AF sense), would a lack of either kill your chances? Probably not. That said, with selection stats well below 5%, I would be doing everything I could to stand out.

[ArmyOfficer]

I am planning to apply for the 2011 Army Funded Legal Application Proogram in a few months when the application window opens. I have a 167 LSAT score, good GPA, and good OERs. Is there anybody here that was picked up for Army FLEP before and has any hints of what makes a successful packet? Or anybody applying this year that has any thoughts? Thanks.

[Esquire]

If we take the $65k SLRP, we don't get the GI Bill. But if we continue past our initial 4 year tour, can we become re eligible for the GI Bill? Is it a 2 year commitment? How long? I'd like to pass the GI Bill onto my kids.

I may be wrong about any aspect of this post.

[Americana]

My LSO contact emailed the other day about the still unposted Army Reserve JAG results. The LSOs are just as clueless about the timeframe as we are, but he said the delay is just due to an unusually large number of applicants.

Good luck and happy waiting to any other USAR JAG applicants!

[Paichka]

I am planning to apply for the 2011 Army Funded Legal Application Proogram in a few months when the application window opens. I have a 167 LSAT score, good GPA, and good OERs. Is there anybody here that was picked up for Army FLEP before and has any hints of what makes a successful packet? Or anybody applying this year that has any thoughts? Thanks.

I'm a FLEP candidate -- I'll graduate in 2012. The absolute BEST thing that you can have in your packet are detailed, insightful letters of recommendation, PREFERABLY from your brigade commander, discussing your ability to succeed as a brigade-level staff officer (which is what a JAG is, natch). I had three, all from the same unit -- two LTCs (my brigade XO and battalion commander), and one from my brigade commander. All three emphasized my ability to synthesize information, keep my commanders informed, brief well, be calm and confident under pressure, etc etc. If any can discuss your previous legal experience (IE, were you a 15-6 officer ever, or did you ever investigate a FLIPL?) then that's awesome too. However, what's most important about these LORs is that they be personal, from people who can actually talk about you as a person and as an officer.

Too many people get these generic LORs from generals (like their division commander or something) which say absolutely nothing of value (great officer! a credit to the corps!) because it's obvious that the guy wouldn't be able to pick the candidate out of a line up. That being said, if you were ever a general's aide, or a general can give you a legit LOR, then absolutely go with that person. You just need something that will make you stand out from the crowd.

Your LSAT is great, but numbers aren't really what the FLEP board is looking for -- I know people who had 150-ish LSATs who still got picked up. The board is looking for a "total officer" -- so, your OERs and service record (any deployments, awards, that sort of thing) will mean more to them than your grades and LSAT.

Good luck!

[Rocktober2007]

My LSO contact emailed the other day about the still unposted Army Reserve JAG results. The LSOs are just as clueless about the timeframe as we are, but he said the delay is just due to an unusually large number of applicants.

Good luck and happy waiting to any other USAR JAG applicants!

Here's what JARO said about the delay on Facebook:

"The Army RC is undergoing a study on manpower needs at this moment, and the board results will be posted after this is completed. Unfortunately it is beyond this office's power to know when this might be. Thank you for your interest in the JAG Corps. As we say in the shop: MTF..."