DOJ Honors Program 2019-2020 Forum

[Anonymous User]

Yes, already filled out my e-QIP for CRM.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone get any insight if UST is still sending offers? Finalist here but no offer yet.

[Anonymous User]

Received an offer from an EOIR non-OCIJ component, but what I really want is OCIJ so I can be close to family. Has anybody heard of OCIJ making any moves since designating finalists?

[Anonymous User]

Received an offer from an EOIR non-OCIJ component, but what I really want is OCIJ so I can be close to family. Has anybody heard of OCIJ making any moves since designating finalists?

Nothing here. Silent as a mouse.....

[anonuser1988]

Received an offer from an EOIR non-OCIJ component, but what I really want is OCIJ so I can be close to family. Has anybody heard of OCIJ making any moves since designating finalists?

Nothing here. Silent as a mouse.....

Same, nothing here. It does bring me some comfort, though, knowing that (from what I can tell) no one has gotten an offer yet from them, and it's not just me!

[Anonymous User]

Out of curiosity to the OCIJ applicants above me, how many locations did you specify after your interview? I only picked one location on my geographic questionnaire and have made it to the finalist round (radio silence so far, but the interviewer said we would find out via email). I wonder if the locations know how we've ranked them and if they're the ones who ultimately make the finalist designations.

[Anonymous User]

From discussions in previous years, I don't think the locations themselves make the finalist designations/final choices, but there are considerations depending on location (smaller courts tend to have fewer IJs/clerks and may need someone who has more relevant experience than larger courts where there's more support/resources; also the clerks are on 2 year terms so how many clerks a given location needs will depend on how many are leaving at the end of the year vs. sticking around for another year).

[Anonymous User]

Is anyone considering... turning down a DOJ offer? specifically civil rights? Because I am and I don't know if I'm being ridiculous or not.

[Anonymous User]

I know of people turning down OCIJ because of where they got placed, and someone who accepted then reneged on a USAO gig. What specifically is giving you pause? (There are definitely reasonable bases for saying no, IMHO, especially now.) What are your other options? (Anecdotally, if you have a CR offer you probably have other choices.)

[Anonymous User]

Is anyone considering... turning down a DOJ offer? specifically civil rights? Because I am and I don't know if I'm being ridiculous or not.

I don't think it's ridiculous to turn down an offer, even from a Division like Civil Rights. At the end of the day, you've got to do what's best for you. I think people (not necessarily you in particular, but other attorneys and soon-to-be attorneys) get caught up in prestige and feel like they have to take jobs just because they look good. Being an attorney is stressful enough no matter what the circumstances are; you deserve to be in a role where you are happiest. If that means turning down a Civil Rights offer, then by all means go for it.

[Anonymous User]

Is anyone considering... turning down a DOJ offer? specifically civil rights? Because I am and I don't know if I'm being ridiculous or not.

Not ridiculous at all. I am considering turning down my offer for a different federal program, and I know people who have turned it down for biglaw. If I do turn down my offer, I'll post here again so alternates for the component know to keep the dream alive.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone get any offers today?

[Anonymous User]

Is anyone considering... turning down a DOJ offer? specifically civil rights? Because I am and I don't know if I'm being ridiculous or not.

I interviewed with a different division, but I don’t think it’s ridiculous. If you have another opportunity that you’re more interested in pursuing right now, you should do it. The civil rights division isn’t going anywhere, they hire laterals, which I hear is a much less competitive process to get hired through. So it’s not like you won’t have another chance to work there. It’s a great opportunity, but it doesn’t mean it’s necessarily the best opportunity for you right now. Anyways, good luck, it sounds like you have some good options!

[Anonymous User]

I know of people turning down OCIJ because of where they got placed, and someone who accepted then reneged on a USAO gig. What specifically is giving you pause? (There are definitely reasonable bases for saying no, IMHO, especially now.) What are your other options? (Anecdotally, if you have a CR offer you probably have other choices.)

What gives me pause is mainly geography - I'm a west coaster and would like to keep it that way, all else equal. But not just that: DOJ's reputation right now is... bleak, and even if Civil Rights isn't actively doing terrible things, I think it would be demoralizing to work there (esp god forbid if the election goes poorly). Also a tiny bit concerned about stigma, though if DOJ goes back to being respectable under another admin, I think people would forget that.

I'm considering an honors program with an independent regulatory agency, which doesn't solve the DC problem but is much less polarizing, even if not immune from politics. Also considering seeing how the fellowships cycle (EJW etc.) plays out or waiting from the California AG to get it's act together. I'm not REALLY concerned about not getting a job (yet), since it's still so early in the process, but I actually have none of these things in hand, so I'd be going out on a limb to turn it down without another offer.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone get any offers today?

Received an offer for DOJ OCIJ for my first choice court, and Celia said today was the first day they were sending out offers, with the bulk of offers come around 12/9. After the call, I also received an email and was given two weeks to decide. Best of luck to you all!

[Anonymous User]

I know of people turning down OCIJ because of where they got placed, and someone who accepted then reneged on a USAO gig. What specifically is giving you pause? (There are definitely reasonable bases for saying no, IMHO, especially now.) What are your other options? (Anecdotally, if you have a CR offer you probably have other choices.)

Not to completely change the topic, but do you know of people who have gotten OCIJ offers this cycle? Or were you talking about previous years? Still haven’t heard and am getting nervous.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone get any offers today?

Received an offer for DOJ OCIJ for my first choice court, and Celia said today was the first day they were sending out offers, with the bulk of offers come around 12/9. After the call, I also received an email and was given two weeks to decide. Best of luck to you all!

Do you mind saying which court?

[Anonymous User]

Anyone get any offers today?

Received an offer for DOJ OCIJ for my first choice court, and Celia said today was the first day they were sending out offers, with the bulk of offers come around 12/9. After the call, I also received an email and was given two weeks to decide. Best of luck to you all!

Congratulations! If you don't mind, could you say what your first choice court was?

[Anonymous User]

Curious if anyone has received an offer from BIA? Designated finalist before the cut off date but to my knowledge my references have not been checked yet. Thanks.

[Anonymous User]

I know of people turning down OCIJ because of where they got placed, and someone who accepted then reneged on a USAO gig. What specifically is giving you pause? (There are definitely reasonable bases for saying no, IMHO, especially now.) What are your other options? (Anecdotally, if you have a CR offer you probably have other choices.)

Not to completely change the topic, but do you know of people who have gotten OCIJ offers this cycle? Or were you talking about previous years? Still haven’t heard and am getting nervous.

Sorry, previous years. There’s tons of times still to hear from OCIJ this year.

[Anonymous User]

I know of people turning down OCIJ because of where they got placed, and someone who accepted then reneged on a USAO gig. What specifically is giving you pause? (There are definitely reasonable bases for saying no, IMHO, especially now.) What are your other options? (Anecdotally, if you have a CR offer you probably have other choices.)

What gives me pause is mainly geography - I'm a west coaster and would like to keep it that way, all else equal. But not just that: DOJ's reputation right now is... bleak, and even if Civil Rights isn't actively doing terrible things, I think it would be demoralizing to work there (esp god forbid if the election goes poorly). Also a tiny bit concerned about stigma, though if DOJ goes back to being respectable under another admin, I think people would forget that.

I'm considering an honors program with an independent regulatory agency, which doesn't solve the DC problem but is much less polarizing, even if not immune from politics. Also considering seeing how the fellowships cycle (EJW etc.) plays out or waiting from the California AG to get it's act together. I'm not REALLY concerned about not getting a job (yet), since it's still so early in the process, but I actually have none of these things in hand, so I'd be going out on a limb to turn it down without another offer.

This is totally fair. I agree that stigma isn’t so much an issue as whether you’d be doing work you feel good about. FWIW (not much!) I think there are good arguments for both accepting and declining at this point.

[Anonymous User]

I know of people turning down OCIJ because of where they got placed, and someone who accepted then reneged on a USAO gig. What specifically is giving you pause? (There are definitely reasonable bases for saying no, IMHO, especially now.) What are your other options? (Anecdotally, if you have a CR offer you probably have other choices.)

What gives me pause is mainly geography - I'm a west coaster and would like to keep it that way, all else equal. But not just that: DOJ's reputation right now is... bleak, and even if Civil Rights isn't actively doing terrible things, I think it would be demoralizing to work there (esp god forbid if the election goes poorly). Also a tiny bit concerned about stigma, though if DOJ goes back to being respectable under another admin, I think people would forget that.

I'm considering an honors program with an independent regulatory agency, which doesn't solve the DC problem but is much less polarizing, even if not immune from politics. Also considering seeing how the fellowships cycle (EJW etc.) plays out or waiting from the California AG to get it's act together. I'm not REALLY concerned about not getting a job (yet), since it's still so early in the process, but I actually have none of these things in hand, so I'd be going out on a limb to turn it down without another offer.

If you can't let go of politics, the Federal Government is probably not the best place for you to work. Even if the election "goes well" next year, there will eventually be an election where you disagree with the party in power, or even if you agree with the party in power, you disagree with the policy. I say this as someone who has worked within the Federal Government for years because of love for public service. The appointees determine the policy direction of each agency, not the civil employees. There will be times when you disagree with the policy direction, and you will have to let your opinion go because the American people did not elect you into the position. The American people didn't vote for you. That's the whole purpose of the Hatch Act. It's to ensure that federal employees are not partisan and undermining the will of the American people.

So to put simply, if you feel politically passionate about an issue and still want to work in government, it would be better to pursue opportunities in Congress, where political leaning is part of the hiring decision, or a state or local government that you know will lean politically in one direction or the other, and there is not a high chance of that turning over with each election.

Or you only put in a few years under your preferred Administration, and then jump ship when you don't agree, but to be honest, if that is what you want to do, you should be looking at appointee positions instead and gaining connection with the campaign you think is going to win. The Plum Book has a list of all the Presidential Appointee positions.

But on your point about "DOJ's reputation", I completely disagree. DOJ Honors is still a highly respected and competitive process, and people in the legal field recognize the difference between appointee and civil servants. They know that just because you are are civil servant does not mean you agree with everything the Administration is doing. If they don't, then they don't understand how the Federal Government operates.

[Anonymous User]

I know of people turning down OCIJ because of where they got placed, and someone who accepted then reneged on a USAO gig. What specifically is giving you pause? (There are definitely reasonable bases for saying no, IMHO, especially now.) What are your other options? (Anecdotally, if you have a CR offer you probably have other choices.)

What gives me pause is mainly geography - I'm a west coaster and would like to keep it that way, all else equal. But not just that: DOJ's reputation right now is... bleak, and even if Civil Rights isn't actively doing terrible things, I think it would be demoralizing to work there (esp god forbid if the election goes poorly). Also a tiny bit concerned about stigma, though if DOJ goes back to being respectable under another admin, I think people would forget that.

I'm considering an honors program with an independent regulatory agency, which doesn't solve the DC problem but is much less polarizing, even if not immune from politics. Also considering seeing how the fellowships cycle (EJW etc.) plays out or waiting from the California AG to get it's act together. I'm not REALLY concerned about not getting a job (yet), since it's still so early in the process, but I actually have none of these things in hand, so I'd be going out on a limb to turn it down without another offer.

If you can't let go of politics, the Federal Government is probably not the best place for you to work. Even if the election "goes well" next year, there will eventually be an election where you disagree with the party in power, or even if you agree with the party in power, you disagree with the policy. I say this as someone who has worked within the Federal Government for years because of love for public service. The appointees determine the policy direction of each agency, not the civil employees. There will be times when you disagree with the policy direction, and you will have to let your opinion go because the American people did not elect you into the position. The American people didn't vote for you. That's the whole purpose of the Hatch Act. It's to ensure that federal employees are not partisan and undermining the will of the American people.

So to put simply, if you feel politically passionate about an issue and still want to work in government, it would be better to pursue opportunities in Congress, where political leaning is part of the hiring decision, or a state or local government that you know will lean politically in one direction or the other, and there is not a high chance of that turning over with each election.

Or you only put in a few years under your preferred Administration, and then jump ship when you don't agree, but to be honest, if that is what you want to do, you should be looking at appointee positions instead and gaining connection with the campaign you think is going to win. The Plum Book has a list of all the Presidential Appointee positions.

But on your point about "DOJ's reputation", I completely disagree. DOJ Honors is still a highly respected and competitive process, and people in the legal field recognize the difference between appointee and civil servants. They know that just because you are are civil servant does not mean you agree with everything the Administration is doing. If they don't, then they don't understand how the Federal Government operates.

What an awesome post

[Anonymous User]

As someone who also works for the federal government, I partly disagree with the above. Overall, sure. I follow policy set by others and I’m mostly fine with that because that’s my job, that’s what I’m there for. Other people get to set the policy. But I think there are some federal jobs where administration changes have more drastic effects than others, and I also think it’s fair to draw a line about what you are/aren’t willing to do.

I do agree that reasonable people get that DOJ line attorneys are different from the AG. But I think there the political stuff does kind of spill over.

[Anonymous User]

As someone who also works for the federal government, I partly disagree with the above. Overall, sure. I follow policy set by others and I’m mostly fine with that because that’s my job, that’s what I’m there for. Other people get to set the policy. But I think there are some federal jobs where administration changes have more drastic effects than others, and I also think it’s fair to draw a line about what you are/aren’t willing to do.

Absolutely agree with this. Interned with OCIJ and I saw first hand administration-dependent changes which dramatically affected the work, sometimes even within a day's or week's notice.

Congratulations! If you don't mind, could you say what your first choice court was?

SF court