Military Law Forum

[duckmoney]

Yes - she stays back while you are overseas.

Military life is not easy on spouses and children. You will move frequently, deploy, go on temporary duty assignments, and the like. Make sure your spouse is on board with this before you even think about applying - have her talk to other active duty spouses to get the bigger picture. Again, a lot of the nature of active duty service is too abstract to get your arms around unless you come from a military family or have some experience with that way of life.

Thanks for all the help!

[CelticLily]

This thread has been incredibly informative. I'm sorry if this has been asked before but is it possible to apply to more than one JAG program at the same time?

[Patrick Bateman]

This thread has been incredibly informative. I'm sorry if this has been asked before but is it possible to apply to more than one JAG program at the same time?

Well, there are number of different programs (internships, ROTC programs, direct appointment, etc), so this answer could technically vary. As a general rule, however, you can apply to different service branches simultaneously. While we are all Dept of Defense, it is not like there is a master database that will flag your Air Force application with "CelticLily has a pending Army JAG application." I applied to both the Army and AF internships as a 2L, getting into both within about 10 days of each other.

[Rocktober2007]

This thread has been incredibly informative. I'm sorry if this has been asked before but is it possible to apply to more than one JAG program at the same time?

For Army, you can apply to Active Duty, Reserve, and National Guard all at the same time.

[Rocktober2007]

JARO said Army NG results would be out be the second week of June. That would be this week, right? Nothing is posted though...

[Groundie]

Anyone getting ready for the next cycle?

It's far too late to improve (or hurt) my GPA. Working this summer at a decent legal gig. Did the JAG internship. Any last suggestions for someone who's tried to check off most of the boxes but is having difficulty standing out, i.e. getting selected?

Edit: Love the raptor above me. Rawr!

[upnorthguy]

[/quote]

For Army, you can apply to Active Duty, Reserve, and National Guard all at the same time.[/quote]

For NG, I'm not sure why/when you would do that. NG is still a more manual process dealing with the OSM in each state and getting your packet together.
It would not be good form to apply in multiple states at the same time.

[Rocktober2007]

Good point. It'd also be a hassle to apply to multiple states at the same time. I was just saying it was possible to apply to Active, Reserve, and (one state) NG all at the same time if you really wanted.

As for Groundie's question, I have no idea. It's so competitive right now. I was not selected for the Fall 2010 or Spring 2011 boards. I've heard of people who seemed way more qualified than me not being selected, so it makes me wonder if I even have a chance. I'll be putting in another application this fall though. (That is unless I'm picked up by the Reserve board and find a civilian job).

[Rocktober2007]

For anyone else waiting for Army Reserve board results: JARO just updated the website again. Now says that NG results won't be posted until the first week of July and to keep checking for updates on when the Reserve results will be posted.

[trayball23]

Can someone elaborate on the living conditions at the various parts of the Army, Navy and AF JAG training. I am wondering at the various phases if you are required to live in barracks or if you live off base, if you are given liberty. Does it make sense to move your family out with you? Will you even be allowed to see them? I know each branch has different steps in their training. If someone can take the time to tell me the living conditions and restrictions in each part I would really appreciate it

[Patrick Bateman]

Can someone elaborate on the living conditions at the various parts of the Army, Navy and AF JAG training. I am wondering at the various phases if you are required to live in barracks or if you live off base, if you are given liberty. Does it make sense to move your family out with you? Will you even be allowed to see them? I know each branch has different steps in their training. If someone can take the time to tell me the living conditions and restrictions in each part I would really appreciate it

For the Air Force:

This answer will vary depending on your commissioning path - OYCP/GLP involve field training with other ROTC units at Maxwell. I do not have any direct knowledge on this so I'll let someone better educated on that process speak to it.

If you go through Direct Appointment (DAP) you will have your 6.5 weeks at Officer Training School. There you are living in the OTS dorms. It is a training environment were you will be largely limited to the OTS campus and then Maxwell AFB. You will not be spending time with your family and the bulk of your time will be accounted for. For a training environment, the dorms are solid enough. Was pretty close to my freshman dorm in college. Two twin beds, a roommate, two sinks, one bathroom/shower.

After OTS, you will either head to your base or transition directly into JASOC. At JASOC you will be put up in billeting, the AFB hotel. The hotel rooms are like any three star hotel - nice (especially by military standards) but it ain't the Ritz. In my JASOC class we had some spouses come and stay the weekends but that was largely it. The rooms are not big enough to where you want a spouse and kids running around. JASOC is a temporary duty assignment (10 weeks) so any family traveling down to see you is at their own expense. You are also in class all day with homework and studying at night, so you don't have a ton of free hours during school days. The weekends are wide open though.

[Journeybound]

I'm interning with an AF JAG office for the summer, and I'm pretty sure that direct appointment is different from commissioning through OTS (I'm not sure if or how this happens). If you are accepted through direct appointment, they will send you a letter that basically commissions you. It's really strange. You go to a notary, swear the oath, and you are a 1st LT. Then, later when they have a training slot open for you, they send you to COT (commissioned officer training), not OTS. This is different from OTS, because you are already commissioned. You go there with other lawyers/doctors. It's really a joke compared to ROTC Field Training or OTS. It only last three (3) weeks, and they try really hard not to fail you. They don't want their precious doctors to fail because they can't PT like the 18 year olds at basic...

JASOC is much longer, like the poster above said.

During your career, you might be deployed. But it sounds like this doesn't happen that often. And if it does, it's only for 6 months.

[Patrick Bateman]

I'm interning with an AF JAG office for the summer, and I'm pretty sure that direct appointment is different from commissioning through OTS (I'm not sure if or how this happens). If you are accepted through direct appointment, they will send you a letter that basically commissions you. It's really strange. You go to a notary, swear the oath, and you are a 1st LT. Then, later when they have a training slot open for you, they send you to COT (commissioned officer training), not OTS. This is different from OTS, because you are already commissioned. You go there with other lawyers/doctors. It's really a joke compared to ROTC Field Training or OTS. It only last three (3) weeks, and they try really hard not to fail you. They don't want their precious doctors to fail because they can't PT like the 18 year olds at basic...

JASOC is much longer, like the poster above said.

During your career, you might be deployed. But it sounds like this doesn't happen that often. And if it does, it's only for 6 months.

You are in the ballpark. Congrats on the internship by the way - single best way to distinguish yourself for Direct Appointment.

Officer Training School is composed of both Basic Officer Training (all line officer positions but JAG) and Commissioned Officer Training (JAG and then the non-line: Medical Group, Chaplains). OTS owns both BOT and COT. It is six weeks +/-, not three. You are correct in regard to commissioning in respect to COT - we commission prior to attending training and go through COT with rank. For the JAGs, I would agree that it is not challenging for people that just graduated law school and passed the bar. Most of us are Type A and have a proven track record of succeeding academically. For MDG and the Chaplains, it is a mixed bag. Some excellent officers, some people that should probably not be in uniform.

In respect to deployments, there is no might about it. I went at the 18 month mark and am 95% going again within the next 12 months. All due respect, but six months away from everything is not an insignificant amount of time. A draw down in Afghanistan will impact the volume of JAGs headed over, but I cannot think of a time when I had any less than 5 AF JAG friends either at TF 134, or now, TF 435. There are at least 4-5 at TF 435 right now out of my JASOC class alone. Depending on your MAJCOM, your particular base may not have many people in the AEF bucket, but in my neck of the woods, it is almost a sure thing one will do at least a 179 day tour in their first four years. A fair portion of us may see two or pick up a 365 day tour.

[Giddy-Up]

All due respect, but six months away from everything is not an insignificant amount of time.

I agree. The only time a 6 month deployment seems short is when you are doing a 12 month deployment and are at month 6.

[TheKingintheNorth]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but as a JAG, how much of your career can you expect to spend stateside or in non-combat zones where your wife could be with you? On the other hand, how frequent are deployments to combat zones?

That said, there are also JAGs that find themselves in legitimate action - one of my JAG School classmates is the first AF JAG to be awarded the Army Combat Action Badge for his part in a firefight in the 'Stan. That is the exception to the rule but is absolutely within the realm of possibility.

What if this is something a JAG would want? Are there positions where a JAG, across all branches, will be significantly more combat-prone than others? Can you volunteer for it? Deploying sounds awesome.


Also, how do most JAGs sort out their loans? Does the military cover them under certain conditions? Can you rely on your LRAP if you go to a school with a decent one?

[Patrick Bateman]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but as a JAG, how much of your career can you expect to spend stateside or in non-combat zones where your wife could be with you? On the other hand, how frequent are deployments to combat zones?

That said, there are also JAGs that find themselves in legitimate action - one of my JAG School classmates is the first AF JAG to be awarded the Army Combat Action Badge for his part in a firefight in the 'Stan. That is the exception to the rule but is absolutely within the realm of possibility.

What if this is something a JAG would want? Are there positions where a JAG, across all branches, will be significantly more combat-prone than others? Can you volunteer for it? Deploying sounds awesome.


Also, how do most JAGs sort out their loans? Does the military cover them under certain conditions? Can you rely on your LRAP if you go to a school with a decent one?

As a general rule, it is important to note that JAGs across the services are not combat arms officers. We are specialized staff officers with the primary task to advise commanders on legal issues. We spent years in law school, not Ranger School - the brass is not going to try and fit a square peg into a circle. If you truly want a career that enables you to be a trigger puller and door kicker, JAG is not your AFSC/MOS. My buddy earning the CAB is exceptional, in all senses of the word.

That said, Army and Marine JAGs, depending on the unit to which they are assigned while deployed, will probably find themselves with a higher probability of direct action. Keep in mind that generally, the lowest level to which a JAG is assigned in the Army is a battalion. The majority of direct action in the AOR is going to be at the squad/platoon/company level, so battalion staff officers are still not going to be in the thick of things. That said, a significant amount of personnel have been killed through indirect fire (mortars, IEDs) which target FOBs, conveys, and the like. So even if you are a Fobbit, there is still a very real chance of danger.

Army and Marine JAGs also go through far, far more in the way of ground pounder training. If you want to get dirty and do some land nav, Army and USMC will give you that opportunity. Marines send their JAGs though TBS and are trained as infantry platoon commanders. Without question their training is the most physically demanding for JAGs but also exposes you to training most JAGs will never experience.

Both the Air Force and Army have loan repayment programs for up to $65,000 of their loans. At least for the AF, that money counts as W2 income and generally disqualifies individuals from law school LRAP programs. This thread has some more information on the loan programs but the best source is to contact JAX (AF) or JARO (USA) directly.

[TheKingintheNorth]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but as a JAG, how much of your career can you expect to spend stateside or in non-combat zones where your wife could be with you? On the other hand, how frequent are deployments to combat zones?

That said, there are also JAGs that find themselves in legitimate action - one of my JAG School classmates is the first AF JAG to be awarded the Army Combat Action Badge for his part in a firefight in the 'Stan. That is the exception to the rule but is absolutely within the realm of possibility.

What if this is something a JAG would want? Are there positions where a JAG, across all branches, will be significantly more combat-prone than others? Can you volunteer for it? Deploying sounds awesome.


Also, how do most JAGs sort out their loans? Does the military cover them under certain conditions? Can you rely on your LRAP if you go to a school with a decent one?

As a general rule, it is important to note that JAGs across the services are not combat arms officers. We are specialized staff officers with the primary task to advise commanders on legal issues. We spent years in law school, not Ranger School - the brass is not going to try and fit a square peg into a circle. If you truly want a career that enables you to be a trigger puller and door kicker, JAG is not your AFSC/MOS. My buddy earning the CAB is exceptional, in all senses of the word.

That said, Army and Marine JAGs, depending on the unit to which they are assigned while deployed, will probably find themselves with a higher probability of direct action. Keep in mind that generally, the lowest level to which a JAG is assigned in the Army is a battalion. The majority of direct action in the AOR is going to be at the squad/platoon/company level, so battalion staff officers are still not going to be in the thick of things. That said, a significant amount of personnel have been killed through indirect fire (mortars, IEDs) which target FOBs, conveys, and the like. So even if you are a Fobbit, there is still a very real chance of danger.

Army and Marine JAGs also go through far, far more in the way of ground pounder training. If you want to get dirty and do some land nav, Army and USMC will give you that opportunity. Marines send their JAGs though TBS and are trained as infantry platoon commanders. Without question their training is the most physically demanding for JAGs but also exposes you to training most JAGs will never experience.

Both the Air Force and Army have loan repayment programs for up to $65,000 of their loans. At least for the AF, that money counts as W2 income and generally disqualifies individuals from law school LRAP programs. This thread has some more information on the loan programs but the best source is to contact JAX (AF) or JARO (USA) directly.

Thanks!

I was unaware that JAG officers even went out of country frequently before this thread. When you say "primary task to advise commanders on legal issues" does this involve mostly internal affairs like soldiers breaking the law and how to deal with it or "external" (i don't know the right word for it) things like how to craft plans and strategies around the legal issues (treaties, prisoners, rules of engagment?, what else?) at play? Is that even a coherent dichotomy?

[Paichka]

I was unaware that JAG officers even went out of country frequently before this thread. When you say "primary task to advise commanders on legal issues" does this involve mostly internal affairs like soldiers breaking the law and how to deal with it or "external" (i don't know the right word for it) things like how to craft plans and strategies around the legal issues (treaties, prisoners, rules of engagment?, what else?) at play? Is that even a coherent dichotomy?

Great handle, btw.

So, to answer your question, both. In a typical law office, we have several sections -- military justice (criminal law), administrative law, environmental law, claims, and legal assistance, to name a few. Military justice deals with actual prosecutions of misconduct. Admin law deals with advising the command on various issues, generally ethical. Legal assistance is wills, powers of attorney, that sort of thing. When you work at one of these legal offices, you are typically working for the garrison commander (the guy in charge of your base), or the division commander (the guy in charge of the largest unit on your base).

As a battalion or brigade level JAG officer (a BJA), you do a little bit of everything. You are the commander's legal adviser -- you review Article 15 (non-judicial punishment -- not courts martial) packets to make sure that they are legally sufficient, you review contracts, and (when deployed, if necessary) you advise the command on operational law -- dealing with detainees, rules of engagement, that sort of thing. This last bit depends entirely on the type of unit you're assigned to -- if you're assigned to a combat brigade, you'll be doing OPLAW. If you're assigned to a sustainment brigade, or a brigade that doesn't deal directly with detainees or enemy combatants, you will probably not be doing any OPLAW. As a BJA, you will probably not be prosecuting cases -- prosecutions are handled by the main JAG offices, and defenses are handled by a completely separate office of dedicated defense attorneys.

[allAF]

Can someone elaborate on the living conditions at the various parts of the Army, Navy and AF JAG training. I am wondering at the various phases if you are required to live in barracks or if you live off base, if you are given liberty. Does it make sense to move your family out with you? Will you even be allowed to see them? I know each branch has different steps in their training. If someone can take the time to tell me the living conditions and restrictions in each part I would really appreciate it

For the Air Force:

This answer will vary depending on your commissioning path - OYCP/GLP involve field training with other ROTC units at Maxwell. I do not have any direct knowledge on this so I'll let someone better educated on that process speak to it.

If you go through Direct Appointment (DAP) you will have your 6.5 weeks at Officer Training School. There you are living in the OTS dorms. It is a training environment were you will be largely limited to the OTS campus and then Maxwell AFB. You will not be spending time with your family and the bulk of your time will be accounted for. For a training environment, the dorms are solid enough. Was pretty close to my freshman dorm in college. Two twin beds, a roommate, two sinks, one bathroom/shower.

Regarding OYCP/GLP: field training should be very similar to OTS. Your first likely exposure to ROTC and officer training will be at the end of the semester before field training (hopefully you will spend at least a little time with the ROTC cadets so you can see what they do and what is expected of them). Field training is normally 4 weeks, but JAGs are assigned to an additional remedial academic week. That first academic week was pretty relaxed and served as a nice way to ease into the more demanding regular field training. It includes morning P/T, drill lessons, and many hours in a classroom over that week to teach you what all the other cadets learned in their first two years of ROTC classes. It's mostly history and some human resources/about the military information. We stayed in pretty decent dorms at one of the local colleges there, and we had our own rooms and access to cell phones. No visitors, though.

After that first week, we were bussed over to Maxwell and began the real field training. The facilities for the in-garrison portion of field training are on the same campus that is used for OTS. The rooms are decently nice dorm-style rooms. The only difference from the above description is that we had 4 cadets to a room, however, so it was a bit more crowded. The rooms aren't perfect - we did not have hot water for the first two weeks. We didn't really miss it until we had it later. We did see a lot of COT folks walking around in PT gear rather than our hot ABUs - it looked so nice and relaxing compared to what we were expected to do.

After the in-garrison portion, we spent two weeks or so at Camp Shelby, which was very, very hot (understatement). The housing tents are air-conditioned, though, and are really pretty nice. You have about 12 people per tent, with metal bunk beds that sleep pretty well.

At the beginning of field training, you have to give all your electronic devices to flight commanders who hold them for you for the duration of the training. That means the only contact you have with the outside world is through letters. You do not get any liberty with the slight exception of Sundays at Camp Shelby during church time. Since field training is only 5 weeks, and since you wouldn't get to see them anyway, it doesn't make sense to haul your family out there. Even people local to the Maxwell area didn't get visitors or time off to leave.

All that being said, people with families do participate successfully in ROTC. One of the three to finish was married with at least one child.

As a side note: ROTC field training (and likely OTS) requires a quick learning curve, but it is absolutely do-able. In my experience, nobody wants to see a JAG officer fail out. BUT health issues, be they injuries or long-term problems - CAN force you out of the program. Two of the 5 OYCP/GLP people at my field training did not complete the program for health reasons - one for a silly yet serious running accident/injury she got on the very first day that became seriously infected, and one for a newly manifested serious underlying health problem. Two of the rest of us experience some kind of injury (one infection and one sprain) that jeopardized our ability to complete, although we persevered. Absolutely do your best to avoid preventable injuries - that's the quickest way to find yourself out of the program. To my knowledge, only one of the 1 of us did NOT get injured or have a health issue. Maybe we were a freakishly injury-prone group, but I'm just sayin'. Lots of regular ROTC cadets also got injuries, became sick with colds, or had heat issues, so I think it's just evidence that the program can be physically demanding.

If anyone has questions about OYCP or GLP, feel free to PM me!

[Patrick Bateman]

Paichka's answer covers a lot of the Air Force experience as well, though the AF has some differences simply due a different organizational structure.

At a traditional (non-deployed) Wing (eqiv to Army Brigade in size), the O-3 JAGs will be split between civil law positions (environmental law, labor law, operations law, legal assistance, etc) and military justice positions (Article 15s, Admin Discharges, etc). Generally both civil and MJ JAGs also have their own court-martial case load that they are handling on top of their primary duties. At my present base, which is on the busy side, I generally have had 4-5 courts in my hopper, from anywhere between a few days before trial to just receiving the report of investigation.

Deploying mixes that all up. AF JAGs deploy as IAs (Individual Augmentee) which means we leave our base and report to our deployed unit as an individual. My home office presses on without me and my gaining deployed unit adds me to the fold, usually directly replacing someone that just rotated back to the States.

Our positions while deployed can vary widely. We have AEW, Air Expeditionary Wings, which are pretty much clones of normal AFBs but are in a foreign country supporting efforts in the AOR. An AF JAG in this type of deployment might have a traditional sort of duty, working military justice issues that come up on the base. They may also be in an operational law capacity, advising the Commander on LOAC, ROE, etc. There are also a ton of Detainee Operations positions for JAGs, spread between Guantanamo, Baghdad, and Bagram. You also have fiscal law positions. Once you reach O-4, you can do ops law deployments to the Combined Air Operations Center which is hardcore LOE, LOAC work.

[Americana]

Thanks to all for providing insight and info into The JAG Experience and application process.

Anyone else still waiting on the Army Reserve selection results from the April board? My LSO contact basically told me in April that there's really no established timetable and the only sure thing is that I'll be waiting... and waiting... and waiting some more.

[Rocktober2007]

Thanks to all for providing insight and info into the JAG experience and application process.

Anyone else still waiting on the Army Reserve selection results from the April board? My LSO contact basically told me in April that there's really no established timetable and the only sure thing is that I'll be waiting... and waiting... and waiting some more.

Me. How long do you think we'll have to wait? NG results are supposed to be posted the first week in July, so maybe by the end of July? Seems like this is the first time they have split up the NG and Reserve results. I wonder what that means.

[Americana]

Thanks to all for providing insight and info into the JAG experience and application process.

Anyone else still waiting on the Army Reserve selection results from the April board? My LSO contact basically told me in April that there's really no established timetable and the only sure thing is that I'll be waiting... and waiting... and waiting some more.

Me. How long do you think we'll have to wait? NG results are supposed to be posted the first week in July, so maybe by the end of July? Seems like this is the first time they have split up the NG and Reserve results. I wonder what that means.

While I have virtually no basis for this opinion other than the timetable of the last board results, I can't imagine we'd have to wait later than mid-July. That would be three months after the application deadline, and a month past mid-June, which someone on here said was the previous tentative Reserve selection release date.

I would imagine JAG Reserve officer selection is not too high on the current priority list for JAG or for the Army in general. Regardless, it is slightly nerve-racking. After waiting for LSAT scores, law school decision letters, and bar results, I thought I was done with waiting to hear potentially life-changing law related decisions. Not to mention my wife and employer are both getting pretty anxious to find out whether I'll be gone for four months.

Good luck Jess. Let me know if you hear anything!

[Patrick Bateman]

Thanks to all for providing insight and info into the JAG experience and application process.

Anyone else still waiting on the Army Reserve selection results from the April board? My LSO contact basically told me in April that there's really no established timetable and the only sure thing is that I'll be waiting... and waiting... and waiting some more.

Me. How long do you think we'll have to wait? NG results are supposed to be posted the first week in July, so maybe by the end of July? Seems like this is the first time they have split up the NG and Reserve results. I wonder what that means.

After waiting for LSAT scores, law school decision letters, and bar results, I thought I was done with waiting to hear potentially life-changing law related decisions. Not to mention my wife and employer are both getting pretty anxious to find out whether I'll be gone for four months.

Just wait until you are waiting to hear about PCS orders, deployment orders, etc. This is just the beginning!

[Americana]

Just wait until you are waiting to hear about PCS orders, deployment orders, etc. This is just the beginning!

That's what I hear PB... even worse than waiting around for slow judges to rule on motions. Good times!