Military Law Forum

[zanda]

Anyone heard back from Air Force OGC?

or Navy OGC for that matter?

[Rocktober2007]

Army Reserve questions:

1. Do you need to interview with someone from the LSO that you would like to serve with (as indicated at --LinkRemoved-- )? Or is interviewing with an FSO that is visiting your law school enough (as indicated in the June instructions located here --LinkRemoved-- )?

2. Does anyone know when the next reserve board will be?

Thanks in advance

[boston]

Question for those that currently serve, how realistic would it be for me to be accepted as enlisted officer in the Navy and not as a JAG? Applying for JAG has made me realized how much I really want to serve. I am in my second semester of 2L so I would like to at least finish out the degree. I would be shooting for a June 2012 enlistment.

Thanks in advance for the advice

[Rotor]

Question for those that currently serve, how realistic would it be for me to be accepted as enlisted officer in the Navy and not as a JAG? Applying for JAG has made me realized how much I really want to serve. I am in my second semester of 2L so I would like to at least finish out the degree. I would be shooting for a June 2012 enlistment.

Thanks in advance for the advice

Not a currently serving officer, but I know I can address your question.

First, without trying to be pedantic, I want to make sure you have the lingo right so that you don't get burned by some recruiter when you ask for the wrong thing. Since you already have your degree, barring some sort of personal preference to be enlisted, you should be asking about "commissioning" as an officer (not "enlisting"). The services all need great enlisted personnel, and I had a few who worked for me who came in with degrees, but they had fathers or uncles who were Chief Petty Officers and wanted to "work for a living."

If you commission without getting JAG, you most likely will be assigned as an "Unrestricted Line Officer" and given the opportunity to request Aviation (your best choice of course ), Surface Line (ship drivers), Submarines (duh...) or SEALs (bad a$$ MFs who would have just laughed at me).

It is technically possible for you to lateral into JAG at a later date but, based on when I was in a couple of years ago, it is unlikely. Not only do you have to get accepted by JAG (JD in hand would help), but you have to get the permission of the community you'd be leaving and often they don't like spending $$$ for training you only to have you bail to another community. Ultimately, it will come down to needs of the Navy. By no means should you count on that as a viable career path.

The other thing you'll want to consider is the long-term impact of your decision to do a non-JD job following graduation. Sure you may stay 20+ years and retire out of the service, but your plan should also take into account that when you get to the end of your required service time you may want to rejoin the civilian world. Will a 4-5 year "break" dissuade future legal employers? As a 2L I probably won't be much help here, but I think conventional TLS wisdom would say that a break of that length wouldn't be good.

By all means-- if serving your country has become your passion, go for it. Just be sure you don't close any doors behind you on your way in.

[boston]

Question for those that currently serve, how realistic would it be for me to be accepted as enlisted officer in the Navy and not as a JAG? Applying for JAG has made me realized how much I really want to serve. I am in my second semester of 2L so I would like to at least finish out the degree. I would be shooting for a June 2012 enlistment.

Thanks in advance for the advice

Not a currently serving officer, but I know I can address your question.

First, without trying to be pedantic, I want to make sure you have the lingo right so that you don't get burned by some recruiter when you ask for the wrong thing. Since you already have your degree, barring some sort of personal preference to be enlisted, you should be asking about "commissioning" as an officer (not "enlisting"). The services all need great enlisted personnel, and I had a few who worked for me who came in with degrees, but they had fathers or uncles who were Chief Petty Officers and wanted to "work for a living."

If you commission without getting JAG, you most likely will be assigned as an "Unrestricted Line Officer" and given the opportunity to request Aviation (your best choice of course ), Surface Line (ship drivers), Submarines (duh...) or SEALs (bad a$$ MFs who would have just laughed at me).

It is technically possible for you to lateral into JAG at a later date but, based on when I was in a couple of years ago, it is unlikely. Not only do you have to get accepted by JAG (JD in hand would help), but you have to get the permission of the community you'd be leaving and often they don't like spending $$$ for training you only to have you bail to another community. Ultimately, it will come down to needs of the Navy. By no means should you count on that as a viable career path.

The other thing you'll want to consider is the long-term impact of your decision to do a non-JD job following graduation. Sure you may stay 20+ years and retire out of the service, but your plan should also take into account that when you get to the end of your required service time you may want to rejoin the civilian world. Will a 4-5 year "break" dissuade future legal employers? As a 2L I probably won't be much help here, but I think conventional TLS wisdom would say that a break of that length wouldn't be good.

By all means-- if serving your country has become your passion, go for it. Just be sure you don't close any doors behind you on your way in.

Thanks for the rapid response and the information on the correct military language (I'm a complete novice on that aspect).

I wouldn't consider myself a typical law student. I currently go nights at a TTT and won't have to worry about a great amount of debt when I graduate. I went to law school in the hope that it would help my career in 10-15 years, not right away. It is a pipe dream but the ideal situation for me would be to have the opportunity to serve for 10 years in the Navy and then transfer over to a federal law enforcement agency (so the idea of scaring away legal employers doesn't really worry me).

[Rotor]

Thanks for the rapid response and the information on the correct military language (I'm a complete novice on that aspect).

Most people out there today are. That's why I wanted to let you know, but didn't want to come off as a db in doing so.

I wouldn't consider myself a typical law student. I currently go nights at a TTT and won't have to worry about a great amount of debt when I graduate. I went to law school in the hope that it would help my career in 10-15 years, not right away. It is a pipe dream but the ideal situation for me would be to have the opportunity to serve for 10 years in the Navy and then transfer over to a federal law enforcement agency (so the idea of scaring away legal employers doesn't really scare me).

Great. Just as long as you're thinking about it, that's all we can do.

I can tell you I wouldn't have served 20+ years if I didn't enjoy every minute of it. (OK, maybe I didn't enjoy every minute at that particular minute, but...).

All the best to you as you make your decision. And if you deside to serve: thank you.

[boston]

Thanks for the rapid response and the information on the correct military language (I'm a complete novice on that aspect).

Most people out there today are. That's why I wanted to let you know, but didn't want to come off as a db in doing so.

I wouldn't consider myself a typical law student. I currently go nights at a TTT and won't have to worry about a great amount of debt when I graduate. I went to law school in the hope that it would help my career in 10-15 years, not right away. It is a pipe dream but the ideal situation for me would be to have the opportunity to serve for 10 years in the Navy and then transfer over to a federal law enforcement agency (so the idea of scaring away legal employers doesn't really scare me).

Great. Just as long as you're thinking about it, that's all we can do.

I can tell you I wouldn't have served 20+ years if I didn't enjoy every minute of it. (OK, maybe I didn't enjoy every minute at that particular minute, but...).

All the best to you as you make your decision. And if you deside to serve: thank you.

My only concern is that I did not receive my undergraduate degree in a science or technical field. Is there is any evidence that could be a hold up in receiving a commission?

[Rotor]

My only concern is that I did not receive my undergraduate degree in a science or technical field. Is there is any evidence that could be a hold up in receiving a commission?

It won't keep you from getting your commission, but will keep you out of some career fields: e.g. Submarines/Nuclear Power.

Indeed, IMHO the best officers come from humanities backgrounds ( BS/MA in English here). To excel, you will need to have a good technical aptitude for nearly any field, though.

[cake]

It is a pipe dream but the ideal situation for me would be to have the opportunity to serve for 10 years in the Navy and then transfer over to a federal law enforcement agency (so the idea of scaring away legal employers doesn't really worry me).

If you want to be an 1811, make sure the age caps don't disqualify you 10 in the future. IIRC, most of them won't take you after 35.

[SocalPizza]

Air Force OYCP results came out last cycle on March 4. Any reason to believe it will be sooner? I'm already anxious even though the board hasn't started meeting yet. Sigh.

[boston]

My only concern is that I did not receive my undergraduate degree in a science or technical field. Is there is any evidence that could be a hold up in receiving a commission?

It won't keep you from getting your commission, but will keep you out of some career fields: e.g. Submarines/Nuclear Power.

Indeed, IMHO the best officers come from humanities backgrounds ( BS/MA in English here). To excel, you will need to have a good technical aptitude for nearly any field, though.

Thanks for all the advice. Did you join immediately after receiving your Masters?

[Rotor]

My only concern is that I did not receive my undergraduate degree in a science or technical field. Is there is any evidence that could be a hold up in receiving a commission?

It won't keep you from getting your commission, but will keep you out of some career fields: e.g. Submarines/Nuclear Power.

Indeed, IMHO the best officers come from humanities backgrounds ( BS/MA in English here). To excel, you will need to have a good technical aptitude for nearly any field, though.

Thanks for all the advice. Did you join immediately after receiving your Masters?

I am an Academy grad and got my MA while on active duty (on the Navy's dime!).

[Baylan]

Anyone know exactly when the February AF board will meet? My official transcript is *still* incomplete (missing 1 grade) and I'm hoping that I can, y'know, actually get my application in before it meets.

[Texan09]

Anyone know exactly when the February AF board will meet? My official transcript is *still* incomplete (missing 1 grade) and I'm hoping that I can, y'know, actually get my application in before it meets.

I may have misunderstood your question, but if not: Packets had to be complete before the SJA you interviewed with sent them off. That happened already because they are due in DC tomorrow for the Feb. board. Odds are your packet was already sent without your grades.

[Baylan]

Anyone know exactly when the February AF board will meet? My official transcript is *still* incomplete (missing 1 grade) and I'm hoping that I can, y'know, actually get my application in before it meets.

I may have misunderstood your question, but if not: Packets had to be complete before the SJA you interviewed with sent them off. That happened already because they are due in DC tomorrow for the Feb. board. Odds are your packet was already sent without your grades.

I'm well aware that the package was already sent in - I had no grades when I interviewed, and still do not have a complete transcript. Would like to actually get it in before the board meets so that they have something to judge me on...

[Mroberts3]

Anyone know exactly when the February AF board will meet? My official transcript is *still* incomplete (missing 1 grade) and I'm hoping that I can, y'know, actually get my application in before it meets.

I may have misunderstood your question, but if not: Packets had to be complete before the SJA you interviewed with sent them off. That happened already because they are due in DC tomorrow for the Feb. board. Odds are your packet was already sent without your grades.

I'm well aware that the package was already sent in - I had no grades when I interviewed, and still do not have a complete transcript. Would like to actually get it in before the board meets so that they have something to judge me on...

I'm in a similar situation. I have all my grades in, but the only transcript I can get from the law school is an unofficial grade report. I gave this to the SJA last week so the board would have something to look at because the official transcript from the university registrar won't be available until MID Feb! I'm just hoping they trust the unofficial report and and place my package in the "automatically accept when grades are confirmed correct" pile.

On the plus side, there is no way we are the only ones dealing with this. I would suspect at least half the GLP applicants do not have 100% official grades/transcripts ready by Feb 1. Just some wishful thinking...

[Texan09]

Anyone know exactly when the February AF board will meet? My official transcript is *still* incomplete (missing 1 grade) and I'm hoping that I can, y'know, actually get my application in before it meets.

I may have misunderstood your question, but if not: Packets had to be complete before the SJA you interviewed with sent them off. That happened already because they are due in DC tomorrow for the Feb. board. Odds are your packet was already sent without your grades.

I'm well aware that the package was already sent in - I had no grades when I interviewed, and still do not have a complete transcript. Would like to actually get it in before the board meets so that they have something to judge me on...

Your best bet to get find out when the board meets, and if you can even turn in your grades after Feb. 1, would be to call or e-mail Capt DeSio. She is the chief recruiting attorney for AF JAG. You can find her contact info at http://www.jagusaf.hq.af.mil. Maybe you were well aware of that too. Either way, the info may be useful to someone else.

[TopClock]

To the commissioned JAG officers who frequent this board:

I'm a Big Law attorney in his early 30's and and would like to serve in one of the armed services JAG Corps (preferably the Army).

A potential complication is that, as a member of my BigLaw firm, I've done some pro bono work representing Guantanamo detainees. I never flew down to Cuba or anything like that (though those with whom I worked certainly did); my work as an associate was confined usually to doing research, writing briefs, and advising other attorneys. My firm's received civil rights awards for this representation and I've actually spoken publicly against the Bush-era Justice and Defense Departments' treatment of detainees (though always in terms of patriotic values and never attacking the military).

How do you think these activities may affect my chances of being selected for commissioning as a JAG officer? Should I let this aspect of my resume take a back seat, or attack the issue up front in personal statements? After all, I have no regrets and am not ashamed of the work I did. I believe firmly that every accused individual is entitled to representation and some basic level of due process. I felt (and still feel) that the Bush administration did not live up to these values, and I know plenty of JAG officers who themselves represent and have represented detainees feel the same way.

Any idea how to go at this issue in an FSO interview and in the application generally? Thanks in advance.

[Patrick Bateman]

To the commissioned JAG officers who frequent this board:

I'm a Big Law attorney in his early 30's and and would like to serve in one of the armed services JAG Corps (preferably the Army).

A potential complication is that, as a member of my BigLaw firm, I've done some pro bono work representing Guantanamo detainees. I never flew down to Cuba or anything like that (though those with whom I worked certainly did); my work as an associate was confined usually to doing research, writing briefs, and advising other attorneys. My firm's received civil rights awards for this representation and I've actually spoken publicly against the Bush-era Justice and Defense Departments' treatment of detainees (though always in terms of patriotic values and never attacking the military).

How do you think these activities may affect my chances of being selected for commissioning as a JAG officer? Should I let this aspect of my resume take a back seat, or attack the issue up front in personal statements? After all, I have no regrets and am not ashamed of the work I did. I believe firmly that every accused individual is entitled to representation and some basic level of due process. I felt (and still feel) that the Bush administration did not live up to these values, and I know plenty of JAG officers who themselves represent and have represented detainees feel the same way.

Any idea how to go at this issue in an FSO interview and in the application generally? Thanks in advance.

There are dozens of Judge Advocates who serve with Office of Military Commissions - Defense. These are all active duty and reserve JAGs that are spending 2-3 years of their careers defending the dirt bags held at GTMO. The lead defense attorney for Omar Khadr was in fact an Army LTC. I’m fairly certain that most of the OMC-D counsel believe in the exact some principles you noted. I think the way you have explained it for this post is dead on and appropriate for an FSO interview – in your opinion, due process is a critical element of our system that extends to even unprivileged enemy combatants captured outside of the United States.

[TopClock]

There are dozens of Judge Advocates who serve with Office of Military Commissions - Defense. These are all active duty and reserve JAGs that are spending 2-3 years of their careers defending the dirt bags held at GTMO. The lead defense attorney for Omar Khadr was in fact an Army LTC. I’m fairly certain that most of the OMC-D counsel believe in the exact some principles you noted. I think the way you have explained it for this post is dead on and appropriate for an FSO interview – in your opinion, due process is a critical element of our system that extends to even unprivileged enemy combatants captured outside of the United States.

Thanks for your response, Captain. Regarding when to talk about my pro bono work, do you think it better to get in front of it by addressing the issue in my personal statement and/or raising it in the FSO interview? Or conversely, should I approach more quietly, addressing the issue only if the FSO raises it but otherwise not giving it too much attention? Essentially, it's a question of "take advantage of a chance to turn the discussion in my favor" vs. "JAG selection officials aren't stupid and if they have concerns they'll let me know." Given the accession rates compared with the number of applications, I don't want to get dinged for something I could have explained but failed to; but likewise, I don't want to come across as sounding like I'm apologizing for myself.

Thanks again for your help.

[Patrick Bateman]

There are dozens of Judge Advocates who serve with Office of Military Commissions - Defense. These are all active duty and reserve JAGs that are spending 2-3 years of their careers defending the dirt bags held at GTMO. The lead defense attorney for Omar Khadr was in fact an Army LTC. I’m fairly certain that most of the OMC-D counsel believe in the exact some principles you noted. I think the way you have explained it for this post is dead on and appropriate for an FSO interview – in your opinion, due process is a critical element of our system that extends to even unprivileged enemy combatants captured outside of the United States.

Thanks for your response, Captain. Regarding when to talk about my pro bono work, do you think it better to get in front of it by addressing the issue in my personal statement and/or raising it in the FSO interview? Or conversely, should I approach more quietly, addressing the issue only if the FSO raises it but otherwise not giving it too much attention? Essentially, it's a question of "take advantage of a chance to turn the discussion in my favor" vs. "JAG selection officials aren't stupid and if they have concerns they'll let me know." Given the accession rates compared with the number of applications, I don't want to get dinged for something I could have explained but failed to; but likewise, I don't want to come across as sounding like I'm apologizing for myself.

Thanks again for your help.

I'm going to PM you on this one.

[oberlin08]

Just Tagging this thread.

[Rocktober2007]

How big a plus is a great letter of recommendation from a captain or major? Better than a great letter from a civilian supervisor or professor?

[hasmith]

Does the Capt or Major know you well? Can they provide useful information about you? If all things were equal, I would think that the military status would be a slight edge. However, if your civilian supervisor or professor can provide better information and demonstarte a that they know you better, I would think that you would go with the civilian.

[jchoggan]

How big a plus is a great letter of recommendation from a captain or major? Better than a great letter from a civilian supervisor or professor?

For what type of position? Are the potential recommenders JAG officers, or are they in another AFSC?

In general, someone who has personal experience with you in a legal capacity (ie. professor or supervisor in a legal position) trumps someone with experience in a non-legal capacity. However, as the above poster said, if they know you really well in a professional setting, it could be very helpful, and their rank and military affiliation will probably have some benefit, depending on the type of position/firm to which you're applying.

FWIW, I did a mock interview w/ a V10 in DC last year. The partner stated that I should clearly list my military affiliation/rank on my resume, and make sure my recommenders do the same in their LORs.