Military Law Forum

[TonyDigital]

Thanks Eagle. That article was a pretty good read, I'm thinking I will apply to both the Navy and AF and see what happens. I was pretty surprised to see last year the Navy only accepted 8% of applicants. That's rough.

Does anyone know if prior military service is a bump in one's application or is it something that is just glanced over?

The last AF Direct Appointment board selected 15-20 out of nearly 400.

At least in regard to the AF, strong prior service can be a considerable bump. If you have near firewall 5 EPRs, no derog paperwork, etc, you will have an advantage.

Cool, thanks for the reply PB. Six yrs of firewall 5's. Amn of the Year (squadron level), Levitow Award for Amn Leadership School, and other stuff here and there. Been a contractor for the past 6 years with the AF also. I'm hoping it helps, I'd definitely like to have JAG as an option. I plan on applying to the GLP after first semester (I start this Fall). I think I read somewhere AF's GLP and OYCP are less competitive than Direct Appt. Is there truth to this?

[Patrick Bateman]

Thanks Eagle. That article was a pretty good read, I'm thinking I will apply to both the Navy and AF and see what happens. I was pretty surprised to see last year the Navy only accepted 8% of applicants. That's rough.

Does anyone know if prior military service is a bump in one's application or is it something that is just glanced over?

The last AF Direct Appointment board selected 15-20 out of nearly 400.

At least in regard to the AF, strong prior service can be a considerable bump. If you have near firewall 5 EPRs, no derog paperwork, etc, you will have an advantage.

Cool, thanks for the reply PB. Six yrs of firewall 5's. Amn of the Year (squadron level), Levitow Award for Amn Leadership School, and other stuff here and there. Been a contractor for the past 6 years with the AF also. I'm hoping it helps, I'd definitely like to have JAG as an option. I plan on applying to the GLP after first semester (I start this Fall). I think I read somewhere AF's GLP and OYCP are less competitive than Direct Appt. Is there truth to this?

I think you will be in solid shape with all of that. The a fair share of the company grades in the JAG Corps come with no prior experience, either as Es or Os, so I think that will help set you apart. It also gives you the vital credibility in being able to say what you know what service entails and you are ready for it.

I fear I may be the genesis of the notion that GLP/OYCP is less competitive than DAP. This is true in one sense, in that there are less applicants for the non-DAP programs. It may be misleading though because the competition is still considerable given the % of selections that are made. There were maybe a dozen GLP/OYCP selects this year.

[TonyDigital]

I think you will be in solid shape with all of that. The a fair share of the company grades in the JAG Corps come with no prior experience, either as Es or Os, so I think that will help set you apart. It also gives you the vital credibility in being able to say what you know what service entails and you are ready for it.

I fear I may be the genesis of the notion that GLP/OYCP is less competitive than DAP. This is true in one sense, in that there are less applicants for the non-DAP programs. It may be misleading though because the competition is still considerable given the % of selections that are made. There were maybe a dozen GLP/OYCP selects this year.

Only a dozen? The AF JAG site states they select 100-120 candidates per year through all their different programs. I wonder if they're cutting down that number while the number of applications are going up? That would just make it even more difficult for guys like me trying to apply in the coming year. And I wouldn't talk-down your accomplishment if you got selected via GLP or OYCP. If you get selected, for whatever reason, be proud about it.

Did you apply to any of the other branches?

[FeuerFrei]

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[Patrick Bateman]

I think you will be in solid shape with all of that. The a fair share of the company grades in the JAG Corps come with no prior experience, either as Es or Os, so I think that will help set you apart. It also gives you the vital credibility in being able to say what you know what service entails and you are ready for it.

I fear I may be the genesis of the notion that GLP/OYCP is less competitive than DAP. This is true in one sense, in that there are less applicants for the non-DAP programs. It may be misleading though because the competition is still considerable given the % of selections that are made. There were maybe a dozen GLP/OYCP selects this year.

Only a dozen? The AF JAG site states they select 100-120 candidates per year through all their different programs. I wonder if they're cutting down that number while the number of applications are going up? That would just make it even more difficult for guys like me trying to apply in the coming year. And I wouldn't talk-down your accomplishment if you got selected via GLP or OYCP. If you get selected, for whatever reason, be proud about it.

Did you apply to any of the other branches?

I think he means a dozen total through GLP/OYCP. Rest of 100-120 is made through DAP if I read correctly.

That's correct. The bulk of JAGs come in through DAP. Then you have GLP/OYCP. Then you also have active duty officers in other AFSCs that come through FLEP/ELP.

As a 2L, I applied to both Army and AF for the internship. I was selected for both but went with the Air Force. I applied for the August DAP board while I was still interning and was thankfully selected by the first board so I never submitted an active duty application to the Army.

[TonyDigital]

I think he means a dozen total through GLP/OYCP. Rest of 100-120 is made through DAP if I read correctly.

That's correct. The bulk of JAGs come in through DAP. Then you have GLP/OYCP. Then you also have active duty officers in other AFSCs that come through FLEP/ELP.

As a 2L, I applied to both Army and AF for the internship. I was selected for both but went with the Air Force. I applied for the August DAP board while I was still interning and was thankfully selected by the first board so I never submitted an active duty application to the Army.

Yea I wasn't clear...I thought GLP/OYCP was the bulk of the acceptances. I guess I just equated it to the Navy JAG programs. On the Navy JAG site, they state the bulk of their JAGs are from the Student Program and not Direct Appointment.

I knew about the FLEP program while I was active duty but unfortunately it didn't apply to me because, like you said, it's only for officers. Enlisted with degrees get no love in that department. I'll try GLP first and see what happens. Thanks for the replies.

[FeuerFrei]

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[Patrick Bateman]

Does anyone know why they ask for your LSAT score? Does it carry any kind of real weight other than to make sure you're over 150 or whatever the minimum is?

Carries no weight for the Air Force. Merely to verify that you took it and are properly enrolled in law school.

[Eagle]

How does the pay work during the 5 months or so during training? It doesn't make sense that we would get BAH, but how about the base salary and BAS? Also, when does the clock start ticking in terms of our four-year service obligation? Is it after we report to our first post? Thanks.

[Patrick Bateman]

How does the pay work during the 5 months or so during training? It doesn't make sense that we would get BAH, but how about the base salary and BAS? Also, when does the clock start ticking in terms of our four-year service obligation? Is it after we report to our first post? Thanks.

5 months of training?

Again, for AF:
The clock begins the day we leave for COT. That is our first day of active duty service.

No BAH at COT unless you have dependants - if you have dependants then you receieve the standard BAH for the zipcode in which they reside.
I believe you get either a full or partial BAS.
Base salary is at O-2 w/ no years in service.

[Eagle]

Thanks, Patrick.

Army JAG's training lasts about 5 months:
* 12 day military orientation course at Fort Lee, Virginia
* 10 1/2 week Judge Advocate Officer Basic Course (JAOBC) at The Judge Advocate General's Legal Center and School (TJAGLCS)
* 6 week Direct Commissioned Officer (DCO) Course at Fort Benning, Georgia.

[upnorthguy]

I have a friend that just completed the 181st JAOBC last week. I'll ask about single peeps and BAH (that isn't me so I have not been asking about that situation).

You get full BAS.
For those with dependents, you get family separation allowance ($250/month) after 30 days.
There is also a per diem for food (currently $41/day at Ft. Lee and $51/day in Charlottesville).
http://www.defensetravel.dod.mil/perdie ... rates.html
You get reimbursed this entire amount independent of whether you actually spend that much on food.

[Eagle]

Thanks, upnorthguy! I am single so the BAH information would be helpful.

Between the BAS and per diem, I hopefully won't even have to touch the base salary to get by.

[Patrick Bateman]

I'm doing research on AF and Navy JAG and noticed the AF posts they have a force of 1300 JAGs but the Navy only has 750. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Navy a lot bigger than the AF, manpower-wise?

And to the people that applied to multiple branches: how do you rank the different branches as far as selectivity?

Sorry if this has been covered somewhere ITT before but this thread is a monster now so I figured I'd just ask...

USAF has 335,950 active duty personnel.

USN has 329,922.

The Army has far and away the most: 559,783

(March 2010 figures)

[jms1987]

How much (if any) does school prestige matter to JAG recruitment? Also, if one wanted to enter private practice after JAG how much of a boost on ones resume would that be?

[Eagle]

How much (if any) does school prestige matter to JAG recruitment? Also, if one wanted to enter private practice after JAG how much of a boost on ones resume would that be?

This is just my sense of things from doing a ton of networking in Southern California and talking to former JAGs:

It seems NLJ 250-type firms won't be that impressed. These firms tend to be more bureaucratic with their hiring processes and typically only pick up new attorneys from OCI, federal clerkships, the DOJ, or similar-sized firms. Every now and then you hear about an associate who was able to move from a small firm to a big firm, but this is pretty rare. JAG may open up doors with the DOJ or an equivalent federal agency, which may in turn lead to an offer at a big firm down the road. Alternatively, if you stick with JAG long enough, you may pick up a specialty in a certain area that could lead to a big law job or in-house counsel position directly upon leaving JAG. Lastly, if you network with attorneys and stay in touch with them during your service, you might be able to convince them to interview you when you get out of JAG--especially if you have the class rank and law review experience that big firms normally look for.

As for small to mid-size firms (which have less bureaucratic hiring practices), JAG should definitely provide an immediate "boost" to your resume. I have come across a lot of small to mid-size firms in Southern California whose partners are uniformly impressed . These firms seem less interested in GPA/law review. The fact that you served your country and potentially risked your life probably speaks for itself.

To sum it up, JAG seems to open the most doors with federal jobs and small to medium sized law firms. JAG won't foreclose the opportunity to get into big law, but getting an offer through a summer associate program is probably an easier path to big law.

Again, these are just my impressions from talking to attorneys and former JAGs in Southern California

[Eagle]

Former Army TJAG Maj. Gen. Fugh died today after suffering a heart attack: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 04818.html. Fugh served as the TJAG from '91-'93 and was the first Chinese-American to attain general officer status in the Army.

[TonyDigital]

USAF has 335,950 active duty personnel.

USN has 329,922.

The Army has far and away the most: 559,783

(March 2010 figures)

Patrick...you're a great source of information. I thought the AF was the smallest for some reason. Well hopefully the Navy will see the err in their way and hire more JAGs to have the same level of support as the AF, thus increasing my chances when I apply I actually think I'd prefer the AF mainly due to familiarity with...well everything, I've been in or supporting the AF for 12 years now. I plan on applying to both to increase my chances. Thanks again PB!

[Patrick Bateman]

Former Army TJAG Maj. Gen. Fugh died today after suffering a heart attack: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 04818.html. Fugh served as the TJAG from '91-'93 and was the first Chinese-American to attain general officer status in the Army.

As a super minor aside: no need to preface TJAG with "the" as the T stands for "the" already. The Judge Advocate General.

[Eagle]

What's the big deal? I thought some people on this forum would be interested in reading this news. I think it's pretty amazing how he went from living in Communist China to becoming TJAG.

[BigFatPanda]

What's the big deal? I thought some people on this forum would be interested in reading this news. I think it's pretty amazing how he went from living in Communist China to becoming TJAG.

I am one of those "some people"; thanks for posting.

[Patrick Bateman]

What's the big deal? I thought some people on this forum would be interested in reading this news. I think it's pretty amazing how he went from living in Communist China to becoming TJAG.

Just my attempt at humor folks.

[Eagle]

No offense taken.

At least with Army JAG, you supposedly fill out a list with your top 8 post preferences. Then an officer calls us to discuss our post assignment. Does anyone know if submitting my intent to accept a commission late will affect my chances of getting a preferred post? Is it first come first served or do they assign posts all at once?

[3milesup]

I have just scheduled my FSO interview with the CO of the local Army JAG Reserve LSO in my City. Has anyone interviewed with a Reserve JAG Officer? Are there things that I need to be cognizant of compared with my Active Duty FSO interview back in Feb.?

Thanks for any advice!

PS: Eagle: Love the Army JAG Zippo!

[upnorthguy]

I'm working on the ARNG path so it isn't the exactly the Reserves, but last winter I interviewed with the SJA of the unit I am trying to join. He was an 0-5. There were two deputy SJAs there (both O-4s) and an E-7.
I thought it was pretty laid back. We talked about my resume. Work and school experience. Why the Army? How do you feel about deployment? What do you know about the training? (both initial training and down the road). I did some research on the O-5 (he likes to run). Found some race results online. Found his FB profile (although it was locked down unless you were a friend). This helped my cause (and made for some good conversation).

From what I have heard in conversations with USAR JAGs I've talked to (a handful), it sounds like each LSO is a bit different in what they do. Find out how yours does things.