Military Law Forum

[TenaciousD]

Regarding LLMs -- for the Navy, their goal is that 100% of all JAGs get one at some point in their career. I think most people do it during their second or third tours. Not sure which schools are approved, but many people go to one of the DC schools - GW or GULC - and some go to the Army's at UVA. The Navy pays all tuition plus your normal salary. Only certain degrees are allowed - common ones are intl law, enviromental law, and trial ad.

I asked about this and, generally, if you get in, it's an LLM in a JAG field, the Navy covers it. While a lot of people tend to go to the same schools, that's because of experience/proximity/and the smaller number of LLM programs in particular disciplines. But there's no real limitation: if you get into the best LLM program in whatever your field, they'll give you the time, tuition, and salary to complete the degree.

[Cole S. Law]

Phenomenal thread. Thanks to all the contributors.

Some questions that I couldn't find answered so far:

3) How are JAG judges selected?

To get a judge position I would imagine you would need a rank of at least O-4 (Major) or O-5 (Lt. Colonel). This would almost certainly mean more than 4 years.

[FeuerFrei]

.

[clarencethomas09]

Just got my denial letter from the Air Force

[toppercentile]

Regarding LLMs -- for the Navy, their goal is that 100% of all JAGs get one at some point in their career. I think most people do it during their second or third tours. Not sure which schools are approved, but many people go to one of the DC schools - GW or GULC - and some go to the Army's at UVA. The Navy pays all tuition plus your normal salary. Only certain degrees are allowed - common ones are intl law, enviromental law, and trial ad.

I asked about this and, generally, if you get in, it's an LLM in a JAG field, the Navy covers it. While a lot of people tend to go to the same schools, that's because of experience/proximity/and the smaller number of LLM programs in particular disciplines. But there's no real limitation: if you get into the best LLM program in whatever your field, they'll give you the time, tuition, and salary to complete the degree.

To apply for an LLM at a school like GULC or UVA, would you need to retake the LSAT? Also, how would those schools look at an applicant with a JD from a T2 school?

[Groundie]

Just got my denial letter from the Air Force

Same here. Gotta re-interview now. D'oh!

[3milesup]

Anyone know if the Reserves or Nat'l Guard (Army, for example) are "less selective" or competitive than active duty? Also, could one get selected for reserves and then request to go active?

N.B.: I put "less selective" in quotes not to denigrate the Reservists or the Guard -- these guys are tireless champs too! -- mostly because from the pool of candidates represented on this board, it seems most want active duty.

[upnorthguy]

Check out this presentation from the 2009 NG conference:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w ... LU0E8xS5ag

(when the .mil login comes up just hit cancel and the ppt should open)

continued on the next post due to space limitations...

[upnorthguy]

If not, the presentation lists the active duty and reserve (ARNG and USAR) applications/accessions for FY01 through FY08.
For active duty
(FY/ # applications /# accessions)
01/528/127/
02/726/132
03/784/137
04/718/128
05/716/159
06/671/143
07/589/134
08/662/144

Reserve (ARNG & USAR)
01/279/268
02/232/232
03/198/195
04/131/120
05/141/132
06/119/100
07/105/100
08/186/163

[Drew82abndiv]

Hey all...I was Professionally Recommended for Navy JAG in the October board. I would be willing to attempt to answer any questions that people may have with regards to the process of applying and getting commissioned. I have also been in the Army Infantry for 6 years (which I think helped).

I look forward to hearing from people...and congrats to those PRd and alternates.

Drew

[Eagle]

Hey all...I was Professionally Recommended for Navy JAG in the October board. I would be willing to attempt to answer any questions that people may have with regards to the process of applying and getting commissioned. I have also been in the Army Infantry for 6 years (which I think helped).

I look forward to hearing from people...and congrats to those PRd and alternates.

Drew

Thanks, Drew.
1) People I've talked to seem to suggest that you don't get the same level of responsibility in your first tour in the Navy as opposed to the Army. My main focus is trial work and I was told you get better exposure to it in the Army. Is this true? Why are you choosing the Navy?

2) Do you know anything about the process of getting selected as an alternate? I emailed a recruiter and they told me there was no way of finding out the odds if and when I might be selected off the alternate list.

[lukeatomic]

I have some questions about scheduling:

When did you guys first report for whatever's first (I assume OCS/OTS or whatever).

I plan on taking the July bar next year and am wondering what kind of a break to expect.

[brownshoe]

Thanks, Drew.
1) People I've talked to seem to suggest that you don't get the same level of responsibility in your first tour in the Navy as opposed to the Army. My main focus is trial work and I was told you get better exposure to it in the Army. Is this true? Why are you choosing the Navy?

Almost every single new Navy Jag will do trial work during their first tour. If you are in a prosecution office, you will have your own cases immediately. If you are defense, it depends on the office - but you will do some legal aid mixed in with your defense work. Some offices have the new lawyers do only legal aid for up to a year before you begin your trial work.

[3milesup]

Check out this presentation from the 2009 NG conference . . . .

You da man! Thanks for the info upnorthguy!

[Patrick Bateman]

Phenomenal thread. Thanks to all the contributors.

Some questions that I couldn't find answered so far:

1) What are the logistics of pursuing an LLM once a JAG? Is there a choice of schools, do you have designated time for it, etc.

2) Is it good to indicate that you would like to stay past the 4 year commitment and make a career of it? Assuming, obviously, that this is true. Also, if so, how would you get that across without sounding like you're looking to over-commit?

3) How are JAG judges selected?

4) Has anyone had luck working with their school's CSO on applications? I can't imagine they would have anything better to offer than this thread, but I'm curious.

All my answers here relate to Air Force JAG.

1. Senior Captains and junior Majors are competitively selected for LLMs. There are X number of slots for each specialty area (Contracting, International Law, Environmental, etc) each year. Typically our JAGs are headed to George Washington in DC and the Army's JAG School at UVa. I think we also do a Space Law LLM that is out of McGill in our 51st state.

2. I'm not sure how/when you are going to make this indication. Are you talking about the selection interview? Regardless, while I think it is advantageous to not be a obvious "4 and out" guy, at the same time, if you are talking about doing your 20 before even putting on your uniform you will sound like a bit of a putz.

3. Generally from our current/former Senior Trial and Senior Defense Counsels. I have never seen a judge below O-5.

4. I seriously doubt any career services staff know much about the JAG application process. You are much better touching base with somebody in uniform.

[Patrick Bateman]

I have some questions about scheduling:

When did you guys first report for whatever's first (I assume OCS/OTS or whatever).

I plan on taking the July bar next year and am wondering what kind of a break to expect.

You are really going to have to narrow it down by service.

[lukeatomic]

I have some questions about scheduling:

When did you guys first report for whatever's first (I assume OCS/OTS or whatever).

I plan on taking the July bar next year and am wondering what kind of a break to expect.

You are really going to have to narrow it down by service.

I'm mostly interested in Air Force.

[dgsaudio]

Got a question concerning the AF JAG application - i'll be putting my application together this fall for the GLP, and one of my current professors has agreed to write a letter of recommendation for me. She (the professor) wanted some guidance as to what the JAG board is looking for and how she should contour the letter for it to be most effective. Any ideas from those who have applied?

I'm prior service, so I will get letters written about military service from other sources. I was thinking that the professor could highlight academic skills, study habits, etc, but she basically wants me to tell her what I think should go in the letter.

Any suggestions and pertinent comments are appreciated.

[Patrick Bateman]

I have some questions about scheduling:

When did you guys first report for whatever's first (I assume OCS/OTS or whatever).

I plan on taking the July bar next year and am wondering what kind of a break to expect.

You are really going to have to narrow it down by service.

I'm mostly interested in Air Force.

My time line was as follows:

Aug 07 - Selected by the Aug DAP Board
May 08 - Graduate law school
July 08 - Sit for the Bar
1 Oct 08 - Receive passing bar results, notify JAX
1 Nov 08 - Receive base assignment and notified I would attend COT 09-02 (Jan 2009 COT) and 2009 Feb JASOC
Nov - Dec - Filled out a ton of paperwork
Jan 09 - COT
Feb 09 - JASOC
April 09 - Arrive at duty station

Your COT class placement will turn on when you get your bar results. If you get them super early (Iowa) you may attend October COT. If you get them super late (New York, California) you may attend March/April COT.

Some COT classes have you report to your base after COT but before JASOC. Generally this is a 2-3 month period. I transitioned straight through from COT to JASOC.

[Drew82abndiv]

Thanks, Drew.
1) People I've talked to seem to suggest that you don't get the same level of responsibility in your first tour in the Navy as opposed to the Army. My main focus is trial work and I was told you get better exposure to it in the Army. Is this true? Why are you choosing the Navy?

2) Do you know anything about the process of getting selected as an alternate? I emailed a recruiter and they told me there was no way of finding out the odds if and when I might be selected off the alternate list.

1. As said above, you will definitely get exposure to trial work and significant responsibility in the Navy, whoever told you that you get more in the Army is just biased towards the Army, you will get the same in both branches. I am choosing Navy because it is the better JAG Corps (smaller), I am sick of the army (have been in for 6 years and want a change), and the Navy treats their officers better and has better bases (on the water)!

2. As for the alternate list, you have to keep this in mind: The legal market is not so great right now and the selection rate for the Navy is 3% right now, so people who have been selected are likely to accept. However, there is at least one person here in the NE region that was unable to physically qualify which means at least one alternate will be/has been chosen. There really is no way to know the odds so the best you can do is wait! GOOD LUCK!

Drew

[Eagle]

1. As said above, you will definitely get exposure to trial work and significant responsibility in the Navy, whoever told you that you get more in the Army is just biased towards the Army, you will get the same in both branches. I am choosing Navy because it is the better JAG Corps (smaller), I am sick of the army (have been in for 6 years and want a change), and the Navy treats their officers better and has better bases (on the water)!

2. As for the alternate list, you have to keep this in mind: The legal market is not so great right now and the selection rate for the Navy is 3% right now, so people who have been selected are likely to accept. However, there is at least one person here in the NE region that was unable to physically qualify which means at least one alternate will be/has been chosen. There really is no way to know the odds so the best you can do is wait! GOOD LUCK!

Drew

Thanks. I appreciate your point of view. Navy JAG does sound more elite, especially given the smaller size. However, Coast Guard JAG is smaller than Army JAG and I think it's a stretch to say the Coast Guard has a better JAG reputation than Army. I think I'm going to pick Army JAG because: 1) the Army has the the biggest presence in Iraq and Afghanistan and from a personal satisfaction standpoint I would feel better about representing soldiers who are more likely to see action; 2) I have to make up my mind about Army JAG by May 11th and it seems unlikely that I would be selected off of Navy's alternate list before then; and 3) I have a ton of law school debt and the army will help me pay that off quicker.

Good luck to everyone else who is making this decision!

[Rocky Estoppel]

Did anyone apply to the August Navy board when they were entering their 2L year? I was wondering because it is likely that I can get an interview with OCI for the Oct. board but I doubt that they'll be around in time to get an interview for the August board. I want to apply to as many boards as possible and was wondering if anyone interviewed over the summer for the August Navy board and how you went about doing that.

['CuseLaw2011]

I haven't been on here in a while, but I applied to the AF OYCP back in February and got the denial letter in the mail around mid-late March. The letter came through USPS, rather than a PDF attached to an email --> hand-signed, and the last clause read something to the effect of: "However, I recommend that you apply to the DAP after you complete your second year of law school." With that line in mind, I've been working my tail off trying to make my application package as impressive as possible in the hopes that maybe I impressed somebody...?

I'm committed to knocking on that DAP door as many times as it takes until it opens. Just kind of curious for anybody's insight here about that line in the letter...did it really mean anything, or am I just reading tea leaves?

[BrutusBuckeye]

I haven't been on here in a while, but I applied to the AF OYCP back in February and got the denial letter in the mail around mid-late March. The letter came through USPS, rather than a PDF attached to an email --> hand-signed, and the last clause read something to the effect of: "However, I recommend that you apply to the DAP after you complete your second year of law school." With that line in mind, I've been working my tail off trying to make my application package as impressive as possible in the hopes that maybe I impressed somebody...?

I'm committed to knocking on that DAP door as many times as it takes until it opens. Just kind of curious for anybody's insight here about that line in the letter...did it really mean anything, or am I just reading tea leaves?

My OYCP rejection letter said the same thing. I think its a standard form

[Drew82abndiv]

Rocky,

Just so you know, OCI interviews have absolutely NOTHING to do with the process. OCI interviews are completely informal and do not factor in at all. You need to start filling out the application online and you need to look for the JAGs who interview in your area (I did mine at the Groton, CT sub base).

Again, don't wait for OCI, it is pointless unless you are just wanting to get some basic information. I applied and was accepted in the October board of my 2L year.


Drew