Hate job / think I might get fired / not sure what to do next? Forum

[Rerrrrygcghnnj]

Hi. I'm a T3 grad ('19) at a V20 firm in a mid-tier market. I'm not thriving too well and I'm not sure what's going to happen next.

1) I think my firm isn't very happy with me. Pretty early on I got torn apart in an oh-so-nice way by an senior associate who gives me most of my work. Everyone else has been quite happy with me (especially with the bread-and-butter work of my practice) but this associate doesn't like me too much. My office is small, so I think that his opinions get around. So far, I'm still getting work from other associates.

2) I think that he's right. My heart isn't in it. The tedious hours (i.e., the equivalent of diligence/doc review/whatever other practice groups have) in my practice is just not something I do well. I feel like I want to jab my eyes out when I hear "you weren't detail oriented enoug on this."

3) I just don't like it. Even though my office has been slow and I haven't had anything like the brutal hours that I hear about from other associates I don't like the job, the perfectionism that I know is required, and everything else. It seems kind of silly and pointless to me.

4) I'm worried that I'm just not very good at working. I had a couple of careers before law school; I was great at some of it, not so good at other stuff. But because my biglaw experience has been really quite low-key, I'm unsure if: (a) this job is harder than I think (because of the perfectionism) or (b) notwithstanding my legal pedigree, I'm just not that good at it and should go get an $80K job at a small firm.

I'm debating what to do next. I think municipal government would be good for me, but I don't want to take the pay cut. I think I might try another firm. I've talked to a couple of recruiters; they're all optimistic. I didn't make any good professor connections in law school, so most of my references are pretty old. I think I'll probably switch practice areas regardless.

Anyway, opinions?

[dabigchina]

The attention to detail stuff gets easier. It's not so much that you become more detail oriented. It's more you get good at spotting stuff that people look for, so you make less obvious mistakes.

Something else I had to get used to, as I also came from a different career - some people in biglaw are just really fucking unreasonable. In my prior career, generally, people had a good reason for wanting things done in a certain way. In biglaw there's a vocal minority of people who only want things done a certain way, not because it's important, but because that's how they were taught to do it. Chances are good that your senior associate is one of these people, and people understand that their criticism needs to be discounted slightly.

If your office is really that small, it wouldn't hurt to start casually looking to lateral. The market isn't great right now, but it really doesn't hurt to put out feelers. Even if you don't find anything, you have a polished up resume (which everyone should have) and have a better understanding of what the market is like if you do need to find another job.

[leavingfirm]

The problem is that you are a normal person who naturally doesn't like doing incredibly tedious, boring shit every single day for hours and hours on end. Those feelings never go away, but you do adjust a bit better to the work sometimes.

Try not to care what some catty senior associate thinks, his/her brain is already broken and biglaw is all that they have. Senior associates love trashing first year work. But don't think about this person, they don't matter.

Do you have debt? If so stay in just long enough to pay it off and then quit.

[Rerrrrygcghnnj]

The problem is that you are a normal person who naturally doesn't like doing incredibly tedious, boring shit every single day for hours and hours on end. Those feelings never go away, but you do adjust a bit better to the work sometimes.

Try not to care what some catty senior associate thinks, his/her brain is already broken and biglaw is all that they have. Senior associates love trashing first year work. But don't think about this person, they don't matter.

Do you have debt? If so stay in just long enough to pay it off and then quit.

Thank you. I appreciate this and it did make me feel better. I have no debt, due to big saving / small inheritance. I'm hoping to give another firm one more shot, and then if I still hate it (in all likelihood) quit for govt or something.

[Anonymous User]

I sensed that I was going to be fired about 6 months before the axe came down on my head.

If you sense that something is going seriously wrong, don't ignore the signs. You should make try your best to move as soon as possible.

[Rerrrrygcghnnj]

I sensed that I was going to be fired about 6 months before the axe came down on my head.

If you sense that something is going seriously wrong, don't ignore the signs. You should make try your best to move as soon as possible.

Thanks Anon. I'm working at it but obviously not many people are hiring now. I think I'd like to change practice areas anyway.

[Ultramar vistas]

Hi. I'm a T3 grad ('19) at a V20 firm in a mid-tier market. I'm not thriving too well and I'm not sure what's going to happen next.

1) I think my firm isn't very happy with me. Pretty early on I got torn apart in an oh-so-nice way by an senior associate who gives me most of my work. Everyone else has been quite happy with me (especially with the bread-and-butter work of my practice) but this associate doesn't like me too much. My office is small, so I think that his opinions get around. So far, I'm still getting work from other associates.

2) I think that he's right. My heart isn't in it. The tedious hours (i.e., the equivalent of diligence/doc review/whatever other practice groups have) in my practice is just not something I do well. I feel like I want to jab my eyes out when I hear "you weren't detail oriented enoug on this."

3) I just don't like it. Even though my office has been slow and I haven't had anything like the brutal hours that I hear about from other associates I don't like the job, the perfectionism that I know is required, and everything else. It seems kind of silly and pointless to me.

4) I'm worried that I'm just not very good at working. I had a couple of careers before law school; I was great at some of it, not so good at other stuff. But because my biglaw experience has been really quite low-key, I'm unsure if: (a) this job is harder than I think (because of the perfectionism) or (b) notwithstanding my legal pedigree, I'm just not that good at it and should go get an $80K job at a small firm.

I'm debating what to do next. I think municipal government would be good for me, but I don't want to take the pay cut. I think I might try another firm. I've talked to a couple of recruiters; they're all optimistic. I didn't make any good professor connections in law school, so most of my references are pretty old. I think I'll probably switch practice areas regardless.

Anyway, opinions?

What do you mean “torn apart in an oh so nice way?”

Honestly, as someone who gives actual feedback rather than just ignoring juniors, sometimes it’s a sign that I actually think they have the potential to improve. So, depending on what you mean, getting some constructive criticism - even if heavy on the criticism - is not always a bad thing.

[objctnyrhnr]

Hi. I'm a T3 grad ('19) at a V20 firm in a mid-tier market. I'm not thriving too well and I'm not sure what's going to happen next.

1) I think my firm isn't very happy with me. Pretty early on I got torn apart in an oh-so-nice way by an senior associate who gives me most of my work. Everyone else has been quite happy with me (especially with the bread-and-butter work of my practice) but this associate doesn't like me too much. My office is small, so I think that his opinions get around. So far, I'm still getting work from other associates.

2) I think that he's right. My heart isn't in it. The tedious hours (i.e., the equivalent of diligence/doc review/whatever other practice groups have) in my practice is just not something I do well. I feel like I want to jab my eyes out when I hear "you weren't detail oriented enoug on this."

3) I just don't like it. Even though my office has been slow and I haven't had anything like the brutal hours that I hear about from other associates I don't like the job, the perfectionism that I know is required, and everything else. It seems kind of silly and pointless to me.

4) I'm worried that I'm just not very good at working. I had a couple of careers before law school; I was great at some of it, not so good at other stuff. But because my biglaw experience has been really quite low-key, I'm unsure if: (a) this job is harder than I think (because of the perfectionism) or (b) notwithstanding my legal pedigree, I'm just not that good at it and should go get an $80K job at a small firm.

I'm debating what to do next. I think municipal government would be good for me, but I don't want to take the pay cut. I think I might try another firm. I've talked to a couple of recruiters; they're all optimistic. I didn't make any good professor connections in law school, so most of my references are pretty old. I think I'll probably switch practice areas regardless.

Anyway, opinions?

What do you mean “torn apart in an oh so nice way?”

Honestly, as someone who gives actual feedback rather than just ignoring juniors, sometimes it’s a sign that I actually think they have the potential to improve. So, depending on what you mean, getting some constructive criticism - even if heavy on the criticism - is not always a bad thing.

For what it’s worth, a lot of senior associates (like myself) find it easier and more efficient to give intense feedback without worrying about hurting feelings. And as mentioned before, part of the reason I do this is to help junior associate who I believe have potential to improve. The most efficient thing in fact would probably do to redo a bunch of it myself. But I don’t because it’s part of my job to help them get better.

In awareness of the fact that some juniors might be sensitive, I always say in the body of my email that something like:

I think it was a great start (provided that it is) and to please not infer anything from any interpreted tone of my comments. Rather, it’s just more efficient to give direct concise comments and I could see how they might seem aggressive...which is why I’m writing this stuff in the email before they start looking at edits.


Anyway not sure if that’s what happened here, but it’s something to keep in mind.

[Rerrrrygcghnnj]

Hi. I'm a T3 grad ('19) at a V20 firm in a mid-tier market. I'm not thriving too well and I'm not sure what's going to happen next.

1) I think my firm isn't very happy with me. Pretty early on I got torn apart in an oh-so-nice way by an senior associate who gives me most of my work. Everyone else has been quite happy with me (especially with the bread-and-butter work of my practice) but this associate doesn't like me too much. My office is small, so I think that his opinions get around. So far, I'm still getting work from other associates.

2) I think that he's right. My heart isn't in it. The tedious hours (i.e., the equivalent of diligence/doc review/whatever other practice groups have) in my practice is just not something I do well. I feel like I want to jab my eyes out when I hear "you weren't detail oriented enoug on this."

3) I just don't like it. Even though my office has been slow and I haven't had anything like the brutal hours that I hear about from other associates I don't like the job, the perfectionism that I know is required, and everything else. It seems kind of silly and pointless to me.

4) I'm worried that I'm just not very good at working. I had a couple of careers before law school; I was great at some of it, not so good at other stuff. But because my biglaw experience has been really quite low-key, I'm unsure if: (a) this job is harder than I think (because of the perfectionism) or (b) notwithstanding my legal pedigree, I'm just not that good at it and should go get an $80K job at a small firm.

I'm debating what to do next. I think municipal government would be good for me, but I don't want to take the pay cut. I think I might try another firm. I've talked to a couple of recruiters; they're all optimistic. I didn't make any good professor connections in law school, so most of my references are pretty old. I think I'll probably switch practice areas regardless.

Anyway, opinions?

What do you mean “torn apart in an oh so nice way?”

Honestly, as someone who gives actual feedback rather than just ignoring juniors, sometimes it’s a sign that I actually think they have the potential to improve. So, depending on what you mean, getting some constructive criticism - even if heavy on the criticism - is not always a bad thing.

For what it’s worth, a lot of senior associates (like myself) find it easier and more efficient to give intense feedback without worrying about hurting feelings. And as mentioned before, part of the reason I do this is to help junior associate who I believe have potential to improve. The most efficient thing in fact would probably do to redo a bunch of it myself. But I don’t because it’s part of my job to help them get better.

In awareness of the fact that some juniors might be sensitive, I always say in the body of my email that something like:

I think it was a great start (provided that it is) and to please not infer anything from any interpreted tone of my comments. Rather, it’s just more efficient to give direct concise comments and I could see how they might seem aggressive...which is why I’m writing this stuff in the email before they start looking at edits.


Anyway not sure if that’s what happened here, but it’s something to keep in mind.

Thanks. "My" associate is much harsher than that. In fact, I have only rarely received any positive feedback from him, even on tasks that he has nothing negative to say. I'll do something in the nature of a very methodical assignment in my practice area (a la putting together a checklist or a litigation binder) and he will send me a 4 paragraph email outlining everything I got wrong. I only say he does it oh-so-nicely because he's only torn me a new one once (unlike one partner in my practice) and I don't think he's trying to be mean. My significant other thinks that perhaps he's being just mean enough because he wants me to quit.

In retrospect perhaps his "feedback" isn't given to me nicely - it's just given to me not quite as mean as the partner that I believe is above him.

I have suspicions that my practice group may be more toxic than average.

[objctnyrhnr]

Hi. I'm a T3 grad ('19) at a V20 firm in a mid-tier market. I'm not thriving too well and I'm not sure what's going to happen next.

1) I think my firm isn't very happy with me. Pretty early on I got torn apart in an oh-so-nice way by an senior associate who gives me most of my work. Everyone else has been quite happy with me (especially with the bread-and-butter work of my practice) but this associate doesn't like me too much. My office is small, so I think that his opinions get around. So far, I'm still getting work from other associates.

2) I think that he's right. My heart isn't in it. The tedious hours (i.e., the equivalent of diligence/doc review/whatever other practice groups have) in my practice is just not something I do well. I feel like I want to jab my eyes out when I hear "you weren't detail oriented enoug on this."

3) I just don't like it. Even though my office has been slow and I haven't had anything like the brutal hours that I hear about from other associates I don't like the job, the perfectionism that I know is required, and everything else. It seems kind of silly and pointless to me.

4) I'm worried that I'm just not very good at working. I had a couple of careers before law school; I was great at some of it, not so good at other stuff. But because my biglaw experience has been really quite low-key, I'm unsure if: (a) this job is harder than I think (because of the perfectionism) or (b) notwithstanding my legal pedigree, I'm just not that good at it and should go get an $80K job at a small firm.

I'm debating what to do next. I think municipal government would be good for me, but I don't want to take the pay cut. I think I might try another firm. I've talked to a couple of recruiters; they're all optimistic. I didn't make any good professor connections in law school, so most of my references are pretty old. I think I'll probably switch practice areas regardless.

Anyway, opinions?

What do you mean “torn apart in an oh so nice way?”

Honestly, as someone who gives actual feedback rather than just ignoring juniors, sometimes it’s a sign that I actually think they have the potential to improve. So, depending on what you mean, getting some constructive criticism - even if heavy on the criticism - is not always a bad thing.

For what it’s worth, a lot of senior associates (like myself) find it easier and more efficient to give intense feedback without worrying about hurting feelings. And as mentioned before, part of the reason I do this is to help junior associate who I believe have potential to improve. The most efficient thing in fact would probably do to redo a bunch of it myself. But I don’t because it’s part of my job to help them get better.

In awareness of the fact that some juniors might be sensitive, I always say in the body of my email that something like:

I think it was a great start (provided that it is) and to please not infer anything from any interpreted tone of my comments. Rather, it’s just more efficient to give direct concise comments and I could see how they might seem aggressive...which is why I’m writing this stuff in the email before they start looking at edits.


Anyway not sure if that’s what happened here, but it’s something to keep in mind.

Thanks. "My" associate is much harsher than that. In fact, I have only rarely received any positive feedback from him, even on tasks that he has nothing negative to say. I'll do something in the nature of a very methodical assignment in my practice area (a la putting together a checklist or a litigation binder) and he will send me a 4 paragraph email outlining everything I got wrong. I only say he does it oh-so-nicely because he's only torn me a new one once (unlike one partner in my practice) and I don't think he's trying to be mean. My significant other thinks that perhaps he's being just mean enough because he wants me to quit.

In retrospect perhaps his "feedback" isn't given to me nicely - it's just given to me not quite as mean as the partner that I believe is above him.

I have suspicions that my practice group may be more toxic than average.

So that sucks and I feel for you, and it is at least fairly possible that the treatment is unfair/unwarranted.

But more importantly, regardless of whether some degree of the negative feedback is warranted, I echo what an earlier poster said. You need to get your ducks in a row to get out ASAP.

How long until your next eval? Or how soon since your last one and how did it go?

[Rerrrrygcghnnj]

So that sucks and I feel for you, and it is at least fairly possible that the treatment is unfair/unwarranted.

But more importantly, regardless of whether some degree of the negative feedback is warranted, I echo what an earlier poster said. You need to get your ducks in a row to get out ASAP.

How long until your next eval? Or how soon since your last one and how did it go?

Haven't had an eval yet, no idea regarding next one. I'm hoping to find that out soon. Definitely looking to change firms.

[objctnyrhnr]

So that sucks and I feel for you, and it is at least fairly possible that the treatment is unfair/unwarranted.

But more importantly, regardless of whether some degree of the negative feedback is warranted, I echo what an earlier poster said. You need to get your ducks in a row to get out ASAP.

How long until your next eval? Or how soon since your last one and how did it go?

Haven't had an eval yet, no idea regarding next one. I'm hoping to find that out soon. Definitely looking to change firms.

Okay so you have some time, good

[TexasBigLaw]

If you're a 2019 grad you've been at this for all of.. six months? Maybe give it some time before deciding you can't cut it and don't like it. First-year biglaw is a lot like 1L - hard work, long hours, constantly feeling like you're an idiot and don't understand what you're doing. There's very little to like about being at the bottom of the totem pole, and everyone thinks they're bad at it (except, somehow, the people who actually are really bad it). It does get easier, and it gets more enjoyable once you start earning some trust with assigning attorneys and get more challenging assignments.

I also think lateralling as a first-year is going to be tough, especially in this environment. Hiring partners are going to make some assumptions about your ability to cut it if you're leaving that quickly, unless you can come up with an extremely compelling explanation otherwise.

Maybe talk to your firm about changing practice groups if you don't like the work, or start reaching out to other seniors to see if you can get on their cases/deals. That could at least buy you some time until the market improves. You can also try to find a midlevel or senior that seems plugged in to office gossip and ask them to tell you honestly what your reputation is. You say that everyone else has been very happy with you and it's just the one guy who doesn't like you - maybe it really is isolated to him.

[Anonymous User]

I agree that you should get out ASAP. I was in a similar spot (small group; one person dislikes me), and I hesitated to leave until the second half of my second year. Because there aren't many jobs in my practice area as a general matter, it took me a few months to make some progress. Just I was about to receive offers, COVID hit, and now I am about to get onto the chopping board. Being in a small group is very different from being in a large one; if one person dislikes you, unless you have a partner that advocates for you (like, really takes you under his/her wings), it's just a matter of time to get pushed out. The smaller groups also tend to be less leveraged, so a senior associate does have sway on things (at least it is the case in my group). That day comes faster than you think, and usually without a warning.

[Rerrrrygcghnnj]

I agree that you should get out ASAP. I was in a similar spot (small group; one person dislikes me), and I hesitated to leave until the second half of my second year. Because there aren't many jobs in my practice area as a general matter, it took me a few months to make some progress. Just I was about to receive offers, COVID hit, and now I am about to get onto the chopping board. Being in a small group is very different from being in a large one; if one person dislikes you, unless you have a partner that advocates for you (like, really takes you under his/her wings), it's just a matter of time to get pushed out. The smaller groups also tend to be less leveraged, so a senior associate does have sway on things (at least it is the case in my group). That day comes faster than you think, and usually without a warning.

Thanks. Doing my best. Not too many firms are interviewing with COVID and such right now though. I’ve had some interviews but also turned stuff down because it didn’t seem like it would be an improvement.

[gingerbread]

What about a federal government position? It's a big pay cut, but not as painful as municipal government, and if you can make it through a year or two at the firm you should still be able to get around six figures. The application process can take forever though, so you'd need to start looking early. I'd also add that biglaw became much less painful when I started interviewing elsewhere and had a general game plan, ie light at the end of the tunnel.

[yankees12345!]

What about a federal government position? It's a big pay cut, but not as painful as municipal government, and if you can make it through a year or two at the firm you should still be able to get around six figures. The application process can take forever though, so you'd need to start looking early. I'd also add that biglaw became much less painful when I started interviewing elsewhere and had a general game plan, ie light at the end of the tunnel.

Light at the end of the tunnel is the strategy with big law. Once you stop caring how hard you can spin that hamster wheel, it becomes much more manageable.

[Rerrrrygcghnnj]

What about a federal government position? It's a big pay cut, but not as painful as municipal government, and if you can make it through a year or two at the firm you should still be able to get around six figures. The application process can take forever though, so you'd need to start looking early. I'd also add that biglaw became much less painful when I started interviewing elsewhere and had a general game plan, ie light at the end of the tunnel.

Federal options are pretty light in my market, but I've been looking at other government. I'm not geographically mobile, unfortunately.