GRE LSAT Conversion and Chances of T14 Admission

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sturm

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GRE LSAT Conversion and Chances of T14 Admission

Post by sturm » Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:16 pm

Hi, I just took my GRE test and scored 160 on Verbal and 162 on Quant. My GPA is 3.9/4.3 and I'm currently working in the banking industry. Been thinking about applying law schools and am now wondering if the GRE to LSAT conversion chart made by ETS (https://www.ets.org/gre/institutions/ad ... ison_tool/)
is accurate (322 equals to 166). In addition, what will my chances be when applying T14 schools with only these GRE scores? Comments are appreciated.

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cavalier1138

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Re: GRE LSAT Conversion and Chances of T14 Admission

Post by cavalier1138 » Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:28 pm

I wouldn't bother with conversion tools, because a number of schools that consider GRE applicants explicitly state that they only consider them in specific situations (i.e. non-traditional applicants with a fair amount of experience or a graduate degree).

If you're seriously interested in law school, the LSAT is still the right test to take.

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Re: GRE LSAT Conversion and Chances of T14 Admission

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:54 pm

The above is correct, and I'd like to add that even if we take the calculators as gospel, 3.9/166 is on the soft side for T14 admissions, especially since you're disqualifying yourself from several T14 schools.

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Re: GRE LSAT Conversion and Chances of T14 Admission

Post by Dipsychus » Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:28 am

cavalier1138 wrote:I wouldn't bother with conversion tools, because a number of schools that consider GRE applicants explicitly state that they only consider them in specific situations (i.e. non-traditional applicants with a fair amount of experience or a graduate degree).

If you're seriously interested in law school, the LSAT is still the right test to take.
Have law schools said that about the GRE explicitly? All I've read (on most sites) is that "we don't have a preference" and "holistic review" etc. Has any school said the test (or conversion tools by ETS) will be considered only for a small subset of students?

As for ETS's GRE to LSAT conversion tool: (a) ETS has revenue skin in the game; (b) there's a plus-minus margin of error of five (5) points; (b) even a perfect 170 in the Quant section, 170, is "only" 96%ile -- and I'm not sure how experienced file readers are with combining the three GRE scores (different percentile ranges) into one composite score like the LSAT.

That having been said, GRE-only applicants do get into some T14 schools (Harvard, Northwestern, GULC) -- in small numbers (which could simply be a reflection of how few go the GRE-only, we don't have much data yet).

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Re: GRE LSAT Conversion and Chances of T14 Admission

Post by HopefulSplitter0000 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:01 am

Dipsychus wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:I wouldn't bother with conversion tools, because a number of schools that consider GRE applicants explicitly state that they only consider them in specific situations (i.e. non-traditional applicants with a fair amount of experience or a graduate degree).

If you're seriously interested in law school, the LSAT is still the right test to take.
Have law schools said that about the GRE explicitly? All I've read (on most sites) is that "we don't have a preference" and "holistic review" etc. Has any school said the test (or conversion tools by ETS) will be considered only for a small subset of students?
https://www.law.berkeley.edu/article/be ... pplicants/

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nixy

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Re: GRE LSAT Conversion and Chances of T14 Admission

Post by nixy » Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:26 am

Dipsychus wrote:Has any school said the test (or conversion tools by ETS) will be considered only for a small subset of students?
Has any school said anything about the ETS conversion tools? I thought that was one of the issues, no one knows yet how schools treat scores. ETS wanting to make money off of the conversion doesn’t mean that law schools follow it.

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Re: GRE LSAT Conversion and Chances of T14 Admission

Post by Basile » Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:17 pm

I agree that the GRE is really great for non-traditional applicants and for those who specialized in a science or health care field as an undergrad. Law schools these days are looking to broaden their admissions pool by having more STEM applicants apply (and yes, those kinds of degrees are actually at an advantage in law school admissions...those fields set you apart from the typical, run-of-the-mill humanities majors).

Regarding the GRE, law schools generally make this statement: "To be consistent with LSAT reporting, applicants who have taken only the GRE must submit all GRE scores from the last five years. Applicants are not permitted to select GRE results individually."

Ok, so how can law schools really find out if you took the GRE more than once? With the LSAT, results of all tests are automatically reported. Not so with the GRE. If you just send your best GRE score with the ScoreSelect option (thank heavens for that!), is there any way they can actually find out if you took the test more than once???

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Re: GRE LSAT Conversion and Chances of T14 Admission

Post by nixy » Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:26 pm

What makes you think they don't have the ability to check whether someone has taken the test previously? They might not get your score, but that's not the same as knowing whether you took the test.

In any case, they'll find out if you took the GRE more than once because you'll tell them. Because a school finding out you lied about how many times you took the GRE will do wayyyyyy more damage to your application than providing all the scores.

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Re: GRE LSAT Conversion and Chances of T14 Admission

Post by Basile » Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:46 pm

What makes you think they *do* have the ability to know if you took the test more than once? I would think they can't just call up ETS and say, "Hey, did this person take the GRE more than once?" I don't think ETS has the right to tell them that. That seems like a privacy issue to me, protected by the federal education act or something along those lines. I'll do further research into this because I know this would be an issue of privacy somewhere.

Another thing that could be tough for law schools to find out is how many schools you actually attended. Say somebody has an undergraduate degree. Then they went to like 10 other colleges after they got their bachelor's. Maybe you went to a few grad schools and didn't like the program, so you dropped out during or after the first semester. Law schools say you still have to report the transcripts for all colleges attended no matter what the outcome was, but what if you don't put all schools or don't remember which ones you attended if there were too many? I can understand needing to report any colleges you might have received discipline at, but what if you just withdrew because you didn't like it or changed your mind? I wouldn't report that stuff.

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Re: GRE LSAT Conversion and Chances of T14 Admission

Post by Wubbles » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:20 pm

Basile wrote:What makes you think they *do* have the ability to know if you took the test more than once? I would think they can't just call up ETS and say, "Hey, did this person take the GRE more than once?" I don't think ETS has the right to tell them that. That seems like a privacy issue to me, protected by the federal education act or something along those lines. I'll do further research into this because I know this would be an issue of privacy somewhere.

Another thing that could be tough for law schools to find out is how many schools you actually attended. Say somebody has an undergraduate degree. Then they went to like 10 other colleges after they got their bachelor's. Maybe you went to a few grad schools and didn't like the program, so you dropped out during or after the first semester. Law schools say you still have to report the transcripts for all colleges attended no matter what the outcome was, but what if you don't put all schools or don't remember which ones you attended if there were too many? I can understand needing to report any colleges you might have received discipline at, but what if you just withdrew because you didn't like it or changed your mind? I wouldn't report that stuff.
Well, then you would just be dismissed if they found out or you would not be barred to practice law when the state bar finds out.... so I guess that's your pointlessly bad choice?

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Re: GRE LSAT Conversion and Chances of T14 Admission

Post by nixy » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:30 pm

Basile wrote:What makes you think they *do* have the ability to know if you took the test more than once? I would think they can't just call up ETS and say, "Hey, did this person take the GRE more than once?" I don't think ETS has the right to tell them that. That seems like a privacy issue to me, protected by the federal education act or something along those lines. I'll do further research into this because I know this would be an issue of privacy somewhere.

Another thing that could be tough for law schools to find out is how many schools you actually attended. Say somebody has an undergraduate degree. Then they went to like 10 other colleges after they got their bachelor's. Maybe you went to a few grad schools and didn't like the program, so you dropped out during or after the first semester. Law schools say you still have to report the transcripts for all colleges attended no matter what the outcome was, but what if you don't put all schools or don't remember which ones you attended if there were too many? I can understand needing to report any colleges you might have received discipline at, but what if you just withdrew because you didn't like it or changed your mind? I wouldn't report that stuff.
Yeah, what Wubbles said. You can think you wouldn't report that, but your application would be rejected, or you would be dismissed, or you would fail to pass the C&F section of the bar. Really a bad choice.

Also no idea why you think your choice to withdraw from past educational programs isn't something a school would want to know if they're assessing your application to enter another educational program. To be clear, there are plenty of people who go to law school after attending a zillion different schools; it's not at all a kiss of death. But it is something schools want to know about and if that describes you, it is something you would have to address by explaining to schools (basically) why it happened in the past but won't happen this time.

And FWIW, there *is* a central educational record clearinghouse where law schools can check which educational institutions you've attended. Pretty sure you give up any expectation of privacy in how many times you've taken a test/how many and which institutions you've attended when you voluntarily apply to law schools that require you to provide that information for admission.

Again - and I know that 0Ls never get this, but it's true - for law schools/the bar/the legal profession, not disclosing is ALWAYS way way worse than what you have to disclose. Candor is a huge huge part of legal ethics. Basically, if you're going to hide information to make yourself look better, why should anyone trust what you say?

You are not the first person to raise these questions; they come up all the time. You're just simply wrong. That's fine, there's no real reason you should know this stuff yet, but you are.

Edited to add: Pretty sure you were warned against opining on C&F stuff when you're just simply wrong. I mean, I get it if you don't want to disclose things you don't think you have to disclose - it's intrusive and annoying. But you don't get to decide what law schools want to know. The choice is simple - tell them what they ask for, or don't apply to law school. (And yes, some questions can get tricky and there can be legitimate questions about whether something in your background applies. Not telling schools all the GRE scores you've received and/or all the schools you've attended isn't one of those tricky questions.)

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Re: GRE LSAT Conversion and Chances of T14 Admission

Post by Basile » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:59 pm

Well, you need a very strategic plan of attack to counteract this. The premise is simple: Give yourself a colonoscopy before any law school has the opportunity to go up your *ss with a microscope. This is one sentence with a lot of depth to it, and it's a great mindset to have when practicing as an attorney. I know it will serve me well, that's for sure! And I'm glad I have this natural mentality. It's certainly an asset, no question about it.

But back to the topic at hand....how can you find out all the schools you ever attended??? What if someone simply can't remember all the schools they attended and would like an official enrollment verification for every college attended? What organization(s) do you go to to find out said information?

From what I've been reading, colleges tend to go to the National Student Clearinghouse (NSC) for verification. So my question is...as a prospective applicant or student, how can *you* find out all the colleges you ever attended? Can you ask NSC if they have an official enrollment history for you? Is that the only organization you can find out this information from?

Perhaps you can also email the registrar at any random college and ask how they can verify past student enrollments at colleges anywhere in the country.

It's absolutely critical for any student to do this self-colonoscopy, especially if they don't remember all the colleges they ever attended. And *IF* there's no way you can verify your past enrollments, and law schools find out that you attended a college you didn't report, in that case, you can easily chalk it up to an oversight. Easy as that. I mean if there is no way and no process to find out, AS A STUDENT OR APPLICANT, what colleges you previously attended, what else can you say? Oops, sorry...brain fart! Thanks for finding out for me when I tried everything in my power to find out for myself, but there was no service to verify my own enrollments.

EDITED: I read a portion of the comment before mine about law schools having their own clearinghouse. Is it NSC??? If not, what is it? And if law schools can access this and find out your enrollments, then you as the student must have the right to do the same thing. It's your education after all. And yes, the question over what schools you attended *does* become tricky when you can't remember and want to make sure that you're not leaving any schools out.

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Re: GRE LSAT Conversion and Chances of T14 Admission

Post by nixy » Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:30 am

I mean, dude, there's no need to be snarky. You can rail against the machine but this is what the legal profession is like - you might as well get used to it.

Yes, my understanding is that law schools access the National Student Clearinghouse.

And while I find it fairly implausible that you could forget the schools you've attended, guess what? LSAC has your back! On their page on their website titled (in big bold letters) Requesting Transcripts, they state:
It is your responsibility to request an official copy of all required transcripts to be sent to LSAC directly from the registrar’s office of each institution OR from one of the following approved electronic transcript transfer sources:

National Student Clearinghouse
Credentials Solutions
Scrip-Safe
Parchment
So yes, you as the student can in fact request your records from the National Student Clearinghouse.

(Re: tricky questions - tricky as in legally tricky. Which schools you attended isn't generally a legally tricky question. It might be a pain for you to access the info, but that doesn't make it tricky. Legally tricky is more like all the questions that come up about whether a motor vehicle infraction in State X is responsive to how a given law school has worded its demand for any past arrests/convictions/etc.)

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Re: GRE LSAT Conversion and Chances of T14 Admission

Post by Basile » Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:43 am

[Post deleted for containing flat-out dangerous advice to applicants. Pro-tip for all our readers: Don't lie about college attendance or arrest records.]

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Re: GRE LSAT Conversion and Chances of T14 Admission

Post by Wubbles » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:11 am

Dude, you are off your rocker. Please refrain from giving advice on this board for the sake of anyone seeking real advice.

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Re: GRE LSAT Conversion and Chances of T14 Admission

Post by nixy » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:17 am

Basile, you're just not getting it. You have absolutely the wrong attitude for handling C&F. You're right that you only need to answer the question that's asked, but "weaving a nice slightly false narrative" and feeling free to "fib it up" is fucked up and absolutely not the way to go about this.

But you know, you do you, and see how that goes. Good luck. Anyone else reading, don't do what Basile does.

(I've been a lawyer for a number of years now. Also have never been a he.)

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Re: GRE LSAT Conversion and Chances of T14 Admission

Post by Basile » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:32 am

You can preach all you want about how it's not the way to go about it. The world doesn't quite operate in perfect ways. Sometimes you go through back doors instead of front doors, you know? If there's a loophole, you loop it.

[Unnecessary ad hominem removed.]

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nixy

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Re: GRE LSAT Conversion and Chances of T14 Admission

Post by nixy » Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:07 am

Have I given you (or others) any advice that’s wrong?

Do you think I’m the only admitted lawyer commenting in the admissions forum?

Who else do you think is answering admissions questions on this site and what do you think their qualifications are?

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Re: GRE LSAT Conversion and Chances of T14 Admission

Post by rcharter1978 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:15 am

This conversation took a hilarious and surreal turn.

I'm no good at troll spotting, but I feel like basile is a likely troll, right?

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Re: GRE LSAT Conversion and Chances of T14 Admission

Post by cavalier1138 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:26 am

Basile wrote:You can preach all you want about how it's not the way to go about it. The world doesn't quite operate in perfect ways. Sometimes you go through back doors instead of front doors, you know? If there's a loophole, you loop it.
As fascinating as your take on legal ethics is, that's not how it works. Please refrain from encouraging 0Ls to lie on their applications and from needlessly insulting posters who disagree with you.

Additionally, TLS does not allow a single poster to maintain multiple accounts. Please PM me regarding which account you would like to continue posting from: Basile or Libra.

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Re: GRE LSAT Conversion and Chances of T14 Admission

Post by Basile » Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:52 pm

After further sleuthing, I discovered the following information. The National Student Clearinghouse (NSC) does not provide lifetime enrollment history. It's purely a verification service to verify that you attended such-and-such college during such-and-such years. Employers and universities can access this feature. There is no way for students or universities to find out every single college you ever attended through the Clearinghouse, so that organization is pretty much moot.

When I asked a top 10-tiered law school's admissions department about how to find out your enrollment history, they responded with: "We are not familiar with an organization that can assist with lifetime enrollment history. Please enter the information the best you can remember in the Education section on the application." Ok, so one of the top, TOP law schools in the country doesn't know how to find all of the colleges that you ever attended. If they don't know this, then they obviously can't find out on their own all the colleges you ever attended (in case you mistakenly omit a college from your application). They just ask for honesty in your applications (naturally).

Now here's the kicker: the NSLDS (National Student Loan Database Services). This website shows you all the federal aid that you've ever received, and it includes which colleges disbursed those loans to you. I also inquired if universities could have access to this information upon acceptance, and I was told YES. If accepted and if you qualify for federal aid, the colltege must have access to this information because they need to make sure you're not in default. Makes sense. But do they REALLY poke around everywhere and look at all the drop-down menus for every single loan disbursement just to see which colleges you attended? I'd say that's very rare. I wouldn't think that financial aid's purpose is to verify what schools you attended, only how much loans you currently have and whether there's any default.

However, I would say that it's in everybody's best interest to submit transcripts from schools that can be found using NSLDS. If colleges have access to this, you better submit those transcripts anyway. Now, what are the chances that the financial aid office can rat on you to the admissions department? I don't know. My guess, rather my experience, is that financial aid and admissions departments are like two separate worlds and they don't generally have a ton of communication going back and forth between each other. Once you're admitted, the acceptance gets registered with financial aid and off you go. Then you talk about the moolah. So I wouldn't think that colleges would take the time to verify all colleges attended by going through financial aid, but I still wouldn't take that risk.

Now, will ALL the colleges you ever attended show up in NSLDS? NO. Only those schools that you got federal aid from will show up. I have 2 graduate colleges that showed up on there, so I'll have to submit those. No big deal...they're all A's anyway (maybe 1 B+) and I withdrew after 1 semester for each because I didn't like the programs. However, I do remember about 5 or so more colleges or trade schools that I attended in the past, and they don't show up on there at all because I either didn't get federal aid from them or I paid out of pocket. Should I submit those transcripts. Maybe, from an ethical standpoint...do I HAVE to and could I get away with it? Absolutely. There's no documented evidence for those schools anywhere. It would have to take somebody ratting you out to let the college know that you attended that particular school. I would imagine this could happen if you become a very well known public figure, and a college you attended starts talking, it gets back to your law school that you already graduated from, and then...so what??? You got your law degree, you passed the bar exam...They're not going to revoke your law degree if you mistakenly omit one college, and there was no disciplinary action or anything bad that happened at that school.

I rest my case.

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Re: GRE LSAT Conversion and Chances of T14 Admission

Post by nixy » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:03 pm

No one has ever said that an honest mistake is going to get you rejected/disbarred. The problem is with your assertion that you'll "fib it up" and your suggestion here that you might not submit records from schools that you can remember.

(In any case - why *wouldn't* you provide transcripts from all the schools you've attended? Do you have something to hide at any of them? If you do, aren't you trying to get an unfair advantage by hiding that? if you don't, why on earth are you on such a tear about what you do/don't have to submit?)

The ethical requirement is that you answer honestly. Not that you answer only those things that the school will be able to find out anyway.

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Re: GRE LSAT Conversion and Chances of T14 Admission

Post by QContinuum » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:10 pm

Basile wrote:do I HAVE to and could I get away with it? Absolutely. There's no documented evidence for those schools anywhere. It would have to take somebody ratting you out to let the college know that you attended that particular school. I would imagine this could happen if you become a very well known public figure, and a college you attended starts talking, it gets back to your law school that you already graduated from, and then...so what??? You got your law degree, you passed the bar exam...They're not going to revoke your law degree if you mistakenly omit one college, and there was no disciplinary action or anything bad that happened at that school.

I rest my case.
Sounds like a highway to disbarment, frankly.

Basile, you've made 21 posts on TLS so far, and most have been toxic and unhinged. None have been productive. Indeed, many of your posts have argued passionately for unethical and possibly criminal activity (e.g., perjury), by yourself and others. TLS is not going to serve as a platform for the promotion of these destructive viewpoints. This is your third warning from the staff regarding this. If you continue posting in this vein, you will not be warned again, you will simply be banned.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
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