A dumb Chinese boy planning to study for LSAT this summer..any suggestion to get 170+? Forum

[tkylo]

So....
I'm a Chinese international student in UC Davis, double major applied math and philosophy.
The GPA bombed in my first year spring quarter, and this is my second year here, with cumulative GPA 3.5...
Because of financial problem, I am hurrying to graduate in my third year( next year ) with double major. I hope I can stay one more year to higher my GPA.. but life is cruel.
So.. going to prepare LSAT this summer, from mid-June to late-Sep, hopefully, I can reach 170+, but I am not sure. As a math and phi major, I am pretty good and logic games.
Every quarter I took at least 6 courses and I think I get used to the stress, but I'm still so worried about my future. Because if no t14 law school admits me, my life is.. idk. Like I spent 70k a year as an international student in the United States and end up with nothing? In China I got an ed from a university but my score was much higher than that school, just like I could go to the "Harvard" in Shanghai but signed an ed contract with the "Cornell" in Shanghai. That's why I chose to come to America, spending a huge amount of money.
I don't know what to say...just feel upset and stressed with my future.I need a 170+ score and an offer from t14..
Any suggestion about the study or life?

[kingpin101]

I'm not gonna lie, your English is not great based on your post (you made a lot of strange grammatical errors), so your ability to get a 170+ may be difficult. Why do you need to go to a t14 in the first place to feel like your tuition is worth it?

[tkylo]

I'm not gonna lie, your English is not great based on your post (you made a lot of strange grammatical errors), so your ability to get a 170+ may be difficult. Why do you need to go to a t14 in the first place to feel like your tuition is worth it?

You are right. I was engineering major in my first year, and therefore, I almost spent all my time with the data, calculation and labs. I don't like that kind of life and I want to pursue some more abstract things like math and philosophy. As a result, I started to focus on my writing since I changed my major in my second year. At least, for the 5 philosophy classes and two politic classes, I got B+ or higher. I'm still improving that. Anyway, you are totally right. My writing is problematic.
Why do I want to study law? I want to achieve something, not as an engineer, but as a preacher. Why I want a first place law school? The tuition is definitely an important factor for that. Also, it is due to a sense of vanity.

[ss32]

I'm not gonna lie, your English is not great based on your post (you made a lot of strange grammatical errors), so your ability to get a 170+ may be difficult. Why do you need to go to a t14 in the first place to feel like your tuition is worth it?

You are right. I was engineering major in my first year, and therefore, I almost spent all my time with the data, calculation and labs. I don't like that kind of life and I want to pursue some more abstract things like math and philosophy. As a result, I started to focus on my writing since I changed my major in my second year. At least, for the 5 philosophy classes and two politic classes, I got B+ or higher. I'm still improving that. Anyway, you are totally right. My writing is problematic.
Why do I want to study law? I want to achieve something, not as an engineer, but as a preacher. Why I want a first place law school? The tuition is definitely an important factor for that. Also, it is due to a sense of vanity.

I'm confused...you want to be a preacher? Then you should go to divinity school or a bible college or something. If you do actually want to be a lawyer, the tuition for T14 law schools is not cheaper than tuition for other law schools. In fact, if you get into T14 schools, you will probably be able to pay much less tuition to attend a lower-ranked school (due to scholarships).

[tkylo]

I'm not gonna lie, your English is not great based on your post (you made a lot of strange grammatical errors), so your ability to get a 170+ may be difficult. Why do you need to go to a t14 in the first place to feel like your tuition is worth it?

You are right. I was engineering major in my first year, and therefore, I almost spent all my time with the data, calculation and labs. I don't like that kind of life and I want to pursue some more abstract things like math and philosophy. As a result, I started to focus on my writing since I changed my major in my second year. At least, for the 5 philosophy classes and two politic classes, I got B+ or higher. I'm still improving that. Anyway, you are totally right. My writing is problematic.
Why do I want to study law? I want to achieve something, not as an engineer, but as a preacher. Why I want a first place law school? The tuition is definitely an important factor for that. Also, it is due to a sense of vanity.

I'm confused...you want to be a preacher? Then you should go to divinity school or a bible college or something. If you do actually want to be a lawyer, the tuition for T14 law schools is not cheaper than tuition for other law schools. In fact, if you get into T14 schools, you will probably be able to pay much less tuition to attend a lower-ranked school (due to scholarships).

Sorry for causing ambiguity. I mean a moral law preacher. Since the top law schools have much better cost performances, I will only choose t14 or t15.

[ss32]

I'm not gonna lie, your English is not great based on your post (you made a lot of strange grammatical errors), so your ability to get a 170+ may be difficult. Why do you need to go to a t14 in the first place to feel like your tuition is worth it?

You are right. I was engineering major in my first year, and therefore, I almost spent all my time with the data, calculation and labs. I don't like that kind of life and I want to pursue some more abstract things like math and philosophy. As a result, I started to focus on my writing since I changed my major in my second year. At least, for the 5 philosophy classes and two politic classes, I got B+ or higher. I'm still improving that. Anyway, you are totally right. My writing is problematic.
Why do I want to study law? I want to achieve something, not as an engineer, but as a preacher. Why I want a first place law school? The tuition is definitely an important factor for that. Also, it is due to a sense of vanity.

I'm confused...you want to be a preacher? Then you should go to divinity school or a bible college or something. If you do actually want to be a lawyer, the tuition for T14 law schools is not cheaper than tuition for other law schools. In fact, if you get into T14 schools, you will probably be able to pay much less tuition to attend a lower-ranked school (due to scholarships).

Sorry for causing ambiguity. I mean a moral law preacher. Since the top law schools have much better cost performances, I will only choose t14 or t15.

If you're not a troll, you're right that T14 grads generally have a greater chance of earning more, but you're not going to earn much as a "moral law preacher" (which does not exist). If you get a high-paying job after law school, it will likely be in Big Law, which is a far cry from being a "moral law preacher." By the way, could you please send me a link to a LinkedIn profile or website of someone who you consider a "moral law preacher"?

[tkylo]

I'm not gonna lie, your English is not great based on your post (you made a lot of strange grammatical errors), so your ability to get a 170+ may be difficult. Why do you need to go to a t14 in the first place to feel like your tuition is worth it?

You are right. I was engineering major in my first year, and therefore, I almost spent all my time with the data, calculation and labs. I don't like that kind of life and I want to pursue some more abstract things like math and philosophy. As a result, I started to focus on my writing since I changed my major in my second year. At least, for the 5 philosophy classes and two politic classes, I got B+ or higher. I'm still improving that. Anyway, you are totally right. My writing is problematic.
Why do I want to study law? I want to achieve something, not as an engineer, but as a preacher. Why I want a first place law school? The tuition is definitely an important factor for that. Also, it is due to a sense of vanity.

I'm confused...you want to be a preacher? Then you should go to divinity school or a bible college or something. If you do actually want to be a lawyer, the tuition for T14 law schools is not cheaper than tuition for other law schools. In fact, if you get into T14 schools, you will probably be able to pay much less tuition to attend a lower-ranked school (due to scholarships).

Sorry for causing ambiguity. I mean a moral law preacher. Since the top law schools have much better cost performances, I will only choose t14 or t15.

If you're not a troll, you're right that T14 grads generally have a greater chance of earning more, but you're not going to earn much as a "moral law preacher" (which does not exist). If you get a high-paying job after law school, it will likely be in Big Law, which is a far cry from being a "moral law preacher." By the way, could you please send me a link to a LinkedIn profile or website of someone who you consider a "moral law preacher"?

I understand the situation. Going to law school is mainly for high-paying job, at least enough paying to raise my family. What I am planning is after practicing law and doing "immoral" things for decades I will go to high school in China to teach philosophy as an atonement for what I will do. I know I will get tired of life as a lawyer in the future ( if I can be a lawyer ) even with a lot of money ( if I can have that amount of money). So the "moral law preacher" would be the last period of my life.
There are not any pure "moral law preacher" in this world, but professors, writers and teachers are sometimes "preachers", especially those teachers in high schools. Anyway, it's just personal point of view.

[Barack O'Drama]

Dude, is this a flame? (like a joke?)


If not, do you mean you want to be a professor of philosophy?

If that's the case you should pursue a Phd in Philosophy. However there isn't a big demand for those and it is one of those jobs where the ONLY way to earn a living using the degree is as a professor. Its also a real time and money sink if you are only doing it as a way to earn a living.

I guess I just don't fully understand what you want to do and why you need a law degree to do it.

[tkylo]

Dude, is this a flame? (like a joke?)


If not, do you mean you want to be a professor of philosophy?

If that's the case you should pursue a Phd in Philosophy. However there isn't a big demand for those and it is one of those jobs where the ONLY way to earn a living using the degree is as a professor. Its also a real time and money sink if you are only doing it as a way to earn a living.

I guess I just don't fully understand what you want to do and why you need a law degree to do it.

Not saying that I want to be a professor after law school, I am saying I would like to be a professor after decades of practicing law...

[Hand]

Dude, is this a flame? (like a joke?)


If not, do you mean you want to be a professor of philosophy?

If that's the case you should pursue a Phd in Philosophy. However there isn't a big demand for those and it is one of those jobs where the ONLY way to earn a living using the degree is as a professor. Its also a real time and money sink if you are only doing it as a way to earn a living.

I guess I just don't fully understand what you want to do and why you need a law degree to do it.

Not saying that I want to be a professor after law school, I am saying I would like to be a professor after decades of practicing law...

solid plan little buddy, good luck, follow your dreams!

[GreatBraffsby]

Dude, is this a flame? (like a joke?)


If not, do you mean you want to be a professor of philosophy?

If that's the case you should pursue a Phd in Philosophy. However there isn't a big demand for those and it is one of those jobs where the ONLY way to earn a living using the degree is as a professor. Its also a real time and money sink if you are only doing it as a way to earn a living.

I guess I just don't fully understand what you want to do and why you need a law degree to do it.

Not saying that I want to be a professor after law school, I am saying I would like to be a professor after decades of practicing law...

Why not just do what makes you happy now? Sure, you can plan to be an intellectual/philosophical mentor in your old age, but that's really not how life works. Things get in the way and it's hard to entirely switch gears like that, especially when taking in factors like moving between countries and having a JD/legal traububg that does not prepare you to both study moral/natural/philosophic law and also make enough money to retire young.

If you really want to study natural law and get a marketable JD and I can't persuade you otherwise, look into Notre Dame's law school. They take morality, the humanities, and natural law arguments more seriously than most law schools (look up professors John Finnish and Michael Zuckert). I'm not sure if they do a dual JD/PhD in Political Science, but maybe you could make that work. It's a Straussian political science department if that means anything to you (Leo Strauss' "Natural Right and History might be an interesting read for you). Again, that will be an expensive pursuit for a career that doesn't really exist and I don't recommend it at all, but maybe you want to take the risk or know your situation well enough to fight the odds.

To be honest, if you just wanted to make money "immorally" while young (not the right word, but I get what you mean), then you should have stuck with engineering. You'd be more marketable professionally and your lack of English grammatical polish wouldn't have been a huge issue (hard to imagine attorneys being as forgiving with language mistakes as your professors). Right now, you could probably use your math major to get into business school or just find a high paying job (or a career path with a lucrative endgame). Your Chinese language and cultural skills would help you infinitely more in that world.

[Desiigner]

Why are you guys responding to this troll? lol... Atonement, lol I literally cried reading it... Pro flame

[iamapipersson]

Dude, is this a flame? (like a joke?)
If that's the case you should pursue a Phd in Philosophy. However there isn't a big demand for those and it is one of those jobs where the ONLY way to earn a living using the degree is as a professor. Its also a real time and money sink if you are only doing it as a way to earn a living.

Yes, entire thread is flame.

But to add to your point, he wouldn't even qualify to teach philosophy at virtually ANY institution as a 3.5 would absolutely not cut it. Most Phil PhDs have at an absolute minimum 3.8 but more likely 3.95+ undergrad, and have nearly a perfect GRE score (BOTH reading and math). Philosophy is not something any willy nilly just steps into because he occassionally posts r/philo "thinkpieces" about foucault or derrida.

I managed a 170 on the lsat and my every day is spent lusting after a philosophy career, but unfortunately my GPA (~3.6) prevents me.

[somewhatferal]

Dude, is this a flame? (like a joke?)
If that's the case you should pursue a Phd in Philosophy. However there isn't a big demand for those and it is one of those jobs where the ONLY way to earn a living using the degree is as a professor. Its also a real time and money sink if you are only doing it as a way to earn a living.

Most Phil PhDs have at an absolute minimum 3.8 but more likely 3.95+ undergrad, and have nearly a perfect GRE score (BOTH reading and math).

False.

[iamapipersson]

Dude, is this a flame? (like a joke?)
If that's the case you should pursue a Phd in Philosophy. However there isn't a big demand for those and it is one of those jobs where the ONLY way to earn a living using the degree is as a professor. Its also a real time and money sink if you are only doing it as a way to earn a living.

Most Phil PhDs have at an absolute minimum 3.8 but more likely 3.95+ undergrad, and have nearly a perfect GRE score (BOTH reading and math).

False.

ITT tech doesn't offer philo PhDs.

[somewhatferal]

Trust me when I say that very few Philosophy PhD programs care about GRE scores, and very few care about GPA as long as you reach some minimal threshold. This is something that I have direct experience with from many different vantage points.

[Barack O'Drama]

Trust me when I say that very few Philosophy PhD programs care about GRE scores, and very few care about GPA as long as you reach some minimal threshold. This is something that I have direct experience with from many different vantage points.

So the deal with Philosophy PhDs is this:

Like any doctorate, the top programs are hardest to get into. So GRE scores and great GPA are sine quo non.

Similarly, to get into state schools and lowered ranked programs, one does not need a top GRE or GPA. For example, if you want to pursue a PhD at Princeton or MIT, you will need top scores. However, to gain admission to a philosophy program at let's say SUNY Buffalo, you do not.

HTH

[A. Nony Mouse]

PhD programs generally care much more about an identified research agenda and ability to carry it out. They want to see evidence of sustained research experience like theses and publications and the like. GPA matters in that a better one is always better, but admission to a PhD program is very very different than to law school and pure numbers are much less important.

And they really don't care about GRE scores. Ironically lower-ranked institutions probably care more bc they're admitting more marginal students and the GRE is one more data point.

(I recognize to get into top programs you're likely competing with people who do have great numbers, but that's really not the focus for PhD admissions, not in the same way at all as in law.)

But I don't think the OP is going to be well served by getting a PhD either.

[somewhatferal]

Trust me when I say that very few Philosophy PhD programs care about GRE scores, and very few care about GPA as long as you reach some minimal threshold. This is something that I have direct experience with from many different vantage points.

So the deal with Philosophy PhDs is this:

Like any doctorate, the top programs are hardest to get into. So GRE scores and great GPA are sine quo non.

This is false.

PhD programs generally care much more about an identified research agenda and ability to carry it out. They want to see evidence of sustained research experience like theses and publications and the like.

This is true of many science programs, yeah. But the point about theses and publications isn't true of philosophy programs.

In general, philosophy phd programs care about (a) pedigree, (b) writing sample, and (c) fit. Pedigree consists of both your undergraduate institution and your recommendation letters.

Again, I'm going to emphasize that I have direct experience with this from many different vantage points.

And they really don't care about GRE scores. Ironically lower-ranked institutions probably care more bc they're admitting more marginal students and the GRE is one more data point.

This is true.

[Mack.Hambleton]

I understand the situation. Going to law school is mainly for high-paying job, at least enough paying to raise my family. What I am planning is after practicing law and doing "immoral" things for decades I will go to high school in China to teach philosophy as an atonement for what I will do. I know I will get tired of life as a lawyer in the future ( if I can be a lawyer ) even with a lot of money ( if I can have that amount of money). So the "moral law preacher" would be the last period of my life.
There are not any pure "moral law preacher" in this world, but professors, writers and teachers are sometimes "preachers", especially those teachers in high schools. Anyway, it's just personal point of view.

love it

[dabigchina]

Real advice: if finances are a problem for you, law school is probably not a good idea.

It sounds like you want to do something akin to rhetoric. School in China would most likely be much cheaper and easier to get into for you.

If you really want to do law school, keep the GPA up. Also, see if you can take a pass/fail writing class. From one Chinese person to another, your grammar is pretty bad.

Nobody can tell you how well you will do on the lsat. I suspect the reading conprehension section will be tough for you but logic games will probably be easy. What helped me was doing practice tests and reading denser news articles like the stuff in The Economist in my spare time.

[Barack O'Drama]

Trust me when I say that very few Philosophy PhD programs care about GRE scores, and very few care about GPA as long as you reach some minimal threshold. This is something that I have direct experience with from many different vantage points.

So the deal with Philosophy PhDs is this:

Like any doctorate, the top programs are hardest to get into. So GRE scores and great GPA are sine quo non.

This is false.

PhD programs generally care much more about an identified research agenda and ability to carry it out. They want to see evidence of sustained research experience like theses and publications and the like.

This is true of many science programs, yeah. But the point about theses and publications isn't true of philosophy programs.

In general, philosophy phd programs care about (a) pedigree, (b) writing sample, and (c) fit. Pedigree consists of both your undergraduate institution and your recommendation letters.

Again, I'm going to emphasize that I have direct experience with this from many different vantage points.

And they really don't care about GRE scores. Ironically lower-ranked institutions probably care more bc they're admitting more marginal students and the GRE is one more data point.

This is true.

You seem to actually know what you're talking about, whereas I had a couple of anecdotal stories. OP listen to him.

And either way, Idk if a philosophy PhD may be the best move either. I think dabigchina makes some good points.

[jdthejd]

But to add to your point, he wouldn't even qualify to teach philosophy at virtually ANY institution as a 3.5 would absolutely not cut it. Most Phil PhDs have at an absolute minimum 3.8 but more likely 3.95+ undergrad, and have nearly a perfect GRE score (BOTH reading and math). Philosophy is not something any willy nilly just steps into because he occassionally posts r/philo "thinkpieces" about foucault or derrida.

I managed a 170 on the lsat and my every day is spent lusting after a philosophy career, but unfortunately my GPA (~3.6) prevents me.

What phd programs accept "willy nillies?" I think I'd qualify...

[Liming]

Hi,tkylo

I'm Chinese and currently a sophomore like you, studying sociology at the university which you called it "Harvard in Shanghai". (If I am right, you meant FDU) It's the final month of this semester and I have been bewildered just like you do.
I am always curious and willing to work hard, however, I have no interest in my current major and what is worse, I have no clue about my real passion. My GPA is lower than yours and my major is such a "cold" one. Just like you said, I am quite "upset and stressed with my future".
It was the fear of uncertainty that led me to this forum (I suppose you are here for the same reason)and I actually have gained just little knowledge about LSAT so far. So I can't help you on this topic, but I did just create this account to write to you, for I see myself in you and I think my words may be of some help.

Firstly I want to say, life is something hard to quantify. You can't measure your life by NUMBERS too much. I know you are a math major, maybe the inertial thinking makes you look at the real life this way. But I think there are things way more valuable than the numbers you mentioned. 70k is indeed very expensive than those Chinese universities ,and an astronomical price for most Chinese family to even have a think. But you have been lucky to be there and enrolled at an excellent university. Why you are afraid to end up with nothing? The knowledge and ability you gain there, the people you meet there, the memories you collect there…I would not say these are "nothing". These are some of the most wonderful things of life. Please savor your life there!

The same is true for college ranking. I am not sure if you meant that you had problem with gaokao 志愿 which caused your missing of the best school here in Shanghai. I agree ranking is largely related to the qualification of the schools, but it doesn't matter that much, especially when you put this into a life scale. Reading your comment "if no t14 law school admits me, my life is..", I am actually a little bit surprised. If a student in my hometown, which is remote and very poor, say this to me, I would understand very well because high education is the only way for them to climb up. But you are learning in the US, which means you are exposed to the world's best resources and opportunities! Uncountable potentials and possibilities are waiting ahead! Oh how I envy you… I assure you that if no t14 law school admits you, you have top 20,top 30 in the law school list. Besides, you have more than 1000 different ways to live your life.

I am not sure what kind of "financial problem" you are in, but I understand that could be the major concern. My point is, knowledge is priceless. Make full use of your semesters there and enjoy, worries never help. If you are determined to take LSAT, just get started and stop worrying about your future so badly. Life is cruel, but it is also so colorful.

[Deardevil]

Hi,tkylo

I'm Chinese and currently a sophomore like you, studying sociology at the university which you called it "Harvard in Shanghai". (If I am right, you meant FDU) It's the final month of this semester and I have been bewildered just like you do.
I am always curious and willing to work hard, however, I have no interest in my current major and what is worse, I have no clue about my real passion. My GPA is lower than yours and my major is such a "cold" one. Just like you said, I am quite "upset and stressed with my future".
It was the fear of uncertainty that led me to this forum (I suppose you are here for the same reason)and I actually have gained just little knowledge about LSAT so far. So I can't help you on this topic, but I did just create this account to write to you, for I see myself in you and I think my words may be of some help.

Firstly I want to say, life is something hard to quantify. You can't measure your life by NUMBERS too much. I know you are a math major, maybe the inertial thinking makes you look at the real life this way. But I think there are things way more valuable than the numbers you mentioned. 70k is indeed very expensive than those Chinese universities ,and an astronomical price for most Chinese family to even have a think. But you have been lucky to be there and enrolled at an excellent university. Why you are afraid to end up with nothing? The knowledge and ability you gain there, the people you meet there, the memories you collect there…I would not say these are "nothing". These are some of the most wonderful things of life. Please savor your life there!

The same is true for college ranking. I am not sure if you meant that you had problem with gaokao 志愿 which caused your missing of the best school here in Shanghai. I agree ranking is largely related to the qualification of the schools, but it doesn't matter that much, especially when you put this into a life scale. Reading your comment "if no t14 law school admits me, my life is..", I am actually a little bit surprised. If a student in my hometown, which is remote and very poor, say this to me, I would understand very well because high education is the only way for them to climb up. But you are learning in the US, which means you are exposed to the world's best resources and opportunities! Uncountable potentials and possibilities are waiting ahead! Oh how I envy you… I assure you that if no t14 law school admits you, you have top 20,top 30 in the law school list. Besides, you have more than 1000 different ways to live your life.

I am not sure what kind of "financial problem" you are in, but I understand that could be the major concern. My point is, knowledge is priceless. Make full use of your semesters there and enjoy, worries never help. If you are determined to take LSAT, just get started and stop worrying about your future so badly. Life is cruel, but it is also so colorful.

Very inspirational post. Kudos for signing up just to help out this young chap as well!
I have to say that parts of what you mention also resonates with me, like the bit about your major.
Coincidentally, I'm Chinese myself, but I doubt that our lack of passion stems from biological roots (at least, I hope not).

Anyway, a speaker at my graduation commencement had something like this to say:
"You're not born knowing what to do. That's up to you. It took me 20 years to find what I really wanted in life.
The journey to your desired career may not be so clear-cut, but it's there waiting for you, however long it may take."

So while you may still be unsure of what it is that you're searching for, that's okay.
You're still young. You have a long road filled with obstacles, but life is about conquering those demons.
Life can also be a bitch, but make it your bitch, right? Also, have you considered law school?