Should I cancel out of this Monday's June 2015 LSAT? Forum

PodPeople · Post by **PodPeople** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:07 pm

What's the advantage (if any) of taking the June test?

Can you still apply for early admissions with an October test score?

I have a 3.95 GPA from a good private school, but my LSAT practice test range is 155-163. This is up from the 143-144 practice test range I started with six months ago. My goal is 170. I want to get into a T10 school. Great "softs" (if I understand what that means from these boards).

I'm signed up to take the LSAT this Monday, June 8th, but I fear wasting an attempt when I am almost certain my score will be around 160.

New to the TLS boards. Thx.

PoopNpants · Post by **PoopNpants** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:35 pm

Everyone's going to give you the same advice. If you think you can do better in October, take it in October. Don't waste a take, as people who are re-taking (me) and re-re-taking will tell you. Applying with an October score is fine for this cycle too. With your GPA and a score above 170 you should have good options

PodPeople · Post by **PodPeople** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:39 pm

What do you mean by "fine"? Do June test takers have any slight advantage at all? Telllll me!

admitmenowplzkthxbai · Post by **admitmenowplzkthxbai** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:47 pm

And by "don't waste a take," do you mean it's ok to cancel out? I'm in the same predicament with almost the exact same GPA (scoring 161-166 but know/can/want to score 170+.) My understanding is that a cancel still counts toward the number of takes you have?

kevgogators · Post by **kevgogators** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:09 pm

Showing up on June 8th and canceling the score afterwards counts as 1 out of your 3 takes. Don't go if you don't feel ready, it's literally pointless. You won't magically score a 180.

Also, no genuine advantage in taking June > October. General rule of thumb is to apply during Thanksgiving time/Early Dec, which is possible with a Oct. score.

admitmenowplzkthxbai · Post by **admitmenowplzkthxbai** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:16 pm

Helpful, thanks. Sorry to hijack your thread, PodPeople!

Generally · Post by **Generally** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:19 pm

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180kickflip · Post by **180kickflip** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:29 pm

The answer to this will be different for everyone depending on individual circumstances (parents willing to pay this year, but won't help next year), but all things being equal, I wouldnt suggest anyone sit for the test until they are consistently PTing ABOVE their target score.

I also wouldn't say that the rule of thumb is to apply during November/early December. I'd say the general consensus is to apply as early as possible without rushing/sacrificing the quality of your application materials.

Point blank...if your goal is 170+ and there aren't any exceptional circumstances involved, you have absolutely no business taking the June test. This is especially true for someone with a high GPA because multiple takes may actually be a factor at HYS, and it's not worth shooting yourself in the foot when proper prep can give you a legit shot.

PodPeople · Post by **PodPeople** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:32 pm

No worries, hijack away. Makes the thread more interesting.

You can cancel up until 11:59 PM the day before you take the LSAT, and it does not count as one of your three attempts. But like the other poster said, if you don't cancel your score by that time, and you show up and try to take the test and then cancel your score, it counts as one of your three attempts.

PodPeople · Post by **PodPeople** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:34 pm

Also, I should have noted that I definitely am not sure that I can achieve a 170. It would be a stretch for me. You are right in that some people just can't ever get that high. But when it comes to yourself, you always want to hold out hope....

PodPeople · Post by **PodPeople** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:42 pm

That's part of my dilemma: I'm not sure I can ever get out of the 160s. And taking it in October has drawbacks because I am a senior and will be doing classes + extracurriculars + thesis work in the fall...

But waiting until October means I can study more. I've been good on studying so far. Consistent practice tests and workbook stuff for several months.

PoopNpants · Post by **PoopNpants** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:46 pm

PodPeople wrote:That's part of my dilemma: I'm not sure I can ever get out of the 160s. And taking it in October has drawbacks because I am a senior and will be doing classes + extracurriculars + thesis work in the fall...

But waiting until October means I can study more. I've been good on studying so far. Consistent practice tests and workbook stuff for several months.

It's real simple. If you think you can do better in October than in June (which is what it sounds like) than just take it Oct. you won't be dis-advantaged. If you think you can do well in June, by all means take it next Monday. Getting a 170 would mean hitting about a 97-98% which is difficult, but your goal should be 180 honestly aim to do the best you can do

Generally · Post by **Generally** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:50 pm

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PodPeople · Post by **PodPeople** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:34 pm

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

I've studied 2-hours a day 4 days a week. Taken 6 practice tests. The 2-hour times I use LSAC's workbooks. I've been in the 160s for 3 practice tests.

I've vastly improved in the logic games section, even one practice test with 100% correct. But it's hit and miss. The next practice test I only got 60% of the logic games right.

A few questions I am shocked to see I got wrong. Most make sense after I study the answer. My problem is that in rushing to get under the time limit, I "give up" on a question and just select an answer and move on.

I've gotten much better at narrowing down to 2 choices. If I don't guess the right answer, I mark a second answer that I think it might be. My "second answer" guess is almost always right if my first guess isn't.

180kickflip · Post by **180kickflip** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:55 pm

maaaan...You've got a long way to go before you've reached your peak. Taking 6 PTs is nothing. I think you need 15 bare minimum with 20+ preferred to get really comfortable with the test and the different question types. Don't even think about taking the test if you EVER get only 60% on LG and your target is a 170. You need to be getting 2 or fewer wrong on LG at most, and with the improvements you've already made the last 6 months, you have every reason to believe you'll get there. It's worth the effort.

A 3.95 with a 163 (assuming non-URM) will probably give OP options that are very difficult to defend if debt-financed, and that's the top end of their PTs. Most people underperform their PTs (I did multiple times), and anything under OPs current top range is just a total waste of a take. The fact that OP is still in undergrad (right?) makes it an even easier decision. Wait until you are 100% ready to kill the test. If that ends up being October, December, or even next June, it's better to wait than take the test when you aren't absolutely ready.

Think about it like this..the difference between a 160 and a 168 may be 20k/yr in scholarship funds. If it takes you a year to make that improvement, and that's the change in offers you get, you essentially earned 60k during school just for studying. That a pretty sweet deal.

Generally · Post by **Generally** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:57 pm

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PoopNpants · Post by **PoopNpants** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:39 pm

Make sure you blind review after you take a PT. Just taking a PT and grading afterwards is really doing yourself a disservice. You need to review thoroughly after taking a test and immerse yourself into your thought process on ANY question you aren't 100% on. IMO this is how you really improve

PodPeople · Post by **PodPeople** » Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:45 pm

This is some very good advice. Thank you so much for offering it up! What you are saying really makes sense. See, I knew there was a reason to post this navel-gazing question on here : )

Ya'll are good.

capnobvious123 · Post by **capnobvious123** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:18 am

After re-reading this thread a few times, it seems you guys are all on the same "it's a no-brainer, if you aren't consistently scoring above your target, don't take" school of thought, so I guess rather than posting I should really just take that advice and postpone as well...

BUT

If you don't mind (feel free to just post the same exact thing I guess, I'd deserve it), I thought I'd put my background out there and see what you all thought.

I want to get into a T14 school, preferably with $$ (Penn is top choice, but had some people tell me with a 173+ I'd have a shot at HYS with my softs, which has me wringing my hands). I have a 3.85 and very strong softs, but I've been PTing in the 160s, max at 166 but still occasionally dropping all the way to 161 (took a test yesterday, screw you June 2012). Obviously my goal should be 169+ min, preferably 170s.

That being said, I've only been studying for about 8 weeks, the length of the Blueprint course, and I've only taken 9 practice tests so far, with a 10th coming on Saturday. I do think I can reasonably expect to improve for that reason, and while I've studied fairly hard for the last 8 weeks, I could have done more. I've had time taken away and been distracted by a number of external factors over the course of study.

Downside is that I'll be starting work as a paralegal on the 9th, and that'll obviously cut into study time until October.

I've reached out to my prep test teacher (he doesn't have a bias towards waiting, he knows I wouldn't be signing up for the course again (although it was great) and even if I did it wouldn't benefit him in any way that I know), my academic advisor, and my pre-law advisor, and the consensus seems to be to wait. Seems like you guys are all saying to wait too.

Since the replies to this are just going to be "Tl;DR, wait and take in October" do you guys have advice on the best way to spend from now until October studying? Just PTs and zoning in on weaker areas?

Thanks for tolerating.

Broncos15 · Post by **Broncos15** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:00 pm

While the LSAT is hard and everyone has their limits......I'm not so sure a 3.9+ can't cross a 170 given proper study and effort.

To think of it differently a 3.9 has only gotten ~ 4 grades lower than an A in their UG career ....a low to mid 160's is too low be the upper limit, probably upper 160's if anything

Blue0613 · Post by **Blue0613** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:15 pm

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PoopNpants · Post by **PoopNpants** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:30 pm

Personally I think Reading Comprehension is the one section that is very very hard to improve on, but LR isn't difficult to improve on with drilling, and Logic games are all about repetition repetition repetition. Even if OP can't break 170, they at least should be studying more than 8 hours a week, I'd say 30-40 hours a week is more like it for significant improvement. The LSAT is a skills test not a knowledge test, it doesn't test how "smart" someone is. Tons of people can't break 170, but I think 165-167 range is definitely do-able.

capnobvious123 · Post by **capnobvious123** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:35 pm

Broncos15 wrote:While the LSAT is hard and everyone has their limits......I'm not so sure a 3.9+ can't cross a 170 given proper study and effort.

To think of it differently a 3.9 has only gotten ~ 4 grades lower than an A in their UG career ....a low to mid 160's is too low be the upper limit, probably upper 160's if anything

Although I don't want to be, I think I'm with Blue0613 on this.

There's not necessarily any correlation to be found between your ability to get good grades and a high GPA, and your ability to perform on a strictly timed logic based test. They're just entirely different skill sets. I don't think having one skill set necessarily impacts your ability in the other set.

You could theoretically not have the focus/drive/interest to get the grades and end up with a lackluster GPA, but logic could just be your jam and you pull a crazy splitter 3.0 170+. Or, just as easily, you could be a crazy reverse splitter and have all the right skills and focus at your disposal to poop out awesome papers in undergrad and get awesome grades and end up with a 4.0, and just crumble under the timed pressure of the LSAT and get continually stuck in the low 160s.

Given I'm looking to be a reverse splitter if I'm not lucky and can't improve more beyond my 166, I hate not being able to agree with you, and I'd love to believe that my 3.85 means I have the inherent capacity to pull some crazy 170+ number, but there just isn't enough of a reason to make that jump in logic.

TL;DR, I don't think we can conclude that a high GPA guarantees ability to score well on the LSAT. (But if anyone is considering reading my earlier post and giving me advice, I do think I can bring my LSAT up hlpplzdoIpostponeorno)

Generally · Post by **Generally** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:42 pm

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Generally · Post by **Generally** » Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:49 pm

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