Noticed some big similarities between MBT and NA questions Forum

[flash21]

Hey guys, so my worst time of question type of LR is MBT and NA, so I've been drilling them lately - and I've noticed something interesting. I found that the qualities that make an answer choice attractive + wrong, or the nit picky-ness you have to apply to MBT wrong answer choices is very much a similar process that you have to run through while getting rid of NA wrong answer choices.

To help illustrate what I'm talking about, the question from PT 17, S2, Q21 made me realize this for some reason. "Nuclear reactors are sometimes built in..."

I felt that this easily could have been a MBT question, and in fact, if it was, the correct answer choice would still be the correct answer choice. A, B, D, and E all have the similar characteristics that a wrong MBT answer choice would have - trying to draw too much from the little information (therefore making it impossible to be the assumption that the argument hinges upon). A great example of this is (A) - being the least dangerous is not what is argued in the stimulus so it isn't something we can definitively infer, and therefore would be wrong on a MBT answer choice. But for the same reasons I feel, this is why it is wrong for this NA question. How could this be the necessary assumption when it isn't even something that is truly being argued?

Another one is (D). I felt this was testing the ability to INFER from the stem that it states in the stimulus that AT MOST there is 1 EQ in 100,000 years - and that there could very well be 0. I see this type of wrong answer all the time in MBT, but for the same reason it is wrong in MBT, it is wrong in this NA question! If it isnt something that must be true based on the argument, then why would it be a necessary assumption? (D) and (E) are so similar, I feel they are both testing the ability to infer from the stimulus what must be true, and therefore allowing you to figure out what must be or not be the necessary assumption the argument.

(B) also - the primary determinant? It never says this, we are talking about one aspect of determining safety - for all we know this is the lowest rank determinant of safety. But since this isn't MBT based on the stimulus, this also cannot be the assumption made that if wasn't true, would make the argument fall apart.. because well, it isn't even necessarily true.

Not sure if that rant even made any sense, but does anyone else notice the huge similarities in these question types? The ability to say what MBT based on the stimulus and know when too little or too much is being drawn is the same process used to determine right from wrong in both of these question types, but I guess it never seemed so apparent until now.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[Jon McCarty]

You are definitely on to something here, but it needs to be clarified just a bit. The correct answer on a MBT (must be true) and a NA (necessary assumption) could never be the same thing. MBT must be stated or infered whereas NA is an assumption (unstated premise). So an assumption doesn't have to be true and something that has to be true is not an assumption.

What you are keying into here is the similarity in how you can eliminate incorrect answer choices on these two types of questions. On both types, strong language in an answer choice should be a red flag (unless the stim is conditional reasoning or contains other very strong language). The reason for this on MBT is that it is much harder to FULLY support very strong language and similarly on NA you usually don't NEED something really strong. So on both types of questions, softer answer choices are more likely to be correct. This why you could see that most of the incorrect answer choices would be able to be eliminated on both types of questions.

Hope this helps!

[flash21]

You are definitely on to something here, but it needs to be clarified just a bit. The correct answer on a MBT (must be true) and a NA (necessary assumption) could never be the same thing. MBT must be stated or infered whereas NA is an assumption (unstated premise). So an assumption doesn't have to be true and something that has to be true is not an assumption.

What you are keying into here is the similarity in how you can eliminate incorrect answer choices on these two types of questions. On both types, strong language in an answer choice should be a red flag (unless the stim is conditional reasoning or contains other very strong language). The reason for this on MBT is that it is much harder to FULLY support very strong language and similarly on NA you usually don't NEED something really strong. So on both types of questions, softer answer choices are more likely to be correct. This why you could see that most of the incorrect answer choices would be able to be eliminated on both types of questions.

Hope this helps!

Thanks - yeah this is what I meant! The wrong answers lend themselves to a super similar process that you use to eliminate them - since I feel the wrong answers are made so attractive in the same fashion.

I didn't mean that they could somehow be an answer for one another - I did feel that for this particular question, if you were to switch out the stems, it'd be the right response for both questions types.

[Jon McCarty]

Answer choice C would not actually be correct on a MBT question because we cannot infer with certainty from the stim that it is true. We know that geologic quiet regions don't contain big fault lines but that doesn't necessarily mean that every potential nuclear site is near one of the smaller fault lines in the region. Imagine if the region was huge, like the entire Midwest. There could potentially be sites within this quiet region that aren't near any fault lines. The assumption is that there are no such sites, but that doesn't have to be true according to the stim.

This does bring up an interesting point though. Sometimes when people are struggling with RA questions it is because their brains are automatically making sense of what they're reading. We are conditioned through everyday life to make sense of statements that require assumptions. This means that if you are on a RA question and read an answer choice and have the reaction "they already established that" or "this must be true" then you should carefully consider if they actually did establish it. Most times it was not actually stated nor inferred, but rather your mind filled in the gap for you. If the answer choice truly must be true then it can be definitively eliminated as an answer choice, but if it is just your brain filling in the gaps then it's probably the correct answer. I believe that this is what happened for you on this question which is why you viewed it as being correct on a MBT. Be aware of this trick your mind can play on you going forward and it can help you get some more of those RA questions correct!

[03152016]

You are definitely on to something here, but it needs to be clarified just a bit. The correct answer on a MBT (must be true) and a NA (necessary assumption) could never be the same thing. MBT must be stated or infered whereas NA is an assumption (unstated premise). So an assumption doesn't have to be true and something that has to be true is not an assumption.

necessary assumptions must be true
i think of necessary assumptions as a variation on must be true, smatter of fact
think of it this way folks

a necessary assumption is something that is necessary to the argument

"i am buzzed
how can i prove that you ask
well look at this table full of empty bottles
i rest my case"

it is necessary to assume that the empty bottles contained booze
that would be a necessary assumption
if that assumption were false, what would happen to my argument
it would be unsupported

(sidenote for all lsat nerds: i think of the supporter necessary assumption as a plate on a pole
it's something needed by the argument to keep it aloft
knock it down and the argument comes crashing down, shattering into a million pieces
i think of the sufficient assumption, which is often confused as a supported necessary, as a bridge
it provides a path to the conclusion, but not the only path
i.e. the manhattan bridge is sufficient, but not necessary to get from brooklyn to manhattan
because you also have the williamsburg and brooklyn bridges)

if the argument is going to follow, which it must in a necessary assumption question,
that necessary assumption must be true

[03152016]

i get why you were saying that though
mbt we're generally pulling info down
assumptions aren't explicit
and sa certainly aren't always true
but a na is something that must be true for an argument to follow, period

[flash21]

Answer choice C would not actually be correct on a MBT question because we cannot infer with certainty from the stim that it is true. We know that geologic quiet regions don't contain big fault lines but that doesn't necessarily mean that every potential nuclear site is near one of the smaller fault lines in the region. Imagine if the region was huge, like the entire Midwest. There could potentially be sites within this quiet region that aren't near any fault lines. The assumption is that there are no such sites, but that doesn't have to be true according to the stim.

This does bring up an interesting point though. Sometimes when people are struggling with RA questions it is because their brains are automatically making sense of what they're reading. We are conditioned through everyday life to make sense of statements that require assumptions. This means that if you are on a RA question and read an answer choice and have the reaction "they already established that" or "this must be true" then you should carefully consider if they actually did establish it. Most times it was not actually stated nor inferred, but rather your mind filled in the gap for you. If the answer choice truly must be true then it can be definitively eliminated as an answer choice, but if it is just your brain filling in the gaps then it's probably the correct answer. I believe that this is what happened for you on this question which is why you viewed it as being correct on a MBT. Be aware of this trick your mind can play on you going forward and it can help you get some more of those RA questions correct!

damn you're right.

I guess my point everyone should pay attention to was the part about differentiating between answer choices, for the two types I found the process pretty similar, as many of the answer choices play off this language of being too broad /narrow or including things that arent necessarily the case.

Thanks for all the input guys.

[Jon McCarty]

i get why you were saying that though
mbt we're generally pulling info down
assumptions aren't explicit
and sa certainly aren't always true
but a na is something that must be true for an argument to follow, period

I was referring to MBT as a question type. I see how you're viewing it, which is that the answer choice must be true (it's necessary) for the conclusion to follow. This is correct, but it is much different than the answer choice being correct on a MBT question.

It is true however that an answer choice being correct on a MBT question would preclude it from being correct on a RA question and vice versa. They are mutually exclusive.

[Jon McCarty]

Answer choice C would not actually be correct on a MBT question because we cannot infer with certainty from the stim that it is true. We know that geologic quiet regions don't contain big fault lines but that doesn't necessarily mean that every potential nuclear site is near one of the smaller fault lines in the region. Imagine if the region was huge, like the entire Midwest. There could potentially be sites within this quiet region that aren't near any fault lines. The assumption is that there are no such sites, but that doesn't have to be true according to the stim.

This does bring up an interesting point though. Sometimes when people are struggling with RA questions it is because their brains are automatically making sense of what they're reading. We are conditioned through everyday life to make sense of statements that require assumptions. This means that if you are on a RA question and read an answer choice and have the reaction "they already established that" or "this must be true" then you should carefully consider if they actually did establish it. Most times it was not actually stated nor inferred, but rather your mind filled in the gap for you. If the answer choice truly must be true then it can be definitively eliminated as an answer choice, but if it is just your brain filling in the gaps then it's probably the correct answer. I believe that this is what happened for you on this question which is why you viewed it as being correct on a MBT. Be aware of this trick your mind can play on you going forward and it can help you get some more of those RA questions correct!

damn you're right.

I guess my point everyone should pay attention to was the part about differentiating between answer choices, for the two types I found the process pretty similar, as many of the answer choices play off this language of being too broad /narrow or including things that arent necessarily the case.

Thanks for all the input guys.

No problem, let me know if you have any questions in the future!

[03152016]

i get why you were saying that though
mbt we're generally pulling info down
assumptions aren't explicit
and sa certainly aren't always true
but a na is something that must be true for an argument to follow, period

I was referring to MBT as a question type. I see how you're viewing it, which is that the answer choice must be true (it's necessary) for the conclusion to follow. This is correct, but it is much different than the answer choice being correct on a MBT question.

It is true however that an answer choice being correct on a MBT question would preclude it from being correct on a RA question and vice versa. They are mutually exclusive.

is ra the same as a necessary assumption? never heard that one before

[Jon McCarty]

i get why you were saying that though
mbt we're generally pulling info down
assumptions aren't explicit
and sa certainly aren't always true
but a na is something that must be true for an argument to follow, period

I was referring to MBT as a question type. I see how you're viewing it, which is that the answer choice must be true (it's necessary) for the conclusion to follow. This is correct, but it is much different than the answer choice being correct on a MBT question.

It is true however that an answer choice being correct on a MBT question would preclude it from being correct on a RA question and vice versa. They are mutually exclusive.

is ra the same as a necessary assumption? never heard that one before

sorry, yes. It stands for Required Assumption

[03152016]

o ok
hang on a second i want to find another 'you're wrong gif'

please stand by

[03152016]

everyone who has the material available
please turn your attention to pt31 s2 q17
clearly a must be true
and the answer is undeniably a necessary assumption of the argument

qed

[Jon McCarty]

I think you're confused between an inference an an assumption, it's a common mistake. Inferences must be true according to the information given whereas assumptions are unstated premises. Here's how you should view this issue:

On a must be true question the correct answer must be fully supported by the information in the stim. This means that the argument already contains the information. How could it be necessary to add something to an argument that it already inherently contains?

On a necessary assumption question the correct answer is an unstated premise that is required to reach the conclusion. If it is necessary to add it to the argument then how could the argument already inherently contain it?

Good luck in your studies!

[03152016]

I think you're confused between an inference an an assumption, it's a common mistake. Inferences must be true according to the information given whereas assumptions are unstated premises. Here's how you should view this issue:

On a must be true question the correct answer must be fully supported by the information in the stim. This means that the argument already contains the information. How could it be necessary to add something to an argument that it already inherently contains?

On a necessary assumption question the correct answer is an unstated premise that is required to reach the conclusion. If it is necessary to add it to the argument then how could the argument already inherently contain it?

Good luck in your studies!

i'm not studying lol
i teach lsat professionally
i've worked with hundreds of students over the past couple of years
and scored a 179 myself, with two perfect LR sections

you're super wrong my bro

in both a mbt and a na, the answer must be supported by the passage
as you can see in the question i cited, the correct mbt answer was not explicit
it was an unstated assumption of the passage
ergo, mbt and na are not mutually exclusive

further, don't think of na as something "added" to an argument to make it true
that's not what a na does, that's what a sa does
think of a na as something that must be true for an argument to follow
ergo, it must be true

[03152016]

btw, it really should be a 180
not to belabor the point or anything
but my fucking proctor was a jackass who didn't know how to read a watch
i got cheated out of my 180 damnit

been two years and i'm still pissed

[03152016]

by "supported by the passage" btw
i don't mean that you literally pull it down from the passage necessarily
that's much more mbt than na

so let me rephrase that
since i've been drinking several beers
and am ineloquent

both mbt and na should be something necessary to the argument
if logically negated
it contradicts something in the argument, or hurts the argument in some way