Need immediate advice on RC Forum

[Rexdan]

Hey guys--

Long story short, I need some dire advice on the RC section of the test. Is it me, or have the recent tests gotten harder with the RC section? I've gone from getting between 17-20 questions correct on those sections to as low as 12!

As I'm reading, I try to focus on the points being discussed in each paragraph; try to find the important support sentences; and bring it all together. This seems to take a good chunk of time and I usually end up with one passage left unread all the while spending 2-3 minutes on head scratching questions. Am I going about it the wrong way?

Can anyone here point me in the right direction?

P.S. taking June test.

[cslouisck]

Yes, they've gotten harder, but unfortunately I don't have any useful advice for you since RC was just something that came naturally to me. If you're missing that many at this point, though, consider rescheduling because you don't have enough time to fix those sort of issues before the test date. Taking in October isn't the end of the world and you'll (perhaps) save yourself a disappointing score.

[Yeezus]

I don't think the recent RC sections have gotten harder, but the questions they ask are different. With the new RC, I think the questions are a little more detail oriented. I usually think people are better off slowing down in order to improve, but you might have the opposite problem. Try reading the passages a little more quickly while marking up the important parts (examples, quotes, names, etc.) and try to look back at the passage as the questions tell you to. You don't need to understand everything about the passage the first time around.

[w0w]

Read the questions first- and notate anything specific in the passage. You only get points for answering the questions correctly, not for brining the passage together. It will help you read more purposefully if know in advance wha specific details you are looking for and then what the general themes you need to get the gist of.

[Rexdan]

Read the questions first- and notate anything specific in the passage. You only get points for answering the questions correctly, not for brining the passage together. It will help you read more purposefully if know in advance wha specific details you are looking for and then what the general themes you need to get the gist of.

I thought about doing this. Have you done it? Did it work out for you?

I was thinking: read questions that ask specifics first, read through the passage; as soon as you get to something that you remembered from the questions, stop and do the question; continue with the reading (and getting the overall argument structure); finish answering questions.

[Rexdan]

I just did the third passage from the December 2007 test, Section 4. Took about 4 minutes to read the passage (looked for MP's and marked what was important; was a comparative passage), and 2:03 to answer the five questions that came with it...Got them all correct.

I did things like remind myself in the back of my head that something was mentioned in both, both seem to have the overall same agreement, etc.

Starting to think that I may have just had a confidence issue on Wednesday when I last took a PT in the RC section. Also, after going over one of my Manhattan books (going to look over LSAT Trainer later today as well to reread a chapter about structure because I remember it being incredibly eye-opening), I realized that I might have been in "LR Mode" when I was reading RC before.

Did I just luck out in this drilled passage, or what?

P.S. I know why the other answers are incorrect and I did not try the method where I read specific questions first.

[Clyde Frog]

Read the questions first- and notate anything specific in the passage. You only get points for answering the questions correctly, not for brining the passage together. It will help you read more purposefully if know in advance wha specific details you are looking for and then what the general themes you need to get the gist of.

That is horrible advice. You need to bring the passage together for most of the questions. This isn't the SAT.

[haroldton86]

Read the questions first- and notate anything specific in the passage. You only get points for answering the questions correctly, not for brining the passage together. It will help you read more purposefully if know in advance wha specific details you are looking for and then what the general themes you need to get the gist of.

Anyone ever actually tried this? Sounds interesting but probably far fetched. Sometimes I feel like that would help if you scanned the questions for certain particular detail questions and then just answered them when you run across it in the passage.

[vracovino]

I've just implemented Manhattan's method and its been really helping me quite a bit. Granted, these are the older PTs I'm working on. But they suggest reading through each paragraph twice, which I realize seems absolutely absurd. But it really works, especially on particularly confusing passages. I adapted it a bit to fit Voyager's guide. The first time through, I read through the paragraph and put boxes around new names and key terms. Then I quickly skim the passage again, underlining what I believe to be the most important parts of the passage, as well as placing an A or B next to each paragraph (or area of the paragraph) in reference to which side of the argument the passage is discussing. I'll always put a little "Author" designation in the margin if I locate the author's point of view as explicitly stated.

I find that it allows for pretty quick reading (~4 minutes) and that I feel like I am in much greater "control" when it comes to answering the questions.

[birdlaw624]

Read the questions first- and notate anything specific in the passage. You only get points for answering the questions correctly, not for brining the passage together. It will help you read more purposefully if know in advance wha specific details you are looking for and then what the general themes you need to get the gist of.

Anyone ever actually tried this? Sounds interesting but probably far fetched. Sometimes I feel like that would help if you scanned the questions for certain particular detail questions and then just answered them when you run across it in the passage.

I haven't tried it. I read the PS RC bible awhile ago and I'm pretty sure they mention this method specifically and tell you not to do this. Personally, I think if I used this method it might be helpful for the "according to the passage" and other detail specific questions but would make the opinion and questions about the scale of the passage much more difficult. I think overall the traditional methods that Manhattan and the trainer teach you are a much better method for rc

[Clyde Frog]

Read the questions first- and notate anything specific in the passage. You only get points for answering the questions correctly, not for brining the passage together. It will help you read more purposefully if know in advance wha specific details you are looking for and then what the general themes you need to get the gist of.

Anyone ever actually tried this? Sounds interesting but probably far fetched. Sometimes I feel like that would help if you scanned the questions for certain particular detail questions and then just answered them when you run across it in the passage.

I actually tried this method for like a week and it was an epic fail. You lose the flow of the passage and end up spending way more time, in addition to having less accuracy.

[Clyde Frog]

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 0#p7682860

Just came across this the other day and it's probably the best RC guide I've seen yet on TLS.

[w0w]

We'll i do this every time and I just went -2 on dec '13 RC section yesterday. I'm not saying make a notation for every single question. What I'm saying is when you see a very specific Q about a specific detail, notating it will help you know what you are reading for when you get to that section or where it is mentioned. It also helps you think "oh, this detail is important" when you see it. RC is not about memorizing a bunch of details from the passage but some of the detail is important. Conversely, it allows you to know going in if most of the questions will be broad and general which allow you to read the passage for purpose and tone and not dwell on the details as much. Also, notating it ahead of time saves you time searching the passage when the 6th q asks about some random detail you don't remember where it was mentioned.

It might not work for everyone but give it a try and see. It took me a few trys to figure out how much time to spend doing it so it was useful and not a waste but now I wouldn't read a passage without doing it. Like I said- you are only getting points for answering the questions correctly. Why would you go into a passage not knowing what to look for?

[unodostres]

read the questions before? wtf. the questions are all the same and the answers are all so close to eachtoehr without even reading the passage. horrible advice. do not do that. reminds me of middle school when they told us to read the questions... lol

read the passage. understand how each paragraph plays with the entire passage. see that structure where the views lie, mainpoint, get the big picture, and refer back to minuscule details when at the questions.

[Clyde Frog]

We'll i do this every time and I just went -2 on dec '13 RC section yesterday. I'm not saying make a notation for every single question. What I'm saying is when you see a very specific Q about a specific detail, notating it will help you know what you are reading for when you get to that section or where it is mentioned. It also helps you think "oh, this detail is important" when you see it. RC is not about memorizing a bunch of details from the passage but some of the detail is important. Conversely, it allows you to know going in if most of the questions will be broad and general which allow you to read the passage for purpose and tone and not dwell on the details as much. Also, notating it ahead of time saves you time searching the passage when the 6th q asks about some random detail you don't remember where it was mentioned.

It might not work for everyone but give it a try and see. It took me a few trys to figure out how much time to spend doing it so it was useful and not a waste but now I wouldn't read a passage without doing it. Like I said- you are only getting points for answering the questions correctly. Why would you go into a passage not knowing what to look for?

Oh okay. I wouldn't have a problem scanning a detail question and marking it as I go along but I certainly wouldn't try to keep all the questions in my head and then read the passage.

I think you might just be a lot more observant than most people. It would be hard for me to focus on the passage and keep a question in my head, since I would essentially just be treasure hunting the passage without getting the real message.

I personally wouldn't use the method myself since I can almost always spot he section of the passage that the question is referring to right away. I feel that if you pause after each passage and ask yourself what is important here then you won't have any issues finding things.

[w0w]

read the questions before? wtf. the questions are all the same and the answers are all so close to eachtoehr without even reading the passage.

Let me clarify- read the question STEM - not the ACs- that would be a huge waste of time. You are only making notations for SPECIFIC questions. And making a mental note of what kinds of general questions are asked. It literally takes MAYBE and extra 30 seconds depending on the amt of specific Qs.

[w0w]

We'll i do this every time and I just went -2 on dec '13 RC section yesterday. I'm not saying make a notation for every single question. What I'm saying is when you see a very specific Q about a specific detail, notating it will help you know what you are reading for when you get to that section or where it is mentioned. It also helps you think "oh, this detail is important" when you see it. RC is not about memorizing a bunch of details from the passage but some of the detail is important. Conversely, it allows you to know going in if most of the questions will be broad and general which allow you to read the passage for purpose and tone and not dwell on the details as much. Also, notating it ahead of time saves you time searching the passage when the 6th q asks about some random detail you don't remember where it was mentioned.

It might not work for everyone but give it a try and see. It took me a few trys to figure out how much time to spend doing it so it was useful and not a waste but now I wouldn't read a passage without doing it. Like I said- you are only getting points for answering the questions correctly. Why would you go into a passage not knowing what to look for?

Oh okay. I wouldn't have a problem scanning a detail question and marking it as I go along but I certainly wouldn't try to keep all the questions in my head and then read the passage.

I think you might just be a lot more observant than most people. It would be hard for me to focus on the passage and keep a question in my head, since I would essentially just be treasure hunting the passage without getting the real message.

I personally wouldn't use the method myself since I can almost always spot he section of the passage that the question is referring to right away. I feel that if you pause after each passage and ask yourself what is important here then you won't have any issues finding things.

Yeah, the point is not to memorize the questions first at all, it's to have a feel for what you are reading for and to be intentional about that as you are reading. There are a lot of details in there that are meant to bog you down and knowing what details you are looking for helps weed them out and focus on the big picture.

[haroldton86]

We'll i do this every time and I just went -2 on dec '13 RC section yesterday. I'm not saying make a notation for every single question. What I'm saying is when you see a very specific Q about a specific detail, notating it will help you know what you are reading for when you get to that section or where it is mentioned. It also helps you think "oh, this detail is important" when you see it. RC is not about memorizing a bunch of details from the passage but some of the detail is important. Conversely, it allows you to know going in if most of the questions will be broad and general which allow you to read the passage for purpose and tone and not dwell on the details as much. Also, notating it ahead of time saves you time searching the passage when the 6th q asks about some random detail you don't remember where it was mentioned.

It might not work for everyone but give it a try and see. It took me a few trys to figure out how much time to spend doing it so it was useful and not a waste but now I wouldn't read a passage without doing it. Like I said- you are only getting points for answering the questions correctly. Why would you go into a passage not knowing what to look for?

Oh okay. I wouldn't have a problem scanning a detail question and marking it as I go along but I certainly wouldn't try to keep all the questions in my head and then read the passage.

I think you might just be a lot more observant than most people. It would be hard for me to focus on the passage and keep a question in my head, since I would essentially just be treasure hunting the passage without getting the real message.

I personally wouldn't use the method myself since I can almost always spot he section of the passage that the question is referring to right away. I feel that if you pause after each passage and ask yourself what is important here then you won't have any issues finding things.

Yeah, the point is not to memorize the questions first at all, it's to have a feel for what you are reading for and to be intentional about that as you are reading. There are a lot of details in there that are meant to bog you down and knowing what details you are looking for helps weed them out and focus on the big picture.

You've presented your case pretty well. I'll have to give this a try. And then if it works I may publish a book on it.

[w0w]

We'll i do this every time and I just went -2 on dec '13 RC section yesterday. I'm not saying make a notation for every single question. What I'm saying is when you see a very specific Q about a specific detail, notating it will help you know what you are reading for when you get to that section or where it is mentioned. It also helps you think "oh, this detail is important" when you see it. RC is not about memorizing a bunch of details from the passage but some of the detail is important. Conversely, it allows you to know going in if most of the questions will be broad and general which allow you to read the passage for purpose and tone and not dwell on the details as much. Also, notating it ahead of time saves you time searching the passage when the 6th q asks about some random detail you don't remember where it was mentioned.

It might not work for everyone but give it a try and see. It took me a few trys to figure out how much time to spend doing it so it was useful and not a waste but now I wouldn't read a passage without doing it. Like I said- you are only getting points for answering the questions correctly. Why would you go into a passage not knowing what to look for?

Oh okay. I wouldn't have a problem scanning a detail question and marking it as I go along but I certainly wouldn't try to keep all the questions in my head and then read the passage.

I think you might just be a lot more observant than most people. It would be hard for me to focus on the passage and keep a question in my head, since I would essentially just be treasure hunting the passage without getting the real message.

I personally wouldn't use the method myself since I can almost always spot he section of the passage that the question is referring to right away. I feel that if you pause after each passage and ask yourself what is important here then you won't have any issues finding things.

Yeah, the point is not to memorize the questions first at all, it's to have a feel for what you are reading for and to be intentional about that as you are reading. There are a lot of details in there that are meant to bog you down and knowing what details you are looking for helps weed them out and focus on the big picture.

You've presented your case pretty well. I'll have to give this a try. And then if it works I may publish a book on it.

Have at it, that's more work than I'm willing to do on the subject.

[Rexdan]

We'll i do this every time and I just went -2 on dec '13 RC section yesterday. I'm not saying make a notation for every single question. What I'm saying is when you see a very specific Q about a specific detail, notating it will help you know what you are reading for when you get to that section or where it is mentioned. It also helps you think "oh, this detail is important" when you see it. RC is not about memorizing a bunch of details from the passage but some of the detail is important. Conversely, it allows you to know going in if most of the questions will be broad and general which allow you to read the passage for purpose and tone and not dwell on the details as much. Also, notating it ahead of time saves you time searching the passage when the 6th q asks about some random detail you don't remember where it was mentioned.

It might not work for everyone but give it a try and see. It took me a few trys to figure out how much time to spend doing it so it was useful and not a waste but now I wouldn't read a passage without doing it. Like I said- you are only getting points for answering the questions correctly. Why would you go into a passage not knowing what to look for?

Oh okay. I wouldn't have a problem scanning a detail question and marking it as I go along but I certainly wouldn't try to keep all the questions in my head and then read the passage.

I think you might just be a lot more observant than most people. It would be hard for me to focus on the passage and keep a question in my head, since I would essentially just be treasure hunting the passage without getting the real message.

I personally wouldn't use the method myself since I can almost always spot he section of the passage that the question is referring to right away. I feel that if you pause after each passage and ask yourself what is important here then you won't have any issues finding things.

Yeah, the point is not to memorize the questions first at all, it's to have a feel for what you are reading for and to be intentional about that as you are reading. There are a lot of details in there that are meant to bog you down and knowing what details you are looking for helps weed them out and focus on the big picture.

You've presented your case pretty well. I'll have to give this a try. And then if it works I may publish a book on it.

Publish a book? Geez, a whole book dedicated to the preparation you should do before even starting your initial read through a passage haha. I'm going to do a bit of both and then cross reference my answers with which passages I did the above-mentioned method as well as the "big picture" approach.

[unodostres]

i still don't understand. you're going to go through 5-7 questions to see if there could be a simple direct answer choice in the passage?

i mean really you should be able to break each paragraph down so when you do hit that answer you go back to that paragraph. but to each their own. this seems like it wastes 30 seconds / passage so a good two minutes that could be saved.

[haroldton86]

i still don't understand. you're going to go through 5-7 questions to see if there could be a simple direct answer choice in the passage?

i mean really you should be able to break each paragraph down so when you do hit that answer you go back to that paragraph. but to each their own. this seems like it wastes 30 seconds / passage so a good two minutes that could be saved.

Look-- I haven't tried it so I'm not an authority, but it can make sense. To each their own of course.

If you have a general idea of the types of inferences/questions/details that are important for the questions, you can more easily dissect the text and be alerted when something that seems relevant comes up. For instance, if a question mentions what does the author mean by "....." well, when you're reading and you see that phrase you can notate it and know where it is for when you get to the question again and you will probably understand it better as you will have considered it while reading.

I think this can beat the idea of what Clyde Frog's link was talking about. The guy wanted you to underline analogies, main points, certain cue words, etc. But isn't that really the same thing that wOw is talking about, except more focused?

I really don't know if this works yet--but abstractly it seems to make some sense and I am looking forward to trying it because I can't seem to get below -3 on an RC section, and I need something.

[Rexdan]

i still don't understand. you're going to go through 5-7 questions to see if there could be a simple direct answer choice in the passage?

i mean really you should be able to break each paragraph down so when you do hit that answer you go back to that paragraph. but to each their own. this seems like it wastes 30 seconds / passage so a good two minutes that could be saved.

You're basically scanning the questions for any questions that ask you about specific details. "Default questions" (author's POV, how different or similar two passages/sides to an argument are, etc.) should just be left alone because you *should* be able to answer them without much issue. Just make sure that you at least understand what's going on in the passage before going into those kinds of questions. You don't have to understand the passage in its entirety; just enough to know that the author says x because of y,z and is against w for s,t; no opinion is mentioned, just facts; the author presents two contrasting points and either advocates for one, none, or tries to resolve the issue; yada yada.

I'm kind of at the fence with the detail-oriented questions, though. If the RC section has, indeed, gotten slightly more difficult because of these questions, then maybe this is a good idea. For me, anyway. Everyone's different. Oh, I checked out the link that you posted Clyde Frog. What the_pakalypse says in regards to the RC section makes 100% sense to me. In fact, IIRC, Mike actually made mention of something similar in his book (about actively engaging in the material). You know what, that may have been my issue with this section. From what I can remember from my previous PT, I was reading a bit too mechanically. Maybe that's why my mind was in LR mode when I was reading the passages?

[Clyde Frog]

i still don't understand. you're going to go through 5-7 questions to see if there could be a simple direct answer choice in the passage?

i mean really you should be able to break each paragraph down so when you do hit that answer you go back to that paragraph. but to each their own. this seems like it wastes 30 seconds / passage so a good two minutes that could be saved.

Look-- I haven't tried it so I'm not an authority, but it can make sense. To each their own of course.

If you have a general idea of the types of inferences/questions/details that are important for the questions, you can more easily dissect the text and be alerted when something that seems relevant comes up. For instance, if a question mentions what does the author mean by "....." well, when you're reading and you see that phrase you can notate it and know where it is for when you get to the question again and you will probably understand it better as you will have considered it while reading.

I think this can beat the idea of what Clyde Frog's link was talking about. The guy wanted you to underline analogies, main points, certain cue words, etc. But isn't that really the same thing that wOw is talking about, except more focused?

I really don't know if this works yet--but abstractly it seems to make some sense and I am looking forward to trying it because I can't seem to get below -3 on an RC section, and I need something.

Realize that not all questions are detail/identification questions. The synthesis type questions are the hardest of the RC question types and are what separates those that score in the high 170s and those that don't. The identification type questions that w0w is talking about are generally the easiest and you should know right away what part of the passage pertains to them. For the synthesis questions you need to bring information together from different parts of the passage to get the answers, which is why I don't find the method useful. I do, however, think it could provide some help in the comparative reading passage.

[w0w]

i still don't understand. you're going to go through 5-7 questions to see if there could be a simple direct answer choice in the passage?

i mean really you should be able to break each paragraph down so when you do hit that answer you go back to that paragraph. but to each their own. this seems like it wastes 30 seconds / passage so a good two minutes that could be saved.

Look-- I haven't tried it so I'm not an authority, but it can make sense. To each their own of course.

If you have a general idea of the types of inferences/questions/details that are important for the questions, you can more easily dissect the text and be alerted when something that seems relevant comes up. For instance, if a question mentions what does the author mean by "....." well, when you're reading and you see that phrase you can notate it and know where it is for when you get to the question again and you will probably understand it better as you will have considered it while reading.

I think this can beat the idea of what Clyde Frog's link was talking about. The guy wanted you to underline analogies, main points, certain cue words, etc. But isn't that really the same thing that wOw is talking about, except more focused?

I really don't know if this works yet--but abstractly it seems to make some sense and I am looking forward to trying it because I can't seem to get below -3 on an RC section, and I need something.

Realize that not all questions are detail/identification questions. The synthesis type questions are the hardest of the RC question types and are what separates those that score in the high 170s and those that don't. The identification type questions that w0w is talking about are generally the easiest and you should know right away what part of the passage pertains to them. For the synthesis questions you need to bring information together from different parts of the passage to get the answers, which is why I don't find the method useful. I do, however, think it could provide some help in the comparative reading passage.

The reason I think it actually IS usefully in the synthesis questions is that once you know what details you need to be on the lookout for it frees your mind up to take in the big picture. SO many test takers focus on notating those analogies, lists, etc that they don't really take in the main points of the passage. At least that's that it's done for me. Instead of trying to prep the passage while I read for specifics I can breeze through it and focus on the main point and the purpose. It allows me to think more about what the author would agree and disagree with rather that trying to ID every time there is something I might need. Also so many of the synthesis questions come down to verbiage between two ACs that makes one right and or wrong- the differences are easier to spot when you had a big picture idea of the passage. Before when I would read for big picture I would waste a lot of time trying to find those details that it was a wash.