feel like I'll never be good at logic games. Forum

[flash21]

I've improved on LR and RC I can tell will improve with the LSAT trainer since I'll have strategies to implement and an will learn to read it in the right way.

However, with games I feel kind of hopeless - I've got manhattan LG which I thought was good , and LGB too. I've been drilling, but I feel like I pretty often come across games I am not sure how to diagram. Not really sure if not having study material is the issue since both of these books have been proven good enough to great LG scores by many on here, but I'm not quite sure what my problem is with games. Like I said, I cannot properly diagram some games which completely screws me over but I dont know how to fix this.

[Jeffort]

It would be helpful if you were to list references (PT and game#) of games that you were not able to figure out how to diagram using the methods you have learned. Other than the few unique oddball games that appeared in some tests from the early 90s, the rest are types covered in both the LGB and MLSAT games books that are amenable to the diagramming techniques taught in the books. What types of specific things/types of relationships are you having trouble figuring out how to diagram?

[flash21]

PT1, game 2

pt 20, game 1

Here are a few I couldn't diagram at first. I know, I can go to the 7sage video. But the issue is that I would like to be able diagram these myself.

thanks

[crestor]

Stick in there man. I thought LG was impossible when I'd glance at them during undergrad. On diag I BOMBED them. Eventually it will start to click and they call LG most learnable for a reason.

[RobertGolddust]

You and me both. I Just started doing full length game sections, pt 33 -3, but I did 3 out of the 4 games before, on my PTs though I miss 10 or 11 questions. Tomorrow I'm going to do a 5 sections in a row of games, all timed, see if that helps me out a bit.

[10052014]

.

[Innovative]

One thing that I know helped me and others is to not get so caught up in the "I need to be familiar with this game or I won't be able to handle it" mentality. Always keep in mind that all the answers will come with what's given (which is normally just a few rules and a short lead in). Very manageable. In fact, some games don't even need diagrams (rule driving a game with lots of conditionals). Slow down at the start and don't rush into the game. If you've been reviewing your LG books, you've got all the tools to -0 the LG section.

[RobertGolddust]

Jay lawyer, I'm going to review them after I finish all 5. Probably not ideal if your just learning the ropes, but I've been doing games all summer and I read PS lg last summer and again this winter.

[ScottRiqui]

OP - I used to **suck** at logic games. Eight of the fifteen questions I missed on the June test were in games. Now, my issues were a little different than yours; I could always draw a good diagram, but I was slow to make inferences and usually ran out of time as I slogged through a bunch of hypos. A "fast" game for me was around 8:00, even after a couple months of prep. I hit a plateau fairly early in my prep, and was stuck there for quite a while.

But, about a week after the June test, the light came on, and improvements have been swift and drastic since then. Basically, I'm just saying that progress in games isn't always steady, but it will come to you.

[Clearly]

Velocity lsat, for real. ESP if lgb and mlsat aren't doing it for you.

[flash21]

velocity is good why? I've heard good things but how can it be any better than 7sage / books?

[ScottRiqui]

velocity is good why? I've heard good things but how can it be any better than 7sage / books?

Velocity's approach for games is different enough from 7sage and similar methods that it's definitely worth checking out, especially if you're stuck and not making progress. Velocity didn't end up being the best for me, but I don't regret spending the money on it.

[flash21]

how much is it?

[ScottRiqui]

how much is it?

I got the full LR/RC/Games Velocity course, including books, but I think the digital-only version of the Games course, and access to all of Dave's videos, is $275.

[flash21]

hmm I don't think I'm willing to get another course for LG. I've tried 7sage which I liked a lot for everything but my games section still isn't that good. Any other suggestions? Again, I'm not sure if resources are the issue or maybe my fundamentals are just awful.

[Clearly]

nope, I'm sticking with my velocity recommendation.

[kennedy]

Have you thought about working through LG grouped by type? I had the same issue as you where I would end up just feeling pretty horrible about myself because of frustration. I just worked through a ton of basic linear balanced, and now feel absolutely fantastic about it and able to progress in my prep.

[flash21]

yeah kennedy I have . generally, I feel pretty comfortable with advanced linear, and im pretty good at linear games single layered. grouping games I kinda suck on, but I feel like when I do a PT i freeze up on games and I'm like "ok wtf do I do with this game??"

[Rollontheground]

I think it's really important to drill game types as you learn them. I read Manhattan's LG book in June, and then, once I started studying LR, I was bombing LG all through July. I had forgotten everything. I started re-reading Manhattan's LG book a few weeks ago and drilling an additional 5 or so games with each chapter, though, and I'm doing much better.

P.s: Anyone have any advice on Powerscore vs Manhattan? My sister used the LGB and when I saw some of her diagrams for Relative Ordering an Open conditional Grouping, I decided I wasn't even going to open the LGB. Manhattan's method for these is just so ... clean.

P.p.s: Scott and Clearly, do either of you feel it is worth it if you're around -5 per section? Mostly timing — are they FASTER?

[rebexness]

7sage LG videos.

Sometimes If I am completely lost I will just watch the setup portion and then complete the rest of the game myself.

ETA: sometimes I figure out the diagram using the first q on the game, if I have no idea.

[ThetaX]

7Sage is a life saver. Also, redo games many times.

[tuffyjohnson]

It's been real slow for me too, but I'm not giving up. Your probably going to have to put a couple hundred hours into LG. I have and no game is out of reach for me now. But time is still a problem.

[jk148706]

they call LG most learnable for a reason.

It really is

[bp shinners]

I feel like when I do a PT i freeze up on games and I'm like "ok wtf do I do with this game??"

I see this all the time, and it's usually because students are trying to figure the whole game out before they've gotten through the initial steps. If you get into one of those WTF moments, start with the basics. Am I ordering, or grouping? If I'm grouping, is everyone selected? If everyone's selected, are there two groups, or more than two groups? Can people be selected more than once?

Instead of trying to figure out that this is a complicated, multi-group grouping game with repeated variables, start with just figuring out grouping versus ordering. Then, build from there. It's easy to get lost if you don't take logic games one step at a time.

I always tell people the LSAT, logic games in particular, isn't difficult because of extremely difficult conceptual issues; instead, the difficulty comes from asking you to do a ton of simple steps without making any mistakes. So instead of focusing on the entire game, focus on each simple step, one at a time, and don't make any mistakes.