Struggling with prep Forum

[blklscandidate]

I cannot lie the last time I took an practice LSAT was August 8th (LSAT 53) and I scored a 136. That was after 2 months of practicing but 1 month with Power Score. I put off October, now Im putting off it off until February because the worse thing I can do is go into test day unprepared and lay a 130 egg. I see everybody posting 165's and 179's and making it seem like no big deal like, "Yeah I scored a 173, but I could have got a 180 if the lady sitting next to me didnt sneeze". Psshh Im just trying to get a 150-155. Im getting back on my grind today. I work(this month) 48 hrs a week, 12 hrs a day for 4 days. For those who would say, "Take a class or online prep class or get a private tutor" would love to go the private tutor route. If I had the money, I would be with one every single day until February. However finances are tight and I have to make due with self study. Is it possible at all to reach a 155 in prep test or even a 160. Anybody ever known a person to make this type of leap in improvement? Do anybody have any tips for self study students? Am I wasting my time, should I go do something else? All helpful answers are appreciated.

[nick_scheu]

Where do you want to go to law school? Any law school that'll take a 155 isn't worth going to. I'm assuming based on your username that you're a URM... You'll probably need a (roughly) 160-165 to have a shot at a T20 school, and a good chance at T30 (assuming you have a solid GPA).

That said... The jump from a cold 150-155 to 163-167 is generally viewed as very possible, but I'm not sure how high you could get if a month of prep only got you to 136. I'd start thinking about options other than law school. Frankly, employment prospects aren't stellar for even the best of students.

[bitsy]

hey man, that sounds like a rough situation. i was a self-studier as well, and things turned out alright (i think). if you're on a budget, check local libraries for LSAT prep materials. there's a mediocre law school 20 mins from my house, and it was stocked with shelves of study material.

sounds like you could use some of the strategies from prep books designed to help you with different question types, so look into the powerscore/manhattan series. even princeton review and kaplan could be of some use. get comfortable with ways to attack questions and pick apart arguments. build up that confidence-- you seem a little down on yourself. start tackling preptests, one or two a week, once you're feeling better about your abilities.

best of luck. with hard work, your score will go up.

[drive4showLSAT4dough]

You can absolutely improve your score with self-study. That being said, know that you'll have to map out your time very carefully in order to make the most of it. But even working 50 hrs a week, you can still get 15 to 20 hrs of studying in a week.

Read this: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =6&t=41657 for an effective self-study strategy.

[ShiningDown]

Absolutely. You can surely improve your score tremendously through self prep. I suggest formulating a study plan. This by far is the greatest piece of advice I can give you.

[blklscandidate]

Where do you want to go to law school? Any law school that'll take a 155 isn't worth going to. I'm assuming based on your username that you're a URM... You'll probably need a (roughly) 160-165 to have a shot at a T20 school, and a good chance at T30 (assuming you have a solid GPA).

That said... The jump from a cold 150-155 to 163-167 is generally viewed as very possible, but I'm not sure how high you could get if a month of prep only got you to 136. I'd start thinking about options other than law school. Frankly, employment prospects aren't stellar for even the best of students.

Thanks for the real hard hitting advice. One question Im not really familar with all these accornyms what is a URM? About what school I want to go to: Im not out here trying to go to Stanford or Harvard, I would just like to get in one first. Another funny story about percieved top 20/30 schools I actually asked a elected official(who's a lawyer) if it mattered if a person went to Harvard or Stanford. Like does it make them a better lawyer....he put it to me this way: it's like basketball players who get drafted out of college. Lets assume they play the same position and both get drafted by the same team. One is from Duke(drafted in the 1st round) and the other is from...Montana State(undrafted). They both have accolades and decorated careers while playing for their schools but the difference is the guy from Duke got more media attention. But at the end of the day no matter what the media says the guy from Duke is suppose to do at the next level he still has to step on the court against the guy from Montana State. The point he was making was once you step out of school, that ranking doesnt matter anymore. I dont put a lot of emphasis into what schools are ranked. With that said, I do like schools like Thurgood Marshall, Southern Law Center, California Western, Thomas Jefferson, Whittier, Western State, and if I get lucky Texas Weslyn(soon to be Texas A&M).

[blklscandidate]

hey man, that sounds like a rough situation. i was a self-studier as well, and things turned out alright (i think). if you're on a budget, check local libraries for LSAT prep materials. there's a mediocre law school 20 mins from my house, and it was stocked with shelves of study material.

sounds like you could use some of the strategies from prep books designed to help you with different question types, so look into the powerscore/manhattan series. even princeton review and kaplan could be of some use. get comfortable with ways to attack questions and pick apart arguments. build up that confidence-- you seem a little down on yourself. start tackling preptests, one or two a week, once you're feeling better about your abilities.

best of luck. with hard work, your score will go up.

I got 5 books currently. The book with prep tests 52-61, powerscore lr, powerscore games, and others but I will surely go to the library to see if there are anymore helpful prep books. Thanks for the encouragement.

[JUburton]

Get a Kaplan Mastery (or similar) for LR questions by type. I think mine was 18 bucks shipped from a random seller on Amazon and it's been worth its weight in gold. OK, not literally, but it's been pretty good.

[nick_scheu]

Where do you want to go to law school? Any law school that'll take a 155 isn't worth going to. I'm assuming based on your username that you're a URM... You'll probably need a (roughly) 160-165 to have a shot at a T20 school, and a good chance at T30 (assuming you have a solid GPA).

That said... The jump from a cold 150-155 to 163-167 is generally viewed as very possible, but I'm not sure how high you could get if a month of prep only got you to 136. I'd start thinking about options other than law school. Frankly, employment prospects aren't stellar for even the best of students.

Thanks for the real hard hitting advice. One question Im not really familar with all these accornyms what is a URM? About what school I want to go to: Im not out here trying to go to Stanford or Harvard, I would just like to get in one first. Another funny story about percieved top 20/30 schools I actually asked a elected official(who's a lawyer) if it mattered if a person went to Harvard or Stanford. Like does it make them a better lawyer....he put it to me this way: it's like basketball players who get drafted out of college. Lets assume they play the same position and both get drafted by the same team. One is from Duke(drafted in the 1st round) and the other is from...Montana State(undrafted). They both have accolades and decorated careers while playing for their schools but the difference is the guy from Duke got more media attention. But at the end of the day no matter what the media says the guy from Duke is suppose to do at the next level he still has to step on the court against the guy from Montana State. The point he was making was once you step out of school, that ranking doesnt matter anymore. I dont put a lot of emphasis into what schools are ranked. With that said, I do like schools like Thurgood Marshall, Southern Law Center, California Western, Thomas Jefferson, Whittier, Western State, and if I get lucky Texas Weslyn(soon to be Texas A&M).

URM stands for Underrepresented Minority. At many schools it is significantly easier to be admitted as an URM.

Take advice from the "previous generation" with a huge grain of salt. That advice may make sense logically, but it assumes you get to "step on the court" with another lawyer in the first place. The problem is, many (and probably most in a lot of cases) lawyers from the schools you mention never find jobs as lawyers at all, and there isn't enough work available to build an independent practice as a new graduate.

In fact, graduates of Thomas Jefferson and schools like it have actually sued their alma mater after graduation for misrepresenting their employment prospects. In short, it's really, really bad.

Here's one anecdotal example: A friend of mine runs a small, one-man criminal defense practice. He does okay, but he has 15 or 20 years of experience. He was looking to hire an intern for $10 or $15 an hour. He got a ton of hugely overqualified responses, including a recent graduate of UCLA law (who attended Stanford for undergrad) who eagerly offered to relocate--for $15 an hour, in a tiny firm. UCLA is a top law school, too (though this is why this site often considers anything not Harvard, Yale, Stanford, or Columbia to not be "top"). Add to that, he probably had at least $100,000 in debt, and easily twice that, and you get a sense of how bad the job market is.

[TopHatToad]

Thanks for the real hard hitting advice. One question Im not really familar with all these accornyms what is a URM? About what school I want to go to: Im not out here trying to go to Stanford or Harvard, I would just like to get in one first. Another funny story about percieved top 20/30 schools I actually asked a elected official(who's a lawyer) if it mattered if a person went to Harvard or Stanford. Like does it make them a better lawyer....he put it to me this way: it's like basketball players who get drafted out of college. Lets assume they play the same position and both get drafted by the same team. One is from Duke(drafted in the 1st round) and the other is from...Montana State(undrafted). They both have accolades and decorated careers while playing for their schools but the difference is the guy from Duke got more media attention. But at the end of the day no matter what the media says the guy from Duke is suppose to do at the next level he still has to step on the court against the guy from Montana State. The point he was making was once you step out of school, that ranking doesnt matter anymore. I dont put a lot of emphasis into what schools are ranked. With that said, I do like schools like Thurgood Marshall, Southern Law Center, California Western, Thomas Jefferson, Whittier, Western State, and if I get lucky Texas Weslyn(soon to be Texas A&M).

1st- URM is defined as any applicant who identifies (at least in part) as Black/African-American, Native American, Mexican-American or Puerto Rican. Being one of those (as I imagine from your name you are) gives you a bump to your application. Check out websites like this one and see how far the URM bump takes you.

2nd- Your analogy is true, but it's flawed. How many of Duke's players go to the NBA every year, and how many of Montana State's do the same? You're absolutely correct that once you get your foot in the door at any given law firm your work product is far more important than your diploma; however, the odds of you getting there depend hugely on your school. The problem with the schools you listed at the end there (and most law schools, in fact) is that you're shelling out well over $100,000 for an incredibly small shot at the good jobs. I'll pick on T Marshall just because you mentioned it first:
Law School Transparency (LinkRemoved)
lists only 35% of its graduates as having long-term, full-time, bar-required jobs. Two-thirds of its graduates can't find ANY lawyer job, much less one that can pay off the estimated $130,000 in debt it'll cost them. Exactly 3 of its 163 graduates acquired a federal clerkship or job at a large firm, which is generally the only thing that can pay off massive debt like that.

Put simply, would you gamble a six-figure wad of cash on being in the top 3 of 163?

It's not a complete graveyard of aspiring lawyers out there though, there is hope. Dedicate yourself to prepping and hit about a 160 and those odds start to turn in your favor. Is it possible to make those gains? Hell yeah. Don't give up, but don't don't don't settle for any school that'd take you with less.

[blklscandidate]

Thanks for the real hard hitting advice. One question Im not really familar with all these accornyms what is a URM? About what school I want to go to: Im not out here trying to go to Stanford or Harvard, I would just like to get in one first. Another funny story about percieved top 20/30 schools I actually asked a elected official(who's a lawyer) if it mattered if a person went to Harvard or Stanford. Like does it make them a better lawyer....he put it to me this way: it's like basketball players who get drafted out of college. Lets assume they play the same position and both get drafted by the same team. One is from Duke(drafted in the 1st round) and the other is from...Montana State(undrafted). They both have accolades and decorated careers while playing for their schools but the difference is the guy from Duke got more media attention. But at the end of the day no matter what the media says the guy from Duke is suppose to do at the next level he still has to step on the court against the guy from Montana State. The point he was making was once you step out of school, that ranking doesnt matter anymore. I dont put a lot of emphasis into what schools are ranked. With that said, I do like schools like Thurgood Marshall, Southern Law Center, California Western, Thomas Jefferson, Whittier, Western State, and if I get lucky Texas Weslyn(soon to be Texas A&M).

1st- URM is defined as any applicant who identifies (at least in part) as Black/African-American, Native American, Mexican-American or Puerto Rican. Being one of those (as I imagine from your name you are) gives you a bump to your application. Check out websites like this one and see how far the URM bump takes you.

2nd- Your analogy is true, but it's flawed. How many of Duke's players go to the NBA every year, and how many of Montana State's do the same? You're absolutely correct that once you get your foot in the door at any given law firm your work product is far more important than your diploma; however, the odds of you getting there depend hugely on your school. The problem with the schools you listed at the end there (and most law schools, in fact) is that you're shelling out well over $100,000 for an incredibly small shot at the good jobs. I'll pick on T Marshall just because you mentioned it first:
Law School Transparency (LinkRemoved)
lists only 35% of its graduates as having long-term, full-time, bar-required jobs. Two-thirds of its graduates can't find ANY lawyer job, much less one that can pay off the estimated $130,000 in debt it'll cost them. Exactly 3 of its 163 graduates acquired a federal clerkship or job at a large firm, which is generally the only thing that can pay off massive debt like that.

Put simply, would you gamble a six-figure wad of cash on being in the top 3 of 163?

It's not a complete graveyard of aspiring lawyers out there though, there is hope. Dedicate yourself to prepping and hit about a 160 and those odds start to turn in your favor. Is it possible to make those gains? Hell yeah. Don't give up, but don't don't don't settle for any school that'd take you with less.

Those are some damning statistics, where do you find stats like that?

[nick_scheu]

He linked to Law School Transparency, which has statistics like those.

Not trying to be rude, but OP is starting to smell like a troll.

[josemnz83]

You sound like a reasonable person. I have some LSAT prep stuff that I can give you for free if you want. Shoot me a private message and I can email it to you. Best of luck!

[blklscandidate]

He linked to Law School Transparency, which has statistics like those.

Not trying to be rude, but OP is starting to smell like a troll.

Ok thanks and...I dont know who OP is but Im not a troll Im really looking for some advice.

[blklscandidate]

You sound like a reasonable person. I have some LSAT prep stuff that I can give you for free if you want. Shoot me a private message and I can email it to you. Best of luck!

Jose I just PM'd you. Thanks

[RCinDNA]

Study Pithypike's study guide (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =6&t=41657) to establish the basics. You may not be able to afford a tutor, but I suggest you invest in the Manhattan LSAT guides and the Cambridge LSAT bundles in addition to PowerScore. A lot of the high scores you see came after a lot of work; 2-3 hours a day at least of reviewing the different methods and practicing the application of the skills - 1 month of studying is just the tip of the iceberg. Also, you need to ensure that the quality of your studying is high: take notes on the different methods so you ensure that you understand them, jot down plans of attack for each question on note cards and take note on what each answer choice does and why the uncredited responses are incorrect and why the credited responses are correct. Web tools such as the LSATQA site helps you monitor patterns across multiple practice tests when you get to the point where you incorporate PTs into your prep and Manhattan LSAT has free discussion boards where they provide explanations for the different question types from various tests.

Last but not least, as a fellow URM (African American, LGBT, non-traditional applicant with 7+ years work experience as a paralegal), please make sure you know what you are getting into. There are books out there you can read such as "Do Not Go To Law School (Unless)" and "Should I Really Be a Lawyer?" (I'll correct the titles later if I find out they are wrong) in addition to blogs such as Inside the Law School Scam, Above the Law and Law School Transparency - try not to get offended since the tone of some of the posts on those sites are negative, but it helps to know which schools employment numbers are falsified, whose graduates are struggling and which schools are basically profit-driven enterprises which basically scam their students. Taking $90k-200k+ in debt to compete in an over-saturated market may not make sense for certain candidates. In fact, many of the most miserable lawyers I know graduated from prestigious schools (Harvard, Stanford, Yale and Columbia, for example), but found out they hate their jobs but can't easily leave due to the amount of debt they have. The other miserable lawyers graduate from lower-ranked schools, passed the bar but couldn't find jobs - many of them work as baristas, bartenders or bounced between temp positions. I'm not trying to be negative, but it wasn't clear if you had already done this self-assessment. Ignore if you have already taken this into account.

[alex.feuerman]

[quote="blklscandidate"][quote="nick_scheu"]Where do you want to go to law school? Any law school that'll take a 155 isn't worth going to. I'm assuming based on your username that you're a URM... You'll probably need a (roughly) 160-165 to have a shot at a T20 school, and a good chance at T30 (assuming you have a solid GPA).

That said... The jump from a cold 150-155 to 163-167 is generally viewed as very possible, but I'm not sure how high you could get if a month of prep only got you to 136. I'd start thinking about options other than law school. Frankly, employment prospects aren't stellar for even the best of students.[/quote]

Thanks for the real hard hitting advice. One question Im not really familar with all these accornyms what is a URM? About what school I want to go to: Im not out here trying to go to Stanford or Harvard, I would just like to get in one first. Another funny story about percieved top 20/30 schools I actually asked a elected official(who's a lawyer) if it mattered if a person went to Harvard or Stanford. Like does it make them a better lawyer....he put it to me this way: it's like basketball players who get drafted out of college. Lets assume they play the same position and both get drafted by the same team. One is from Duke(drafted in the 1st round) and the other is from...Montana State(undrafted). They both have accolades and decorated careers while playing for their schools but the difference is the guy from Duke got more media attention. But at the end of the day no matter what the media says the guy from Duke is suppose to do at the next level he still has to step on the court against the guy from Montana State. The point he was making was once you step out of school, that ranking doesnt matter anymore. I dont put a lot of emphasis into what schools are ranked. With that said, I do like schools like Thurgood Marshall, Southern Law Center, California Western, Thomas Jefferson, Whittier, Western State, and if I get lucky Texas Weslyn(soon to be Texas A&M).[/quote]

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/09/24/ ... aw-school/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/opini ... AC0ADD9DBD

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/17/busin ... B7AADED7FA

The legal market sucks. There are no jobs, and if you are lucky enough to get a job that pays $200k a year, this is what you can expect your life to be: --LinkRemoved--

Why do you want to be a lawyer? Do you genuinely like history? Do you enjoy following politics? Do you enjoy reading the constitution, and legalese, and political science treatises or scholarly journals on new cases and new legislation? Do you like this at all? Are you willing to work your ass of? Perhaps for over a year, to get a good enough LSAT score? Are you willing to work your ass off even harder during law school Arre you willing to put in the hours and effort necessary to pass the bar? Are you willing to work in a small office reviewing paper work getting paid just enough so that you don't want to quit but be miserable? Are you willing and able to take on perhaps over 100k+ in debt?

I am not trying to discourage you, I believe if they study long enough and good enough anyone can get a high enough score for a top school, and I believe that being a lawyer is a good thing if you do it for the right reasons. Just make sure you are.

[blklscandidate]

Where do you want to go to law school? Any law school that'll take a 155 isn't worth going to. I'm assuming based on your username that you're a URM... You'll probably need a (roughly) 160-165 to have a shot at a T20 school, and a good chance at T30 (assuming you have a solid GPA).

That said... The jump from a cold 150-155 to 163-167 is generally viewed as very possible, but I'm not sure how high you could get if a month of prep only got you to 136. I'd start thinking about options other than law school. Frankly, employment prospects aren't stellar for even the best of students.

Thanks for the real hard hitting advice. One question Im not really familar with all these accornyms what is a URM? About what school I want to go to: Im not out here trying to go to Stanford or Harvard, I would just like to get in one first. Another funny story about percieved top 20/30 schools I actually asked a elected official(who's a lawyer) if it mattered if a person went to Harvard or Stanford. Like does it make them a better lawyer....he put it to me this way: it's like basketball players who get drafted out of college. Lets assume they play the same position and both get drafted by the same team. One is from Duke(drafted in the 1st round) and the other is from...Montana State(undrafted). They both have accolades and decorated careers while playing for their schools but the difference is the guy from Duke got more media attention. But at the end of the day no matter what the media says the guy from Duke is suppose to do at the next level he still has to step on the court against the guy from Montana State. The point he was making was once you step out of school, that ranking doesnt matter anymore. I dont put a lot of emphasis into what schools are ranked. With that said, I do like schools like Thurgood Marshall, Southern Law Center, California Western, Thomas Jefferson, Whittier, Western State, and if I get lucky Texas Weslyn(soon to be Texas A&M).

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/09/24/ ... aw-school/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/opini ... AC0ADD9DBD

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/17/busin ... B7AADED7FA

The legal market sucks. There are no jobs, and if you are lucky enough to get a job that pays $200k a year, this is what you can expect your life to be: --LinkRemoved--

Why do you want to be a lawyer? Do you genuinely like history? Do you enjoy following politics? Do you enjoy reading the constitution, and legalese, and political science treatises or scholarly journals on new cases and new legislation? Do you like this at all? Are you willing to work your ass of? Perhaps for over a year, to get a good enough LSAT score? Are you willing to work your ass off even harder during law school Arre you willing to put in the hours and effort necessary to pass the bar? Are you willing to work in a small office reviewing paper work getting paid just enough so that you don't want to quit but be miserable? Are you willing and able to take on perhaps over 100k+ in debt?

I am not trying to discourage you, I believe if they study long enough and good enough anyone can get a high enough score for a top school, and I believe that being a lawyer is a good thing if you do it for the right reasons. Just make sure you are.

Lets put aside this LSAT issue to answer your question.
I would ask you this....what are really the right reasons?? If you ask me it depends on you....one lawyer(he's 30) told me he wanted to be a lawyer because of his love of law and order. You would think that's a dumb reason right?? But he works in the DA's office in the county I live in so it really wasnt that dumb because it paid off. I want to be lawyer because of the possibility of being my own employer through a private practice. I graduated with a degree in criminal justice and I choose it because of the versatility it offered career wise and I like the prospects of getting a law degree for the same reason. Not everyone who gets a law degree has to be a lawyer, there'sbeen people to make a good living with a law degree and not even practice. If that's not a good enough reason for you, thats fine because it's a good enough reason for me. Those few articles have made me think twice but still a good enough reason to me.

Do I genuinely like history? Yes

Do I enjoy politics? Absolutely although I think the presidential elections has been the biggest fraud in the last 40 years(another story for another thread).

Do you enjoy reading the constitution? I would say yes...it can be brutal reading it at times...but none the less enlightening.

Do you like political science treatises or scholarly journals on new cases and new legislation? Never read any....know where I can read some?

Am I willing to work my ass of? Yes

Perhaps for over a year, to get a good enough LSAT score? Mmm I really want to go in next fall but if that has be the case then thats what it's going to be.

Am I willing to work my ass off even harder during law school? It makes sense to.

Arre you willing to put in the hours and effort necessary to pass the bar? Lol to ask that question is comical because Im nowhere close to that point. But theoretically if I went through all of that then yes I would kill myself trying to pass that thing.

Are you willing to work in a small office reviewing paper work getting paid just enough so that you don't want to quit but be miserable? Got to start somewhere.

Are you willing and able to take on perhaps over 100k+ in debt? I put that reality in my head before even thinking about the LSAT. It is what it is. It's a gamble, a high risk/high reward proposition.

[boblawlob]

Here's one anecdotal example: A friend of mine runs a small, one-man criminal defense practice. He does okay, but he has 15 or 20 years of experience. He was looking to hire an intern for $10 or $15 an hour. He got a ton of hugely overqualified responses, including a recent graduate of UCLA law (who attended Stanford for undergrad) who eagerly offered to relocate--for $15 an hour, in a tiny firm. UCLA is a top law school, too (though this is why this site often considers anything not Harvard, Yale, Stanford, or Columbia to not be "top"). Add to that, he probably had at least $100,000 in debt, and easily twice that, and you get a sense of how bad the job market is.

This makes me rethink about wanting to go to UCLA law...

[Paul Campos]

Random number generator:

People who have played basketball for Duke and for an NBA team: 54

People who have played basketball for Montana State and for an NBA team: One

People who graduated from Columbia in 2011 and got a job that justified the cost of attendance: 255

People who graduated from Barry in 2011 who got a job that justified the cost of attendance: Zero.

Citations available upon request.

[M.M.]

Random number generator:

People who have played basketball for Duke and for an NBA team: 54

People who have played basketball for Montana State and for an NBA team: One

People who graduated from Columbia in 2011 and got a job that justified the cost of attendance: 255

People who graduated from Barry in 2011 who got a job that justified the cost of attendance: Zero.

Citations available upon request.

--ImageRemoved--

[blklscandidate]

Random number generator:

People who have played basketball for Duke and for an NBA team: 54

People who have played basketball for Montana State and for an NBA team: One

People who graduated from Columbia in 2011 and got a job that justified the cost of attendance: 255

People who graduated from Barry in 2011 who got a job that justified the cost of attendance: Zero.

Citations available upon request.

The NBA thing was a hypothetical...but I dont think it would take a source to know that, but I did ask for it. How about Memphis University from 2005-2009 compared to Duke 2005-2009. But back on topic I would like to see where you got the other numbers about justifying the cost of schools.

[TopHatToad]

Random number generator:

People who have played basketball for Duke and for an NBA team: 54

People who have played basketball for Montana State and for an NBA team: One

People who graduated from Columbia in 2011 and got a job that justified the cost of attendance: 255

People who graduated from Barry in 2011 who got a job that justified the cost of attendance: Zero.

Citations available upon request.

The NBA thing was a hypothetical...but I dont think it would take a source to know that, but I did ask for it. How about Memphis University from 2005-2009 compared to Duke 2005-2009. But back on topic I would like to see where you got the other numbers about justifying the cost of schools.

With that much debt, the only jobs that justify cost of attendance are market-paying jobs or federal clerkships, which are assumed to lead to market-paying jobs. On LST or anywhere else, check out the number of grads who went to Fed. Clerkships or firms with (hell I'll be generous) 101+ lawyers and you'll get your answer.