128 to 155 Forum

[sammy416]

I took my first cold diagnostic prep-test and scored a horrible 128 but I am giving myself 6 months of hardcore studying to receive either a 150 or 155(I am content with these scores btw). Is this achievable? Thank you!

[094320]

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[RMstratosphere]

Do not go to law school.

[sammy416]

What a great motivator you are. Your parents probably said the same thing for you.

[094320]

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[sammy416]

Sorry, I wasn't talking to you. Your advice was most generous, but the guy below you (RMstratosphere) was the person I was acknowledgment due to his rhetoric statement.

[Eichörnchen]

Sorry, I wasn't talking to you. Your advice was most generous, but the guy below you (RMstratosphere) was the person I was acknowledgment due to his rhetoric statement.

Are you ESL? Sorry if not, but if so, this could be a big factor in scoring so low. The LSAT requires an exact knowledge of English grammar and mid to high level vocab, so I might start there. I'd suggest reading through the first 20 or so PTs and whenever you see a grammar structure or word that you are unfamiliar with, study up on it and put it on a flashcard. You need a much stronger base to start with before you dig into the LSAT.

[jared6180]

I need a 160 to get into a safety school, 168 for my reach school, and 172 for a dream school. However my goal is a 180, with a 180 I can get into my safety with a full scholarship, and a stipend, at my reach school I could get 75%-100% scholarship, and at my dream school at least I could get in and possibly a 25%.

Don't sell yourself short, if you need a 155 study for a 180.

[mattviphky]

well if you have a great GPA, like 3.7+, and you are a African American, you probably could get something decent with a 155. But either way, shoot higher.

[Duramax80]

I dont get why everyone is so dismal about employment prospects for lower ranked schools. I know attorneys that graduated from Tier 4 schools. They dont rake in 6 figures a year, dont drive BMWs or Mercedes, but theyre doing just fine, and both graduated after 2008. Also, none of them were in the top 10% of their class.

Its totally possible to make a comfortable living coming from a lower tier school. You wont make big law, but if you go to a regional school and want to practice nearby, go for it. Its totally possible. If you like the law, then follow your dream. If you just want to make money and see practicing law as your meal ticket, rob a bank or something. My stats are garbage (2.68/160) and I plan on going to a 3rd Tier school because I want to be an attorney and I wont settle for anything else. Besides, all the attorneys I have talked to always say the same thing, "Where you get your JD from only matters for your first job. Your next job depends on how good of an attorney you are."

Go to law school if you think its the right place for you. Youll have to bust your ass in school and make some sacrifices when you graduate, but dont be a bitch and suck at your job. When it comes time to move on, let your case record speak for you, not your alma matter.

[BlakcMajikc]

I dont get why everyone is so dismal about employment prospects for lower ranked schools. I know attorneys that graduated from Tier 4 schools. They dont rake in 6 figures a year, dont drive BMWs or Mercedes, but theyre doing just fine, and both graduated after 2008. Also, none of them were in the top 10% of their class.

Its totally possible to make a comfortable living coming from a lower tier school. You wont make big law, but if you go to a regional school and want to practice nearby, go for it. Its totally possible. If you like the law, then follow your dream. If you just want to make money and see practicing law as your meal ticket, rob a bank or something. My stats are garbage (2.68/160) and I plan on going to a 3rd Tier school because I want to be an attorney and I wont settle for anything else. Besides, all the attorneys I have talked to always say the same thing, "Where you get your JD from only matters for your first job. Your next job depends on how good of an attorney you are."

Go to law school if you think its the right place for you. Youll have to bust your ass in school and make some sacrifices when you graduate, but dont be a bitch and suck at your job. When it comes time to move on, let your case record speak for you, not your alma matter.

I just skimmed this. Don't go to law school if you will be in a load of debt without a job to pay it off.

If you are at a Tier 4 school on a free ride, well you don't have anything to lose (except opportunity costs).
If you are at HYS paying sticker, you'll be able to get a job to pay it off (or I hope).
Tier 4 + debt = disaster.

[Duramax80]

I dont get why everyone is so dismal about employment prospects for lower ranked schools. I know attorneys that graduated from Tier 4 schools. They dont rake in 6 figures a year, dont drive BMWs or Mercedes, but theyre doing just fine, and both graduated after 2008. Also, none of them were in the top 10% of their class.

Its totally possible to make a comfortable living coming from a lower tier school. You wont make big law, but if you go to a regional school and want to practice nearby, go for it. Its totally possible. If you like the law, then follow your dream. If you just want to make money and see practicing law as your meal ticket, rob a bank or something. My stats are garbage (2.68/160) and I plan on going to a 3rd Tier school because I want to be an attorney and I wont settle for anything else. Besides, all the attorneys I have talked to always say the same thing, "Where you get your JD from only matters for your first job. Your next job depends on how good of an attorney you are."

Go to law school if you think its the right place for you. Youll have to bust your ass in school and make some sacrifices when you graduate, but dont be a bitch and suck at your job. When it comes time to move on, let your case record speak for you, not your alma matter.

I just skimmed this. Don't go to law school if you will be in a load of debt without a job to pay it off.

If you are at a Tier 4 school on a free ride, well you don't have anything to lose (except opportunity costs).
If you are at HYS paying sticker, you'll be able to get a job to pay it off (or I hope).
Tier 4 + debt = disaster.

Not necessarily. Depending on how adept one is at their profession, paying off law school debt is not so impossible. The first few years might be intense, but if you get shit done right, your next job will be better. Im not saying its a great idea to go TTTT, but Im not saying its a disaster.

[ThreeRivers]

I'm not as much of a "T14 or BUST" as a lot of people here... but you have to be realistic with your goals

If you know 100% you want to work in a particular region and understand that you won't get big law, I can see justification of going to law schools such as Pitt, Temple, Oklahoma, Denver, etc..

I wouldn't ever really go any lower than that group though

I don't think there's every any reason to go to TTT or TTTT, but if OP has a good GPA, he / she might might get in a worthwhile school with a 155. Still, OP should definitely shoot for higher

[BlakcMajikc]

Regardless of the T14 mentality, the key is debt management. If you are entering a school with lower employment prospects, you have to aim for lower debt. I'll amend my previous post entering a Tier 4 + load of debt = disaster. I don't think that is even debatable with few exceptions (like parent being hiring partner, etc.). Now defining "load of debt", depends on your personal preferences, but I am sure there is a rule of thumb on the ratio of student loan debt to take on/years to pay it off.

[jared6180]

Regardless of the T14 mentality, the key is debt management. If you are entering a school with lower employment prospects, you have to aim for lower debt. I'll amend my previous post entering a Tier 4 + load of debt = disaster. I don't think that is even debatable with few exceptions (like parent being hiring partner, etc.). Now defining "load of debt", depends on your personal preferences, but I am sure there is a rule of thumb on the ratio of student loan debt to take on/years to pay it off.

more than $1000/mo payment is what I would define as a LOAD. So depending on how long you stretch it out that could be $100-130k.

[sunynp]

I dont get why everyone is so dismal about employment prospects for lower ranked schools. I know attorneys that graduated from Tier 4 schools. They dont rake in 6 figures a year, dont drive BMWs or Mercedes, but theyre doing just fine, and both graduated after 2008. Also, none of them were in the top 10% of their class.

Its totally possible to make a comfortable living coming from a lower tier school. You wont make big law, but if you go to a regional school and want to practice nearby, go for it. Its totally possible. If you like the law, then follow your dream. If you just want to make money and see practicing law as your meal ticket, rob a bank or something. My stats are garbage (2.68/160) and I plan on going to a 3rd Tier school because I want to be an attorney and I wont settle for anything else. Besides, all the attorneys I have talked to always say the same thing, "Where you get your JD from only matters for your first job. Your next job depends on how good of an attorney you are."

Go to law school if you think its the right place for you. Youll have to bust your ass in school and make some sacrifices when you graduate, but dont be a bitch and suck at your job. When it comes time to move on, let your case record speak for you, not your alma matter.

It doesn't matter where you go to school if you DON'T get a job! You are assuming that you will get a job at all, which really is extremely unlikely from a 3rd or 4th tier school. The best schools give you the best shot at getting a job - period. If you don't get a first job, there won't be a next job.

Debt load is a huge aspect of this, of course, because without a job, how are you going to pay your loans? The lower tiers schools aren't cheaper, and they set their graduates up with no future employment.

[delusional]

I dont get why everyone is so dismal about employment prospects for lower ranked schools. I know attorneys that graduated from Tier 4 schools. They dont rake in 6 figures a year, dont drive BMWs or Mercedes, but theyre doing just fine, and both graduated after 2008.

This is where you are going wrong. I know a TTTT grad who's a partner at a top firm. If you look at attorneys, you are by definition finding people who have jobs. You need to look at the whole class to see what the odds are.

[sunynp]

Regardless of the T14 mentality, the key is debt management. If you are entering a school with lower employment prospects, you have to aim for lower debt. I'll amend my previous post entering a Tier 4 + load of debt = disaster. I don't think that is even debatable with few exceptions (like parent being hiring partner, etc.). Now defining "load of debt", depends on your personal preferences, but I am sure there is a rule of thumb on the ratio of student loan debt to take on/years to pay it off.

more than $1000/mo payment is what I would define as a LOAD. So depending on how long you stretch it out that could be $100-130k.

How much income does a person need to make these payments and also live? I know people who have jobs and moved home with their parents because they can only make loan payments - they can't afford to rent and pay loans. And they have decent jobs for people from their schools. A lot of their classmates don't even have jobs at all.

Read the employment forum here, read the threads about what people wished they knew as a 1L, read some blogs, and then maybe you will understand the economic reality that motivates the strong preference for T14 schools.

[jared6180]

How much income does a person need to make these payments and also live? I know people who have jobs and moved home with their parents because they can only make loan payments - they can't afford to rent and pay loans. And they have decent jobs for people from their schools. A lot of their classmates don't even have jobs at all.

Read the employment forum here, read the threads about what people wished they knew as a 1L, read some blogs, and then maybe you will understand the economic reality that motivates the strong preference for T14 schools.

Depends on the market. I know here in Kansas I can attend a T75 school (KU) and the median salary after graduation is $61k. In Kansas that will actually make for a fairly good life to start with. KU Law is about $48k TOTAL (in-state) for three years...

Lets say you took out a loan for $50k at 7% and stretch out the payments over 20 years, you will make $388 payments...$75k is $582/mo, and $100k is $776/mo. You can live good with all those payments on $61k in the midwest.

Some will make more and some will make less.

[Curious1]

REALLY don't want to be a douche but this sounds like a flame...is a 128 even possible, even on cold diagnostic?

If you guessed on EVERY SINGLE question, you would end up with a raw score of 20, which is about a 128. Is that what you did because you have no idea how to tackle any of the questions? If so...then you law school might not be a good choice.

[givemea170]

I wouldn't go to any law school that typically accepts people with 155 LSATs. Employment prospects are too foul.

LSN is showing URM's getting into top 14's with 155 LSAT's, hell, I even saw someone with a 150 get into a top 14 with money so this isn't really accurate if this individual is a URM.

[Duramax80]

All Im saying is that Ive seen people get good jobs after graduating from TTTT schools. Its not the best idea, but its certainly possible, and definitely not a 100% lost cause. The majority of attorneys I know around here did not graduate from T50 schools, and I live in a pretty "schnazzy" part of town. To give you an idea, there is a TV show about our "housewives" around here and I personally know a "character" on that show, and no, its not one of my parents. Even though my tuition is paid for, I still see a JD from a TTTT school as sufficient to starting a solid legal career. Its not going to be like wiping your ass with silk, but if you are willing to make some sacrifices, it can be done. Personally, I want to practice law because I like it, and lets be honest, I dont expect to make much money. I know I will never be "rich," but I'll be doing what makes me happy, and thats good enough for me. Trust me, money isnt everything. I do partially agree with the posts on here, but then again, I partially disagree as well. I hope I have clarified my point, in a sort of tangential and ambiguous fashion.

Besides, I know that when I graduate law school and look for work, I'll sit in an interview and explain how much of a legal baller I am, how many times Ive seen 12 Angry Men, and how T14 grads are all nerds with no social skills or girlfriends. Who wants some pretentious T14 with a sweater-vest, argyle socks, and a massive sense of entitlement at their office Christmas parties, hitting on all the fat chicks? Who cares if they'll be driving a new Mercedes CL 600 AMG a year after they graduate? I'll run into them with my beige '92 Honda Civic with plastic spinning-hubcaps. When their fuel lines automatically shut off (cause theyre so safe, whoop-de-friggin-doo), Ill be driving away in a cloud of exhaust and burned oil, leaving them only with the sound of a rattling, bolt-on, aftermarket fart-cannon exhaust tip, only worsened by an automatic 4 speed transmission that cant find 3rd gear. WHOS THE BITCH NOW?

But seriously, its up to the individual, haters gonna hate, fuck the naysayers... im running out of cliches.

[Curious1]

Besides, I know that when I graduate law school and look for work, I'll sit in an interview and explain how much of a legal baller I am, how many times Ive seen 12 Angry Men, and how T14 grads are all nerds with no social skills or girlfriends. Who wants some pretentious T14 with a sweater-vest, argyle socks, and a massive sense of entitlement at their office Christmas parties, hitting on all the fat chicks? Who cares if they'll be driving a new Mercedes CL 600 AMG a year after they graduate? I'll run into them with my beige '92 Honda Civic with plastic spinning-hubcaps. When their fuel lines automatically shut off (cause theyre so safe, whoop-de-friggin-doo), Ill be driving away in a cloud of exhaust and burned oil, leaving them only with the sound of a rattling, bolt-on, aftermarket fart-cannon exhaust tip, only worsened by an automatic 4 speed transmission that cant find 3rd gear. WHOS THE BITCH NOW?

[sunynp]

Hey if your parents are paying your tuition, it doesn't matter if you never find a job as a lawyer- so good luck.

Not having any debt puts you in a different category than most of the posters applying to lower tier - they also are arguing strongly about their great chances of success as long as they work hard and network.

[psm11]

All Im saying is that Ive seen people get good jobs after graduating from TTTT schools. Its not the best idea, but its certainly possible, and definitely not a 100% lost cause. The majority of attorneys I know around here did not graduate from T50 schools, and I live in a pretty "schnazzy" part of town. To give you an idea, there is a TV show about our "housewives" around here and I personally know a "character" on that show, and no, its not one of my parents. Even though my tuition is paid for, I still see a JD from a TTTT school as sufficient to starting a solid legal career. Its not going to be like wiping your ass with silk, but if you are willing to make some sacrifices, it can be done. Personally, I want to practice law because I like it, and lets be honest, I dont expect to make much money. I know I will never be "rich," but I'll be doing what makes me happy, and thats good enough for me. Trust me, money isnt everything. I do partially agree with the posts on here, but then again, I partially disagree as well. I hope I have clarified my point, in a sort of tangential and ambiguous fashion.

Besides, I know that when I graduate law school and look for work, I'll sit in an interview and explain how much of a legal baller I am, how many times Ive seen 12 Angry Men, and how T14 grads are all nerds with no social skills or girlfriends. Who wants some pretentious T14 with a sweater-vest, argyle socks, and a massive sense of entitlement at their office Christmas parties, hitting on all the fat chicks? Who cares if they'll be driving a new Mercedes CL 600 AMG a year after they graduate? I'll run into them with my beige '92 Honda Civic with plastic spinning-hubcaps. When their fuel lines automatically shut off (cause theyre so safe, whoop-de-friggin-doo), Ill be driving away in a cloud of exhaust and burned oil, leaving them only with the sound of a rattling, bolt-on, aftermarket fart-cannon exhaust tip, only worsened by an automatic 4 speed transmission that cant find 3rd gear. WHOS THE BITCH NOW?

But seriously, its up to the individual, haters gonna hate, fuck the naysayers... im running out of cliches.

haha second paragraph is hilarious. i agree with you and know many T4 grads, some recent and some from many years ago, that are doing fine. my uncle was a t4 grad and started his own practice and ended up making way more money than most t14 grades will ever make. according to him it all comes down to generating business. whether you're at big law or shitlaw, if you can't generate the business your not gonna succeed or have any type of career.