LSAT is making me give up on my dreams Forum

[PrinceKasra]

I have a high 3.6gpa from UC Irvine and I got a 148 on my first lsat test even though my practice scores were in the mid 150s. I finished college recenlty and I have been trying to get back on the lsat and I just cannot get the scores I was getting before. I want at least a 160 and I feel like I have no hope. I have never felt this way about life before. I have fought through anything that was a challenge. I helped my friends through college classes. I even did their homeworks at times for my own practice. I am very smart and I know I can succeed in law school but I refuse to go into a law school that is unknown. I wish there was some way to better my score to the 160 range. If anyone could help me I would do anything. For the first time in my life I am begging for help because I am lsat retarded.

[jln04a]

I cannot take you seriously.

But what else did you do besides practice tests? How much time did you spend studying, and how did you spend that time? What sections gave you the most trouble? Why?

Start there.

[nelaw2010]

Study for the LSAT everyday for 1 year. Take at least 20 PT's, then you'll have a better idea of how you're doing.

[Shammis]

Being school smart has nothing to do with it. How long have you been studying? Taken a course? Btw...Im a UCI grad also (dont make us look bad) nut up or shut up and crack open a damn book. I Started in your range also. I studied for over half of a year. Took a course and self studied. Weekends? yeah I was PTing. Weekdays? Yeah I was PTing, drilling, working my ass off because this test is literally everything if you want to pursue the law. If you dont want to put in the time, hey man that's fine, maybe the law isn't for you. The law (and law school) is all about dedication. If you let a little set back get in your way or are overwhelmed by a daunting task, reevaluate. I'm not trying to be mean at all, just trying to give you some good advice. I ended up with a 163...the lower end of my PT range, but that was over a 10 point increase from where I started...

Also, how long have you been reading these forums? There is a ton of advice on how to do well on the LSAT...study schedules, advice on courses, books, etc. If you got a 3.6 from UCI I know you are smart enough to do well on the test, but do you have the drive to do what it takes? PM me if you want more advice because without knowing more about your situation I'm basing all of this on assumptions (really I'm not joking), but for now read the study schedules ppl have posted. Drill all the time. Learn the test. Good luck mate, but don't fool yourself into thinking you want this if you really don't.

[PrinceKasra]

I will not give up but I am just very frustrated with myself. I continuously take practice tests and score right on the 150 mark if not less. I have not taken four section tests at one time period 20 times but I have done 1/3 of the arguments ever made for the lsat. I was taking about 2 argument sections in a day and that improved my argument score but then I had to order more and by the time they came my improvement was lost. I went back to getting 12 right instead of 18. I have taken a UCLA prep course which at the beginning of the class i scored a 150 and then pushed to a 154 and then the day of the test got a 148 so the class did nothing for me. I am planning to take another class but the problem is that I can take 2 more tests which is this october and december but if I cannot score in the 160s my hopes for the top law schools is gone and I do not know if taking 2 years off from school is such a good idea compared to the 1 year off I am on right now. I have read through all the powerscore logical reasoning book and games. It has not changed my score either. In fact it made me slower and do worse having to remember their ways to solving everything. My strongest section is games but even that fluctuates. I average 16-18 on games but that is if the lsat does not give a grouping game. My reading comprehension is slow not because of my reading speed but because I have to go back to the passage to remember a certain detail. I know this takes a lot of dedication but I must have bad habits of approaching problems. I should learn how to attack the problems. So far no book or practice has really given me the results I want. I can honestly work hard and study all day if I have to. I am just worried since there are about 63 lsat tests and if I keep taking one every other day or every few days I will run out of tests and probably not learn a better way to solve problems causing me to not get anywhere before test day. I have been studying for 3 months not necessarily every day but I would say I review concepts throughout the week and take practice sections about 3-4 times in the week.

[PrinceKasra]

The 3 months of studying are for this year. I did study last year after I took the course in August and I took the October test which I did poorly on. Then I started studying again in mid December and up to January where I stopped to finish college and resumed again in March. Maybe that has slowed me down.

[Sloth Hero]

I have taken a UCLA prep course which at the beginning of the class i scored a 150 and then pushed to a 154 and then the day of the test got a 148 so the class did nothing for me.

Maybe analytical reasoning isn't your strong suit.

[Luthecis]

I have not taken four section tests at one time period 20 times but I have done 1/3 of the arguments ever made for the lsat.

While you should acquaint yourself in the beginning by taking your first several PTs untimed to get used to the format, i've learned from others on this forum that timing is absolutely crucial. Doing the four sections separately can do nothing beneficial for you: you need to get used to the fatigue and build up the stamina you need for LSAT. It is a mentally draining test intended to weed out the weak.

I am just worried since there are about 63 lsat tests and if I keep taking one every other day or every few days I will run out of tests and probably not learn a better way to solve problems causing me to not get anywhere before test day.

You should be taking a PT no smaller than a 3-day interval. Assuming that you do have 63 PTs in your possession, this will last you for a good 189 days- well before the october LSAT date. Trust me, you will not run out of PTs if you do it right.

My strongest section is games but even that fluctuates. I average 16-18 on games but that is if the lsat does not give a grouping game.

Doesn't this sound like you should work on drilling grouping games then? With practice, you WILL see an improvement in your score.

Here's some inspiration for you: I'm an immigrant that came from HK about 8 years ago, and I didn't know any english when I got here. My cold diagnostic, which I took back in June, was a 149. Naturally, I was not pleased; so I buckled up, lurked around the TLS forum, found pithypike's guide, and did a PT every 3 days while doing 6 games, 40 LR questions and a RC passage everyday (while reading the LR bible, because LR is my weakness), my score went up from my cold 149 to 158, then recently, a 164. If I can do it, you can certainly improve too.

It is certainly not a easy feat- but definitely doable.
With the right methods, a 160+ on the LSAT is not impossible.

If you're taking the October LSAT, I suggest you do the following:
1- Make a schedule, like the one pithypike suggested
2- Take a PT every 3 days, review the questions that you answered incorrectly thoroughly- not just why the correct answer is correct, but also why the incorrect answers are incorrect- and make sure you take ALL 4 sections at once (some people like sneaking in a 5th one to simulate the experimental section)
2.5- If you're really dedicated, review the questions that you answered correctly
3- Drill, drill, and drill. Drill those grouping games that you claimed to have difficulty over, and drill each of the LR types listed by the PS bible. Drilling is crucial. You must discover your weaknesses and attack them.
4- Oh, and make sure you try to get -0 on games.

[JustE]

Have you tried the Powerscore Bibles? Most of us swear by them.

[suspicious android]

Stop taking new tests, you're not getting anything out of them if your scored aren't improving. Review old sections, go over them untimed until you have 90% accuracy or better. Right now you're getting so many wrong, you're not really understanding the material. Doing timed sections for you is just practicing making mistakes at a faster rate.

[PrinceKasra]

I have about 22 tests in my hands because I used one 10 test packet just for the logical reasoning section which is what I have put the most time in. That is yet my weakest section regardless of the fact that I have spent the most time practicing it. I will put in more effort but first I need to learn better techniques on doing the questions since the powerscore bible books have not helped me and neither has my prep course.

[alangsto]

I had a disappointment this June when I took mine and am retaking it in Oct. The only advice I can give you is stick to the basics. The methodologies in the PS Bibles work, go back to them & keep working. If you really aren't feeling confident closer to test time then push the date back for when you take the LSAT, even if you have to wait a year. Look into a tutor, if you get a good one they can help you. Most of all don't let negativity set you back, if you already think its hopeless then it probably is. Best of luck.

[Joeshan520]

No one said the LSAT, law school and life especially would be easy. I graduated with honors from a reputable school as a philosophy major, was admitted to a top Master's program, am taking a prep course for the second time around and still struggle with the LSAT. I don't give up because I want a T10 school more then anything in the world. It seems like you want the same. Your best bet is to get off the internet, develop a strategic study plan and review every single problem you get wrong while practicing. It's not necessarily WHAT you got wrong on every exam that is most important, but WHY you got it wrong. It is also far more effective to spend a few months or even a year doing untimed sections and reviewing everything you get wrong then to continually do practice tests that have yielded no results. If you want to attend a top law school bad enough you are going to have to realize that there is someone out there working that much harder then you to take that spot. Man up, hone your skills and beat this test.

[thecilent]

I will not give up but I am just very frustrated with myself. I continuously take practice tests and score right on the 150 mark if not less. I have not taken four section tests at one time period 20 times but I have done 1/3 of the arguments ever made for the lsat. I was taking about 2 argument sections in a day and that improved my argument score but then I had to order more and by the time they came my improvement was lost. I went back to getting 12 right instead of 18. I have taken a UCLA prep course which at the beginning of the class i scored a 150 and then pushed to a 154 and then the day of the test got a 148 so the class did nothing for me. I am planning to take another class but the problem is that I can take 2 more tests which is this october and december but if I cannot score in the 160s my hopes for the top law schools is gone and I do not know if taking 2 years off from school is such a good idea compared to the 1 year off I am on right now. I have read through all the powerscore logical reasoning book and games. It has not changed my score either. In fact it made me slower and do worse having to remember their ways to solving everything. My strongest section is games but even that fluctuates. I average 16-18 on games but that is if the lsat does not give a grouping game. My reading comprehension is slow not because of my reading speed but because I have to go back to the passage to remember a certain detail. I know this takes a lot of dedication but I must have bad habits of approaching problems. I should learn how to attack the problems. So far no book or practice has really given me the results I want. I can honestly work hard and study all day if I have to. I am just worried since there are about 63 lsat tests and if I keep taking one every other day or every few days I will run out of tests and probably not learn a better way to solve problems causing me to not get anywhere before test day. I have been studying for 3 months not necessarily every day but I would say I review concepts throughout the week and take practice sections about 3-4 times in the week.

lmao. not ONE comma. Not even in any of your posts. wtf is wrong with you?

you are not smart enough to go to a good law school. that is also why you are not scoring well on the lsat

edit: i feel bad for being so mean, but if you can't study and eventually score better than a 150 on the lsat, it's tough to recommend law school. take practice tests and review every question

[kazu]

Stop taking new tests, you're not getting anything out of them if your scored aren't improving. Review old sections, go over them untimed until you have 90% accuracy or better. Right now you're getting so many wrong, you're not really understanding the material. Doing timed sections for you is just practicing making mistakes at a faster rate.

This.

Also, buy the Powerscore Bibles for LR and Games.

[PrinceKasra]

Haha ya it was late night I was writing this post so I left out punctuations. And I am very smart because UC Irvine was easy for me. I would study hard the day before and remember everything for tests. If it was not for my freshman year I would have a 3.9 gpa but unfortunately I got pneumonia and I was a dumb 18 year old for not taking care of myself and following other loser freshman's advice in that a B is good lol. But intelligence is not what determines the lsat. The test is purposely made with limited time to give people who can think fast and efficiently under time an advantage to separate them from others for schools. I just think the lsat is a very poor indicator of success. Why? Because my SAT score was horrible as well and I consider myself lucky to get into UC Irvine. I had an amazing gpa in high school and I still could not get over 1900 on the SAT, but did I do poorly in college? haha if anything I made all those stereotypes about Indians and Asians being geniuses false. All my friends regardless of race were asking me for answers. Some even begging me to take a test for them. So I believe standardized tests are the most ridiculous things made. The truth is that there are too many people applying for schools and there needs to be some way to separate people into schools and that is the best way since its guaranteed to create a bell curve on performance. Anyways I am working on other lsat books in the bookstores like barnes and nobles hoping to find methods that work with my mentality.

[PDaddy]

The definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

If your practice scores never get above 155, and you want a score above 160, you shouldn't take the real test. The typical LSAT taker scores at least 5 points below his practice average. Hence, you need to consistently score above 165 in practice to feel secure that you will reach your target minimum of 160.

[locthebloke]

Haha ya it was late night I was writing this post so I left out punctuations. And I am very smart because UC Irvine was easy for me. I would study hard the day before and remember everything for tests. If it was not for my freshman year I would have a 3.9 gpa but unfortunately I got pneumonia and I was a dumb 18 year old for not taking care of myself and following other loser freshman's advice in that a B is good lol. But intelligence is not what determines the lsat. The test is purposely made with limited time to give people who can think fast and efficiently under time an advantage to separate them from others for schools. I just think the lsat is a very poor indicator of success. Why? Because my SAT score was horrible as well and I consider myself lucky to get into UC Irvine. I had an amazing gpa in high school and I still could not get over 1900 on the SAT, but did I do poorly in college? haha if anything I made all those stereotypes about Indians and Asians being geniuses false. All my friends regardless of race were asking me for answers. Some even begging me to take a test for them. So I believe standardized tests are the most ridiculous things made. The truth is that there are too many people applying for schools and there needs to be some way to separate people into schools and that is the best way since its guaranteed to create a bell curve on performance. Anyways I am working on other lsat books in the bookstores like barnes and nobles hoping to find methods that work with my mentality.

You need to study for this test more and talk yourself up less. Having an "amazing" GPA in high school is like being the tallest kid in 3rd grade. Anyone with half a head on their shoulders who gives decent effort should pull at least a 3.8 GPA in high school. And really, anyone who is not in a math/science/engineering/tech kind of Major (see: most people who take the LSAT) should be able to get at *least* a 3.6 in college with earnest effort. And really, for better or worse that's why the LSAT is important. Because a good college GPA isn't impressive. A good LSAT score is.

The LSAT is not really a poor indicator of success. While it's true that someone who gets a mediocre score can certainly be successful in law school, even in many they couldn't get into because of said score, those who get great scores, you can count on to be successful. As the official description of the test gets into, the LSAT measures mental skills that are essential for success in law school--comprehending complex texts under duress, problem solving, making inferences, etc.

I have read through all the powerscore logical reasoning book and games. It has not changed my score either. In fact it made me slower and do worse having to remember their ways to solving everything.

If you honestly worked through (not just read) the Power Score Bibles and did not find them to be of help (especially the LG Bible) then I really don't know what to tell you. They are very good and very helpful and you'd be hard pressed to find anyone on here who disagrees. Perhaps law school isn't for you. (Understand that the LSAT truly does challenge the kind of thinking that lawyers have to do). I hope you want to go to law school for the right reasons. Part of the problem you alluded to about the inundated law school application process is the tons of people who decide to go the law school route for the wrong ones.


I'm sorry to write a book. It's just that I've really started to study very seriously every day and I'm frustrated and overwhelmed very often by this process as many others are, but I'm not sitting here talking myself up and making excuses. It's annoying.

[jln04a]

Finally a comma.

1) I don't think time is an excuse for a complete lack of punctuation. Seriously, it take how long to hit the "," key? There isn't even a shift button required. Personally, I attempt punctuate correctly at all hours, even while intoxicated (like now) because valid or not, people make assumptions about intelligence based on grammar.

2) Maybe you're smart, though that is a vague term, and I don't know you, so I cannot make any judgments beyond what you write here. The LSAT doesn't measure "book smarts" but the ability to reason logically. That can be learned, but not in the way that facts are often memorized for certain college classes.

3) Something isn't working for you. Right now, you're spending most of your time convincing people that you're smart. You are correct in this, bell curves are meant to segment people. That means that if someone scores in the 90th percentile, someone else will score in the 10th. You can say that standardized tests are ridiculous, but on some level, they matter. While you can be successful in college, logic may not be your strength. I would spend time reviewing why you missed the questions you missed to see where you went wrong.

I know this sounds harsh but honestly, a T10 (or T50) school might not be realistic. You have to do the best you can and accept that. Not everyone can get into a T10, even if he or she could potentially do well there. You need to set realistic expectations. What do you want out of law school? Is it the law degree/career? Or is it Big Law? What schools will help you meet your goals? If you have studied as much as you can, at some point you have to accept your scores.

[sandwiches5000]

http://lsatblog.blogspot.com

They have solid info on study schedules. Dissect your studying approach by focusing on individual question types. Outline a strategic plan over the course of at least three months. It's the only real way to improve.

I was blindly just doing PTs and hanging out. Granted, I started a little bit higher than you (upper 150s) but I ended up PTing in the upper 170s. I'm not sure of what my real score is now, still waiting on that.

Anyway, all I'm saying is don't give up! There are effective study plans out there, you just have to find one and own it. I chose a 5 month study plan and it worked for me because I could actually see my friends and I work full-time. I studied starting at around 3-4 hours per day, 5 days a week and upped it to about 5 hours a day in the final couple of months.

[Veyron]

LSAT is making me give up on my dreams

And, with those scores (and writing skills), it should.

[bhan87]

Being school smart has nothing to do with it. How long have you been studying? Taken a course? Btw...Im a UCI grad also (dont make us look bad) nut up or shut up and crack open a damn book. I Started in your range also. I studied for over half of a year. Took a course and self studied. Weekends? yeah I was PTing. Weekdays? Yeah I was PTing, drilling, working my ass off because this test is literally everything if you want to pursue the law. If you dont want to put in the time, hey man that's fine, maybe the law isn't for you. The law (and law school) is all about dedication. If you let a little set back get in your way or are overwhelmed by a daunting task, reevaluate. I'm not trying to be mean at all, just trying to give you some good advice. I ended up with a 163...the lower end of my PT range, but that was over a 10 point increase from where I started...

Also, how long have you been reading these forums? There is a ton of advice on how to do well on the LSAT...study schedules, advice on courses, books, etc. If you got a 3.6 from UCI I know you are smart enough to do well on the test, but do you have the drive to do what it takes? PM me if you want more advice because without knowing more about your situation I'm basing all of this on assumptions (really I'm not joking), but for now read the study schedules ppl have posted. Drill all the time. Learn the test. Good luck mate, but don't fool yourself into thinking you want this if you really don't.

+1 and +1. Though the LSAT is not the greatest indicator of law schools success, to some extent it tests many fundamental skills you'll need to succeed in law school, like sound reasoning skills and reading comprehension.

How did you approach your reviews after taking PTs? Did you carefully read over EVERY question, including the ones that you got right? Did you spend more time reviewing the test than taking it? Did you write sentence explanations explaining why every answer choice is definitively right or wrong BEFORE consulting an explanation guide? (This is critical btw) Did you cross-check your sentence explanations with other sources? This is the type of dedication you'll need to get a top-level score on the LSAT.

[Audio Technica Guy]

if you're getting this frustrated with the LSAT and, even worse, relatively nice posters on an internet message board, how the F*** are you going to handle a partner screaming his lungs out at you and threatening to drown your mother in your children's blood if you don't get this 136 page agreement fully checked over in the next 6 hours?

[bhan87]

Haha ya it was late night I was writing this post so I left out punctuations. And I am very smart because UC Irvine was easy for me. I would study hard the day before and remember everything for tests. (Smarts are not everything. This type of mentality will kill you in law school, and if you don't have the drive needed to raise your score, I doubt you'll magically find it while you're a 1L) If it was not for my freshman year I would have a 3.9 gpa but unfortunately I got pneumonia and I was a dumb 18 year old for not taking care of myself and following other loser freshman's advice in that a B is good lol. But intelligence is not what determines the lsat. The test is purposely made with limited time to give people who can think fast and efficiently under time an advantage to separate them from others for schools. I just think the lsat is a very poor indicator of success. (Welcome to the world of law. Being able to think fast and efficiently is the WHOLE POINT.) Why? Because my SAT score was horrible as well and I consider myself lucky to get into UC Irvine. I had an amazing gpa in high school and I still could not get over 1900 on the SAT (I couldn't either, but that didn't stop me from getting a 172), but did I do poorly in college? haha if anything I made all those stereotypes about Indians and Asians being geniuses false. All my friends regardless of race were asking me for answers. Some even begging me to take a test for them. So I believe standardized tests are the most ridiculous things made. The truth is that there are too many people applying for schools and there needs to be some way to separate people into schools and that is the best way since its guaranteed to create a bell curve on performance. Anyways I am working on other lsat books in the bookstores like barnes and nobles hoping to find methods that work with my mentality.

[Audio Technica Guy]

(Welcome to the world of law. Being able to think fast and efficiently is the WHOLE POINT.)

Yeah, lol if this guy thinks that the LSAT is the last time in the law he'd feel like the system was designed to favor those who can think really fast and efficiently under intense pressure.

You realize that when you're a lawyer, you bill your time out at like $400 per hour, as a first year. That means that you GD better think really fast, yet flawlessly, or your client is going to be awfully pissed off that it took you 10 hours to do something that most of your competitors can do in 6. People don't take kindly to thousands of dollars of their money being wasted because you don't like thinking under intense time pressure.