Formal Logic question inquiry Forum

[kovacs]

Hi everyone, I'm having some trouble with understanding the correct answer. Could you please let me know what you think the answer is and why? I will reveal the answer shortly!_______________________________________________________________

At the camp pool a number of youngsters are all vying to get into the water. The camp counselors know that certain kids cannot be in the pool at the same time if any semblance of order is to be maintained The youngsters Anna, Ben Chris, dna, Evan, Frank, and Garry all want to get into the pool, but whether or not they are admitted is determined by the following:

Anna gets into teh pool only if Chris gets into the pool.
If Ben gets into the pool, tehn Chris also gets into the pool.
Anna gets into the pool if Dana gets in.
Garry gets into the pool only if Chris and Evan get into the pool.
Ben gets into the pool if Garry gets into the pool.
If Garry is out of teh pool, then dana is out of the pool.

QUESTION: If exactly two children are out of the pool, then who must be out of the pool?
(A) Anna
(B) Ben
(C) Chris
(D) Dana
(E) Evan

[Modus Ponens]

D

EDIT: Because both Dana and Frank must be out of the pool. If any other person is out of the pool, then the rules would make more than two people out of the pool (question stem says exactly two are out).

[kovacs]

D

EDIT: Because both Dana and Frank must be out of the pool. If any other person is out of the pool, then the rules would make more than two people out of the pool (question stem says exactly two are out).

So, if (A) Anna is out, then obviously Dana is out. But who says Frank has to be out? Frank can be in. This is ambiguous, and leaves us with either 2 people out or 3 people out.

(D) also has this ambiguity, as Dana can be out while Frank is in, leaving us with only one person out. Though, of course, if Frank is out, then two people in total are out.

AM I MISSING SOMETHING HERE???

[gggrra]

I agree with (D).

If Dana is in, then A,C,G,B,E must be in, leaving F as the only possible person that out.

What's the correct answer and where did you get this questions? I'm 99% sure this is not from a PT...

[Jeffort]

Is this from a real LSAT? The game doesn't sound familiar but does sound like a fake one you would find in a crappy LSAT prep book. If that's the case, that may be part of the problem OP is having with it.

[kovacs]

McGraw Hill's Conquering the LSAT Logic Games

The correct answer is (D).

But, could you please answer why it is not (A)?

The 3rd post addresses my questions and concerns for (D) and (A). Thanks!

[kovacs]

Is this from a real LSAT? The game doesn't sound familiar but does sound like a fake one you would find in a crappy LSAT prep book. If that's the case, that may be part of the problem OP is having with it.

So, the answer COULD BE (A) Anna??

[gggrra]

it's not (A) because I think you can have DF out, and ABCEG in, so obviously A doesn't have to be out of the pool. Whereas, Dana has to be out because if she is in, there can be at most 1 person (F) out.

My advice is to ditch that book and practice with some real LSAT LG...

[kovacs]

it's not (A) because I think you can have DF out, and ABCEG in, so obviously A doesn't have to be out of the pool.

My advice is to ditch that book and practice with some real LSAT LG...

Yeah, I'm going to ditch the book and stick with KAPLAN. BUT, if F is in the pool, then Anna and Dana can be out while everyone else is in, correct? Thus, (A) is correct as well.

EDIT: I hate this book.

[ExpectLess]

D

EDIT: Because both Dana and Frank must be out of the pool. If any other person is out of the pool, then the rules would make more than two people out of the pool (question stem says exactly two are out).

So, if (A) Anna is out, then obviously Dana is out. But who says Frank has to be out? Frank can be in. This is ambiguous, and leaves us with either 2 people out or 3 people out.

(D) also has this ambiguity, as Dana can be out while Frank is in, leaving us with only one person out. Though, of course, if Frank is out, then two people in total are out.

AM I MISSING SOMETHING HERE???

If exactly two are out, then CBE must be in, D must be out, and AFG can go either.

Once you realize D has to be out, (because GACEB would all have to be in, which wouldn't work if there were five), that makes rules 3 and 6 irrelevant. Now with the out group as D __, rule one dictates that C could no longer be out, as there would be no room for A in the out group with it. So C must be in. That makes rule 2 irrelevant. Rule four lets us know that neither C nor E could be out, as there would be no room for G in the out spot, so E must also be in. Finally, rule 5 lets us know that B couldn't be out, as there would be no room for G. AFG don't have further restrictions.

But yes, you should practice real games. Which means you probably shouldn't be looking at Kaplan books, either.

Edit: And no, A isn't right because it doesn't have to--although it could--be out.

[KevinP]

it's not (A) because I think you can have DF out, and ABCEG in, so obviously A doesn't have to be out of the pool.

My advice is to ditch that book and practice with some real LSAT LG...

Yeah, I'm going to ditch the book and stick with KAPLAN. BUT, if F is in the pool, then Anna and Dana can be out while everyone else is in, correct? Thus, (A) is correct as well.

Bro, get Powerscore or Manhattan for LG which use real questions.

A is not correct because Anna could be out, while the question is who must be out. Could does not equal must.

[gggrra]

it's not (A) because I think you can have DF out, and ABCEG in, so obviously A doesn't have to be out of the pool.

My advice is to ditch that book and practice with some real LSAT LG...

Yeah, I'm going to ditch the book and stick with KAPLAN. BUT, if F is in the pool, then Anna and Dana can be out while everyone else is in, correct? Thus, (A) is correct as well.

EDIT: I hate this book.

The question asks who Must be out. The fact that you can come up with a hypothetical where A is in eliminates A. The reason why D is correct is because you can't make a hypothetical where D is in (go ahead I dare you), so D must be out.

Just go through the Powerscore Logic games bible.

[Jeffort]

McGraw Hill's Conquering the LSAT Logic Games

The correct answer is (D).

But, could you please answer why it is not (A)?

The 3rd post addresses my questions and concerns for (D) and (A). Thanks!

That book is filled with fake LG's written by the author(s) of the book, meaning that the included games are not authentic LSAT materials. Stop using it for LG practice. There are plenty of authentic previously administered LG's available. 66 available tests = 264 real LG's to study and practice with.

Non LSAC written 'simulated LSAT games' are bad to practice with since they are not the same and don't follow the common patterns and structures that official LSAT questions do. If you practice with a bunch of fake ones you will not get good at recognizing the common patterns and structures real LSAT games are constructed around. If you do a bunch of real games and then do a bunch of those fake ones, at a minimum you should notice that the fake ones 'just don't feel the same, they don't have the same rhythm and flow', and consequently they will not help build up your 'LSAT instincts'.

[kovacs]

Edit: And no, A isn't right because it doesn't have to--although it could--be out.[/quote]

OHHHHHH I get it now. At the end, we're left with choices (A) and (D). Anna is in one, and out in another, while Dana is out in both; so, we know by default that (D) Dana MUST BE OUT in either case. Therefore, DANA or (D) is the correct answer. THAT MAKES SENSE, but it took some mental gymnastics. I'm still going to use a different book. THANKS EVERYONE!

[kovacs]

OK, I also have the Princeton Review book and the Kaplan book, both of which are from 2011. Do they both use genuine logic games, as well as the other sections of the LSAT exams? Furthermore, I tried looking online for free REAL LSAT exams, but couldn't find any. Would someone please let me know where I can find these 66 real LSAT exams online? If not online, then which book? I know there's the 10 real exams books, but is that all?

EDIT: Oh and I do notice that the June 2007 LSAT is available on the LSAC website. AND, I take it that the LSAC book, which I bought, also has REAL exams?

[Killingly]

If we could find them online for free, we'd all be happy campers. Unfortunately, you have to buy the PTs. Look on Amazon.

Edit: And, LSAC owns the rights to the tests. Any book that uses real questions/includes real exams had to pay LSAC for the right to do so. A book will advertise if it includes real test and/or questions.

[KevinP]

OK, I also have the Princeton Review book and the Kaplan book, both of which are from 2011. Do they both use genuine logic games, as well as the other sections of the LSAT exams? Furthermore, I tried looking online for free REAL LSAT exams, but couldn't find any. Would someone please let me know where I can find these 66 real LSAT exams online? If not online, then which book? I know there's the 10 real exams books, but is that all?

Ditch Princeton/Kaplan and get Powerscore.
Besides the June 2007 test offered by LSAC, there's no legal way to get the preptests for free.
If you want to them in PDF format, Cambridge LSAT sells them.
http://www.cambridgelsat.com/

If you want hard copies of the tests, I'd recommend Amazon. You could also buy directly from LSAC but they tend to be slower at shipping the materials.

EDIT: Oh and I do notice that the June 2007 LSAT is available on the LSAC website. AND, I take it that the LSAC book, which I bought, also has REAL exams?

If you bought them directly from LSAC, then yes.

[kovacs]

OK, I also have the Princeton Review book and the Kaplan book, both of which are from 2011. Do they both use genuine logic games, as well as the other sections of the LSAT exams? Furthermore, I tried looking online for free REAL LSAT exams, but couldn't find any. Would someone please let me know where I can find these 66 real LSAT exams online? If not online, then which book? I know there's the 10 real exams books, but is that all?

Ditch Princeton/Kaplan and get Powerscore.
Besides the June 2007 test offered by LSAC, there's no legal way to get the preptests for free.
If you want to them in PDF format, Cambridge LSAT sells them.
http://www.cambridgelsat.com/

If you want hard copies of the tests, I'd recommend Amazon. You could also buy directly from LSAC but they tend to be slower at shipping the materials.

EDIT: Oh and I do notice that the June 2007 LSAT is available on the LSAC website. AND, I take it that the LSAC book, which I bought, also has REAL exams?

If you bought them directly from LSAC, then yes.

One hour of my lawyer fees should cover more than the entirety of the LSAT prep books' cost I am ditching. That is, if I can get a 170+ on my LSATs from my studies, get into a good law school, pass the bar exam, and get hired as an attorney.

[kovacs]

Just so it's clear, I should do away with the following LSAT prep books:

Exam Prep
Barron's
Princeton Review
Pass Key
LSAT for Dummies

I should work with:

LSAC books
PowerScore

[KevinP]

Just so it's clear, I should do away with the following LSAT prep books:

Exam Prep
Barron's
Princeton Review
Pass Key
LSAT for Dummies

I should work with:

LSAC books
PowerScore

Yes that should be fine, I've also heard good things about Manhattan but I can't vouch for them personally since I only ordered them yesterday and I am still waiting for them to get here.

You might also want to check out the following link for awesome starter advice.
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =6&t=41657

[Ikki]

Ditch that book, the stem is pretty shitty. You could have all kids in the pool at the same time, there's no rule that keeps the pool from having 7 kids at a time. Unless, when the stem claimed that "The camp counselors know that certain kids cannot be in the pool at the same time if any semblance of order is to be maintained", it meant to say only a maximum of 6 kids could be in the pool at the same time. That game is kinda ambiguous.

[Jeffort]

Just so it's clear, I should do away with the following LSAT prep books:

Exam Prep
Barron's
Princeton Review
Pass Key
LSAT for Dummies

I should work with:

LSAC books
PowerScore

Yes, do away with those you listed.

Work with real LSAT tests. You can get a bunch of them fairly cheap by purchasing the '10 books'. There are 4 of them, each contains 10 LSAT tests and they are around $25 each. The powerscore books are good for self study and so are the Manhattan LSAT prep books. You should also get a copy of the Official LSAT SuperPrep book published by LSAC. It has three otherwise unavailable tests in it as well as full very thorough explanations (written by the test writers themselves!) for the questions in the 3 tests.

[kovacs]

SO, before I spend another small fortune and to be absolutely clear... the PowerScore book series has actual previous LSAT exams in them?? Or are they recommended because of the guide/instructions?

[gggrra]

SO, before I spend another small fortune and to be absolutely clear... the PowerScore book series has actual previous LSAT exams in them?? Or are they recommended because of the guide/instructions?

Powerscore provides a guide. For real tests you should look into "10 actual lsats", "10 more actual lsats", "the next 10 actual lsats", "10 new actual lsats", & "superprep".

[Jeffort]

SO, before I spend another small fortune and to be absolutely clear... the PowerScore book series has actual previous LSAT exams in them?? Or are they recommended because of the guide/instructions?

Powerscore offers many different LSAT prep books, some of which (the bibles) are the study guides/instructions about the test and how to go about it. Some of their other publications (the workbooks and type training books) are compilations of authentic LSAT questions organized by types within the PS classification system.

If you go with Powerscore books for study/prep guides, it is the bibles that you want as the foundation for self study. At least the LG and LR bibles, the RC bible hasn't received many positive reviews from students. The bibles contain real LSAT questions to use as the basis for instruction, but not a huge amount of them. You have to get the bulk of available PrepTests to practice with separately.

Same thing if you go with the Manhattan LSAT prep books instead of the PS ones. They are study guides with some real LSAT questions in them to teach the concepts and techniques, but you have to get the bulk of LSAT practice tests from another book.

The most inexpensive way to get as many authentic LSAT tests for the lowest cost is to order the 4 LSAT '10 books' published by LSAC. Each of them contains 10 previously administered tests and they go for around $20-25 per book.

https://os.lsac.org/Release/Shop/Publications.aspx

You can order them from Amazon, sometimes they are cheaper there plus you can get free shipping or deals on shipping from amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss? ... at&x=0&y=0