LSAT as a Freshman in College (due to prep time availability Forum

[09042014]

Take it now so you realize you can't get more than 153 and avoid getting a useless prelawish degree.

I'll be a double major in Philosophy and Religious Studies. Pre-Law is lame.

These are exactly the sort of degree's Ray was talking about. Not much demand for them.

Ah, my mistake. I have seen a lot of criticism of the actual 'Pre-Law' major, which I was putting down. I already know there is little demand for my degrees.

Seems like a poor idea then huh?

[Kobe_Teeth]

2) You'll develop critical thinking, logical and reading skills over your time in college. I'm sure you think you're very intelligent now, but you're only going to get more prepared for the LSAT through years of college coursework.

You're going to be really surprised as to how much smarter you are at 21-22 than you were at 18-19. Your brain is still developing.

However, if you want to familiarize yourself with the test and maybe find out your strengths and weaknesses - fine.

I would suggest a formal logic course. At my undergrad it was offered as an elective.

[senslogine]

At the risk of branding myself as a gunner, I will tell you that I did something akin to this. I earned an Associate's degree while in high school and took the LSAT the Oct. that I started at the university. It worked out well (going to UVA in the fall), but I would caution you on a few things. First, my writing and reasoning skills developed a great deal during my first year at the university, and I could have used that greater understanding to boost my score a bit. Second, since I had two years of college already under my belt, I was not quite the typical "freshman." If your "high-level" classes are just AP, then wait. AP classes are bloated and don't really mirror college work that much, so do not assume intellectual readiness. However, if they are year or more of actual college courses, be it community college or university, you should be fine.

PM me if you want clarifications.

Thank you.

While I'm not as qualified as you, I have taken six actual university courses - Symbolic Logic, an intro philosophy course, 200 level English History, 300 level Tibetan history, Intro to Political Science and American Political Thought (200 level). I've taken six AP classes in addition, which I already know don't prepare you worth crap.

[Marionberry]

If you're just looking for something to occupy your time this summer, might I suggest marijuana and beer?

[09042014]

The idea sounds good, but there are a few reasons why I recommend you don't take it as a freshmen:
1) The transition to college is hard enough, and studying for the LSAT is a huge time commitment. ENJOY COLLEGE instead.
2) You'll develop critical thinking, logical and reading skills over your time in college. I'm sure you think you're very intelligent now, but you're only going to get more prepared for the LSAT through years of college coursework.
3) Most college kids switch their majors during college, never mind their career plans...

Seriously, don't stress about the LSAT before you've even gotten in college, career plans change and you become more intelligent throughout college. I can't emphasize enough that this is definitely not the time to be worrying about the LSAT.

Thank you for your response.

1) I would do most of my heavy studying during the summer, not during the time I was in school.
2) Would it be beneficial for me to learn the test now and then wait to take it after several years of college?
3) I know I'm not sure about what I want to do - I'm not saying that I for sure want to be a lawyer. I want to take the LSAT because I want to have that option- doing poorly on the LSAT would probably cause such a change of mind.

While I realize that now is likely not the proper time for me to worry, I honestly don't have anything else to do this summer and want to do something productive. I spend most of my time on a college campus with college kids because my only in-person classes were at my University. This means that the only people I would socialize with in the summer will be gone.

1)Yea, it doesn't matter, and Gen Eds are easy. Don't let your grades slip because of it and you'll be fine.
2)No, you only get less intelligent with age, and the logic on the LSAT is stupidly easy.
3)moxie, has a point but so do you and Ray. If you suck at the LSAT you can know not to go to law school, while you have plenty of time to switch.

What was your SAT?

3) My thinking exactly- if I know I can't go to law school because of the LSAT I have time to make the necessary changes.

I got a 32 on the ACT which I didn't actually study for and I can't for the life of me remember my SAT score, but the ACT conversion to SAT was a better number, so I applied with my ACT scores. I'm a National Merit Finalist, if that's relevant.

I wouldn't even bother with the LSAT yet then, your ACT is high enough that you'll do well.

I would recommend, finding a practical degree that you like. Maybe accounting and philosophy instead.

[09042014]

2) You'll develop critical thinking, logical and reading skills over your time in college. I'm sure you think you're very intelligent now, but you're only going to get more prepared for the LSAT through years of college coursework.

You're going to be really surprised as to how much smarter you are at 21-22 than you were at 18-19. Your brain is still developing.

However, if you want to familiarize yourself with the test and maybe find out your strengths and weaknesses - fine.

I would suggest a formal logic course. At my undergrad it was offered as an elective.

I dare you to back this up.

[senslogine]

Seems like a poor idea then huh?

I don't plan on going directly into the workforce after college no matter what I decide to do- anything I'd consider requires some type of graduate school.

[senslogine]

2) You'll develop critical thinking, logical and reading skills over your time in college. I'm sure you think you're very intelligent now, but you're only going to get more prepared for the LSAT through years of college coursework.

You're going to be really surprised as to how much smarter you are at 21-22 than you were at 18-19. Your brain is still developing.

However, if you want to familiarize yourself with the test and maybe find out your strengths and weaknesses - fine.

I would suggest a formal logic course. At my undergrad it was offered as an elective.

I've already taken the one formal logic course that runs regularly.

[senslogine]

Thank you for your response.

1) I would do most of my heavy studying during the summer, not during the time I was in school.
2) Would it be beneficial for me to learn the test now and then wait to take it after several years of college?
3) I know I'm not sure about what I want to do - I'm not saying that I for sure want to be a lawyer. I want to take the LSAT because I want to have that option- doing poorly on the LSAT would probably cause such a change of mind.

While I realize that now is likely not the proper time for me to worry, I honestly don't have anything else to do this summer and want to do something productive. I spend most of my time on a college campus with college kids because my only in-person classes were at my University. This means that the only people I would socialize with in the summer will be gone.

Make money, read some good books, get ready for college - those are all things to do the summer before college. I understand your desire to be productive this summer, how about taking a summer class?
And while I'm sure you could get a great score on the LSAT, why waste time taking a test if there's a chance you don't end up going to law school? Plus, you could get a bad score and then be dissuaded from law school, even though this probably wouldn't reflect your true potential.

My advice - buy a few prep books, and do some basic studying/build your logic and reading comprehension skills. I wouldn't recommend taking the LSAT this early, but getting a head start on the LSAT studying wouldn't be a terrible idea.

Also - heed the advice about LSAT scores only being good for 5 years. If you want to take a year off after college, it would invalidate your score if you took it this fall, rendering all your studying and hard work moot.

I would take a summer class in a heartbeat, but my university does not offer any summer courses, nor do any nearby universities offer courses that would transfer well.

Thank you for the warning and for your advice.

[Marionberry]

Seriouslym though, dude, I take it you're 18/19? I understand that you have a fire under your ass to do well in life and be successful, and that's great. That being said, you have a limited number of years left in your life where it's acceptable for you to act like an 18-21 year old. This is an ideal time to get a job waiting tables (or something similar), party, chase girls and expand your consciousness with any number of mind altering chemicals. You can do all these things and still achieve the same level of success you seek. This will actually be healthy and probably make you a more well rounded person that you would be otherwise.

[Paratiel]

At the risk of branding myself as a gunner, I will tell you that I did something akin to this. I earned an Associate's degree while in high school and took the LSAT the Oct. that I started at the university. It worked out well (going to UVA in the fall), but I would caution you on a few things. First, my writing and reasoning skills developed a great deal during my first year at the university, and I could have used that greater understanding to boost my score a bit. Second, since I had two years of college already under my belt, I was not quite the typical "freshman." If your "high-level" classes are just AP, then wait. AP classes are bloated and don't really mirror college work that much, so do not assume intellectual readiness. However, if they are year or more of actual college courses, be it community college or university, you should be fine.

PM me if you want clarifications.

Thank you.

While I'm not as qualified as you, I have taken six actual university courses - Symbolic Logic, an intro philosophy course, 200 level English History, 300 level Tibetan history, Intro to Political Science and American Political Thought (200 level). I've taken six AP classes in addition, which I already know don't prepare you worth crap.

In that case, I would recommend waiting until you have at least taken a few high-level philosophy courses. I was a philosophy major as well and found the 300/400+ level courses in the department to be valuable for sharpening writing, argumentation and reasoning. You could still use this summer to prepare, if you like. However, if your diagnostic score is too low for your goals, take a few phil courses and maybe wait until your sophomore year or so. Judging by your current course load, you have probably only saved yourself a semester or two quarters (not counting AP, whose value will depend on your school), so you will easily be able to fit in an LSAT-prep summer during your three to four years of undergrad.

[Paratiel]

Seriouslym though, dude, I take it you're 18/19? I understand that you have a fire under your ass to do well in life and be successful, and that's great. That being said, you have a limited number of years left in your life where it's acceptable for you to act like an 18-21 year old. This is an ideal time to get a job waiting tables (or something similar), party, chase girls and expand your consciousness with any number of mind altering chemicals. You can do all these things and still achieve the same level of success you seek. This will actually be healthy and probably make you a more well rounded person that you would be otherwise.

This is bad advice. If someone is in a position to capitalize on their youth and get a head start, they should take full advantage of it. There is nothing good about wasting time just for the hell of it or using the teenage years as an excuse for parasitism. If the OP wants to make something more of himself at a young age, more power to him.

[rayiner]

There is a decent SAT/LSAT correlation. If you killed the SAT verbal you have a decent shot at doing well on the LSAT. If you had a low SAT (and studied for it), then I'd take a few practice LSATs to help determine what you want to do with your career.

Remember, 50% of test takers get 151 and below. The median test taker can't get into even a shitty law school! Of 140,000 test takers, 50,000 don't even apply anywhere, and another 30-40,000 don't get in anywhere.

I personally woke up one morning after graduating and decided I wanted to go to law school, but if I had gone into a pre-lawish career track, I'd be really worried that I'd spent 4 years of schooling going down a dead end.

[KibblesAndVick]

Seriouslym though, dude, I take it you're 18/19? I understand that you have a fire under your ass to do well in life and be successful, and that's great. That being said, you have a limited number of years left in your life where it's acceptable for you to act like an 18-21 year old. This is an ideal time to get a job waiting tables (or something similar), party, chase girls and expand your consciousness with any number of mind altering chemicals. You can do all these things and still achieve the same level of success you seek. This will actually be healthy and probably make you a more well rounded person that you would be otherwise.

Agreed. How much do you think Biglaw Partners would be willing to pay if they could relive one year between senior year of high school and the end of college? You don't get your youth back. Don't seriously injure yourself, don't get arrested, and don't get anyone pregnant. Other than that, just let the good times roll.

[OG Loc]

I think there's no harm in going through some LSAT prep literature and seeing how good you are at it. But, like most posters are saying, I don't think there's any advantage to taking the LSAT so early; there will be ample time to prepare in college, and, while I can only speak for myself, I definitely became much more intellectually mature over my four years of college.

If you think you have nothing to do, here are some ways to spend your summertime that I think would be much better than balls to the wall LSAT prep, off the top of my head:

1) Go to amazon, find some books that interest you, read them. It would be good to read some books related to your intended major/career path, but also to read some completely unrelated. Who knows, you might have a hidden desire to be a nuclear engineer.

2) Find a good exercise and nutrition plan, hit the gym on the reg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjvZOh4OzBs), get in ridic shape, impress all the hotties come fall.

3) Buy a cheap guitar or keyboard, learn to play it, impress all the hotties come fall.

4) Enjoy yourself and others; go out and meet people, polish your charm, impress all the hotties come fall.

HTH

[martin024]

This is bad advice. If someone is in a position to capitalize on their youth and get a head start, they should take full advantage of it. There is nothing good about wasting time just for the hell of it or using the teenage years as an excuse for parasitism. If the OP wants to make something more of himself at a young age, more power to him.

Marion's point is that there's a ton of room for personal/emotional/social growth if you let yourself relax a bit and enjoy life for what it really is. This doesn't mean OP needs to go on cokebenders and knock over mailboxes. Or maybe it does. Whatever the case, social aptitude is essential to law, great relationships, general success, etc...

My advice to OP is to read good books and meet interesting folks this summer. Then just get awesome grades and forget about the LSAT til later.

[Encyclopedia Brown]

--ImageRemoved----ImageRemoved--

[Marionberry]

Marion's point is that there's a ton of room for personal/emotional/social growth if you let yourself relax a bit and enjoy life for what it really is. This doesn't mean OP needs to go on cokebenders and knock over mailboxes.

Admittedly, that's pretty much exactly what I meant, but you don't have to go to those extremes. However, if you want to look at it strictly in terms of practical utility, the amount of growth and experience you would gain from acting your age right now is probably going to increase your future earning potential more than the advantage you would gain by nerding it up all summer.

And I don't remember advocating parasitism. I would strongly encourage OP to buy his own drugs.

[094320]

..

[rv11]

I think there's no harm in going through some LSAT prep literature and seeing how good you are at it. But, like most posters are saying, I don't think there's any advantage to taking the LSAT so early; there will be ample time to prepare in college, and, while I can only speak for myself, I definitely became much more intellectually mature over my four years of college.

If you think you have nothing to do, here are some ways to spend your summertime that I think would be much better than balls to the wall LSAT prep, off the top of my head:

1) Go to amazon, find some books that interest you, read them. It would be good to read some books related to your intended major/career path, but also to read some completely unrelated. Who knows, you might have a hidden desire to be a nuclear engineer.

2) Find a good exercise and nutrition plan, hit the gym on the reg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjvZOh4OzBs), get in ridic shape, impress all the hotties come fall.

3) Buy a cheap guitar or keyboard, learn to play it, impress all the hotties come fall.

4) Enjoy yourself and others; go out and meet people, polish your charm, impress all the hotties come fall.

HTH

This is already a lost cause.

[Kobe_Teeth]

2) You'll develop critical thinking, logical and reading skills over your time in college. I'm sure you think you're very intelligent now, but you're only going to get more prepared for the LSAT through years of college coursework.

You're going to be really surprised as to how much smarter you are at 21-22 than you were at 18-19. Your brain is still developing.

However, if you want to familiarize yourself with the test and maybe find out your strengths and weaknesses - fine.

I would suggest a formal logic course. At my undergrad it was offered as an elective.

I dare you to back this up.

You dare me? Is that a double-dog dare? Its called google. Look it the fuck up if you're so curious.

[Kobe_Teeth]

You're going to be really surprised as to how much smarter you are at 21-22 than you were at 18-19. Your brain is still developing.

quote]

I dare you to back this up.

http://hrweb.mit.edu/worklife/youngadul ... html#young

"When teens enter young adulthood (18-25), their thinking capacities, relationship skills, and ability to regulate emotions are unlikely to be at a developmental level where they can cope easily with the demands of a diverse, global, technological, rapidly-changing world. If all goes well, biology and environment bring a surge of growth paralleling those of childhood and adolescence."

Obviously if you don't know something then it can't possibly be true, right?

[09042014]

You're going to be really surprised as to how much smarter you are at 21-22 than you were at 18-19. Your brain is still developing.

quote]

I dare you to back this up.

http://hrweb.mit.edu/worklife/youngadul ... html#young

"When teens enter young adulthood (18-25), their thinking capacities, relationship skills, and ability to regulate emotions are unlikely to be at a developmental level where they can cope easily with the demands of a diverse, global, technological, rapidly-changing world. If all goes well, biology and environment bring a surge of growth paralleling those of childhood and adolescence."

Obviously if you don't know something then it can't possibly be true, right?

Obviously. Dare successfully completed.

[fenway]

if you are thinking about studying for the LSAT in terms of getting a jump start on the preparation process, you are going a bit too fast. but if you simply like the challenge of standardized tests and want something to mess around with over the summer, I don't see any downside to taking some of your free time to take a look at something like the powerscore bibles. again though, you shouldn't look at this as a time for test prep

[Dead Ringer]

I'm sure you think you're very intelligent now, but you're only going to get more prepared for the LSAT through years of college coursework.

TITCR

I don't know how much you guys drank in college. I think I was probably sharper as a freshman. I think a little studying to see whether you have what it takes now is a perfectly good idea.