For TLSers who get angry when people trivialize their score Forum

[KibblesAndVick]

This is a terrible argument and its used constantly to justify the system.

That some people who are poor can get into law school due to the LSAT, does not mean that the LSAT does not discriminate, in the aggregate, against the poor.

Can some poor people do great on the LSAT? Yes. Is it more likely to fuck them then rich folks? Also yes.

Well what would you suggest that would help the poor? College GPA? Extracurricular activities? Do you think the other components are bastions of equality for the poor?

Conceding the fact that being rich makes the LSAT easier doesn't diminish the extreme benefit an objective standardized test has on upward social mobility for the poor.

[dominkay]

I love how people act like being a lawyer is a guarantee to a massive salary.

wait, when did people start mentioning salary in this thread? Or has this just turned into "random things that infuriate JohnBoy for no real reason"?

Someone said taking the LSAT and going to law school is upward mobility in the United States, measured in terms of salary.

So I commented on it.

Standardized testing in general has helped upward mobility significantly. Anybody who doesn't know this knows nothing about the history of standardized testing.

Seriously. The LSAT in particular was invented post-WWII specifically so that poor veterans who went to TTT undergrads could get into law school.

[mallard]

I'm sure that is one view. I know there are others that say standardized testing is geared towards white males, putting women and minorities at a disadvantage. I don't know either way, it is more complicated than a one sentence opinion.

It really isn't. Standardized testing replaced a system in which name and money were incredibly important with a system in which objective performance was incredibly important. Moreover, studies show that standardized testing leads to better results than systems in which "soft" measures like an interview are used.

I hope that helps!

[smartblonde87]

Lenders are happy to loan you money for law school. Loans for LSAT prep....less so.

No one will ever need a loan to successfully prepare for the LSAT. At most they'll need (1) a minimum wage job and (2) patience and dedication. (1) isn't exactly hard to find and (2) is in your own hands. The fact that Daddy's credit card makes it easier and more pleasant doesn't mean the system is conspiring to keep you down. At some point you have to take responsibility for your own life and stop bitching about circumstance.

+1

Passion + Hard Work + Perseverance = Upward Mobility

[Nikrall]

Lenders are happy to loan you money for law school. Loans for LSAT prep....less so.

No one will ever need a loan to successfully prepare for the LSAT. At most they'll need (1) a minimum wage job and (2) patience and dedication. (1) isn't exactly hard to find and (2) is in your own hands. The fact that Daddy's credit card makes it easier and more pleasant doesn't mean the system is conspiring to keep you down. At some point you have to take responsibility for your own life and stop bitching about circumstance.

No, actually, for some people "daddy's credit card" makes it doable as opposed to not doable. Not everyone can figure out the shit on their own. Some can, yes, but you are generalizing to ALL based on your own personal experience. You managed to do it. Congratulations. That doesn't mean everyone can.

[JohnBoy]

I guess I can take your word for it, you seem like a trusting guy.

[romothesavior]

No, actually, for some people "daddy's credit card" makes it doable as opposed to not doable. Not everyone can figure out the shit on their own. Some can, yes, but you are generalizing to ALL based on your own personal experience. You managed to do it. Congratulations. That doesn't mean everyone can.

ITT: Nikrall has serious insecurities.

[r2b2ct]

And if it bothers you so much, tell people your percentile. I would say "I got in the 96th percentile" and none of my idiot friends realized my score was actually TTT.

You can even make this more impressive by saying "and that's 96th percentile of people who take the LSAT, who are all college grads and have the motivation to try to go to law school. So it's basically that top of the top."

You forgot "Did you know that score qualifies me for mensa?"

[Nikrall]

This is a terrible argument and its used constantly to justify the system.

That some people who are poor can get into law school due to the LSAT, does not mean that the LSAT does not discriminate, in the aggregate, against the poor.

Can some poor people do great on the LSAT? Yes. Is it more likely to fuck them then rich folks? Also yes.

So what "system" do you recommend?

edit: quote fail

Thats a completely separate topic that will devolve quickly. Make the US more like European countries is the short answer. But my point here is mainly only that doing well on the LSAT is based largely on income and luck, not on hard work.

[dominkay]

Lenders are happy to loan you money for law school. Loans for LSAT prep....less so.

No one will ever need a loan to successfully prepare for the LSAT. At most they'll need (1) a minimum wage job and (2) patience and dedication. (1) isn't exactly hard to find and (2) is in your own hands. The fact that Daddy's credit card makes it easier and more pleasant doesn't mean the system is conspiring to keep you down. At some point you have to take responsibility for your own life and stop bitching about circumstance.

+1

Passion + Hard Work + Perseverance = Upward Mobility

Not quite.

Genetic gifts (intellect/talent) + Passion + Hard Work + Perseverance + Reasonably Good Luck = Win

[JohnBoy]

Lenders are happy to loan you money for law school. Loans for LSAT prep....less so.

No one will ever need a loan to successfully prepare for the LSAT. At most they'll need (1) a minimum wage job and (2) patience and dedication. (1) isn't exactly hard to find and (2) is in your own hands. The fact that Daddy's credit card makes it easier and more pleasant doesn't mean the system is conspiring to keep you down. At some point you have to take responsibility for your own life and stop bitching about circumstance.

+1

Passion + Hard Work + Perseverance = Upward Mobility

There we have it! The key to success.

Although, what about people who have a passion, put in the hard work but doesn't end in upward mobility?

I'm sorry to say, there are other factors involved.

[romothesavior]

And fwiw, neither "hard work" nor "connections and money" are solely responsible for upward mobility. It just ain't that simple.

[Audio Technica Guy]

And if it bothers you so much, tell people your percentile. I would say "I got in the 96th percentile" and none of my idiot friends realized my score was actually TTT.

You can even make this more impressive by saying "and that's 96th percentile of people who take the LSAT, who are all college grads and have the motivation to try to go to law school. So it's basically that top of the top."

You forgot "Did you know that score qualifies me for mensa?"

What score qualifies for mesna again? Isn't it like a 164 or something like that?

[Nikrall]

This is a terrible argument and its used constantly to justify the system.

That some people who are poor can get into law school due to the LSAT, does not mean that the LSAT does not discriminate, in the aggregate, against the poor.

Can some poor people do great on the LSAT? Yes. Is it more likely to fuck them then rich folks? Also yes.

Well what would you suggest that would help the poor? College GPA? Extracurricular activities? Do you think the other components are bastions of equality for the poor?

Conceding the fact that being rich makes the LSAT easier doesn't diminish the extreme benefit an objective standardized test has on upward social mobility for the poor.

And conceding that it has benefit for some people does not diminish the fact that test prep is extraordinarily helpful for the large majority of people and is extremely expensive.

[KibblesAndVick]

Lenders are happy to loan you money for law school. Loans for LSAT prep....less so.

No one will ever need a loan to successfully prepare for the LSAT. At most they'll need (1) a minimum wage job and (2) patience and dedication. (1) isn't exactly hard to find and (2) is in your own hands. The fact that Daddy's credit card makes it easier and more pleasant doesn't mean the system is conspiring to keep you down. At some point you have to take responsibility for your own life and stop bitching about circumstance.

No, actually, for some people "daddy's credit card" makes it doable as opposed to not doable. Not everyone can figure out the shit on their own. Some can, yes, but you are generalizing to ALL based on your own personal experience. You managed to do it. Congratulations. That doesn't mean everyone can.

They don't have any magical secrets that they whisper in your ear. They just guide you through test strategies and hold your hand while you take practice tests. The Powerscore Bibles will guide you through test strategies for a tiny fraction of the cost and there's no benefit to having some dude stand in front of the room while you take a practice test. The notion that some people can't prepare for the LSAT without tutoring is mind numbingly stupid.

[mallard]

Nikrall, what's "the European system"?

As a tutor I mostly used what I knew from TLS, since I didn't really need to prep myself. All you need is time.

[romothesavior]

LOL @ more like Europe. Please do tell us what your strategy for a more fair and equitable practice for promoting upward mobility would be. This thread has already derailed pretty far, so you might as well share your ideas.

And it isn't just working HARDER, it is working SMARTER. I know lots of hard working, really nice people who simply channel their energies into the wrong areas (working hard at bussing tables, then going home and smoking a bowl and dropping out of school isn't a real good life gameplan).

I think more than hard work, more than riches and networks, more than anything... I think it is about having a vision for where you want to go and putting yourself in the position to get there. Does having more money help? Absoluetly... it gives you a leg up, as well as a bigger safety net. But the reason so many of my friends (both well-off and poor) have failed with their lives is because they had no vision, no grasp on tomorrow, next week, next year. They lived with a very "right here, right now" mindset and they paid for it.

[Nikrall]

No, actually, for some people "daddy's credit card" makes it doable as opposed to not doable. Not everyone can figure out the shit on their own. Some can, yes, but you are generalizing to ALL based on your own personal experience. You managed to do it. Congratulations. That doesn't mean everyone can.

ITT: Nikrall has serious insecurities.

Ugh. You conflate feelings with myself about feelings about other people. I did well on the LSAT. I'm done with law school. But I see the struggles that other people go through to do well on the test. Not everyone is in the 170 range. There are people other than those who post on TLS.

[KibblesAndVick]

And conceding that it has benefit for some people does not diminish the fact that test prep is extraordinarily helpful for the large majority of people and is extremely expensive.

It's helpful and expensive. But it's also completely unnecessary. I'm not saying it's equal. I'm saying there's no serious barrier to entry for poor students. They have to work harder but it's not unobtainable. The system in place allows them to prove themselves and their abilities. The rich still have an advantage but it's not large enough to keep out any serious competition. That's not perfect but it's fucking awesome.

[JohnBoy]

LOL @ more like Europe. Please do tell us what your strategy for a more fair and equitable practice for promoting upward mobility would be. This thread has already derailed pretty far, so you might as well share your ideas.

And it isn't just working HARDER, it is working SMARTER. I know lots of hard working, really nice people who simply channel their energies into the wrong areas (working hard at bussing tables, then going home and smoking a bowl and dropping out of school isn't a real good life gameplan).

I think more than hard work, more than riches and networks, more than anything... I think it is about having a vision for where you want to go and putting yourself in the position to get there. Does having more money help? Absoluetly... it gives you a leg up, as well as a bigger safety net. But the reason so many of my friends (both well-off and poor) have failed with their lives is because they had no vision, no grasp on tomorrow, next week, next year. They lived with a very "right here, right now" mindset and they paid for it.

Actually no, it hasn't derailed..We are at a subsection of the American Dream

[Nikrall]

Lenders are happy to loan you money for law school. Loans for LSAT prep....less so.

No one will ever need a loan to successfully prepare for the LSAT. At most they'll need (1) a minimum wage job and (2) patience and dedication. (1) isn't exactly hard to find and (2) is in your own hands. The fact that Daddy's credit card makes it easier and more pleasant doesn't mean the system is conspiring to keep you down. At some point you have to take responsibility for your own life and stop bitching about circumstance.

No, actually, for some people "daddy's credit card" makes it doable as opposed to not doable. Not everyone can figure out the shit on their own. Some can, yes, but you are generalizing to ALL based on your own personal experience. You managed to do it. Congratulations. That doesn't mean everyone can.

They don't have any magical secrets that they whisper in your ear. They just guide you through test strategies and hold your hand while you take practice tests. The Powerscore Bibles will guide you through test strategies for a tiny fraction of the cost and there's no benefit to having some dude stand in front of the room while you take a practice test. The notion that some people can't prepare for the LSAT without tutoring is mind numbingly stupid.

My students generally see a 5-10 point bump from studying with me after studying just the bibles alone.

But 5-10 points on the LSAT is just chump change, right?

[Audio Technica Guy]

They don't have any magical secrets that they whisper in your ear. They just guide you through test strategies and hold your hand while you take practice tests. The Powerscore Bibles will guide you through test strategies for a tiny fraction of the cost and there's no benefit to having some dude stand in front of the room while you take a practice test. The notion that some people can't prepare for the LSAT without tutoring is mind numbingly stupid.

I disagree somewhat here. Courses/private tutors generally beat out just books by quite a bit, especially for those who are struggling with the test to begin with. Tutors are able to listen to what you are saying when you do a problem and tell you where and why you are messing up. A book can't do that very well. The Powerscore bible can tell you why the right answer is right and why the wrong answer is wrong, but it can't tell you why you are consistently choosing x type of wrong answer and how to avoid that.

Now of course there are tutors who are just live explanation banks. Those dudes are essentially a waste of money and you'd be just as well using a book. But a good teacher >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any books you are going to buy.

[Nikrall]

Nikrall, what's "the European system"?

As a tutor I mostly used what I knew from TLS, since I didn't really need to prep myself. All you need is time.

No wonder you thought you were scamming people.

[Nikrall]

Nikrall, what's "the European system"?

As a tutor I mostly used what I knew from TLS, since I didn't really need to prep myself. All you need is time.

I'm talking more about their social welfare system. They largely don't have extreme poverty (in some countries) because of the social safety net.

[mallard]

Nikrall, what's "the European system"?

As a tutor I mostly used what I knew from TLS, since I didn't really need to prep myself. All you need is time.

No wonder you thought you were scamming people.

lol. So what do you do with your students?

So wait. Social welfare is a replacement for standardized testing?