DECEMBER 2014 WAITERS Forum

[Shakawkaw]

I should feel comfortable going to a party without being pressed up against the wall and having some guy force himself on me and make me drink a beverage I have no interest in consuming.

This (though not quite so extreme) happens to me at the bar every time I go out. srs.

The last time I went out, I had one guy makes comments about my rear, another grabbed it, a third started chatting me up about my jewelry like he was gonna snatch it off me and a fourth on the way to my car tried to put his arm around me waist.

These things have nothing to do with frats or the drinking age. Its a social problem.

I agree - the greater issues stem from society; duck the patriarchy and all that jazz. However, when these sorts of practices are normalized during college (or any point in your life, really), it just perpetuates it further.

[jw316]

...

[secadc11]

Aren't most letters mailed in? Or is that done electronically?

Most are electronic. Mine was.

[thatlawlkid]

JW i am a fan of you.
Anyone that cares can feel free to read up on some non-rolling stone stats:
There are over 9 million Greek members nationally
Of the nation’s 50 largest corporations, 43 are headed by fraternity men.
85% of the Fortune 500 executives belong to a fraternity. 40 of 47 U.S. Supreme Court Justices since 1910 were fraternity men.
76% of all Congressmen and Senators belong to a fraternity.
Every U.S. President and Vice President, except two in each office, born since the first social fraternity was founded in 1825 have been members of a fraternity.
63% of the U.S. President’s Cabinet members since 1900 have been Greek.
A National Conference report shows a high percentage of the 4,000 NIC fraternity chapters are above the All-Men’s scholastic average on their respective campuses.
A U.S. Government study shows that over 70% of all those who join a fraternity/sororitiy graduate, while under 50% of all non-fraternity/sorority persons graduate.
Less than 2% of an average college student’s expenses go toward fraternity dues. (U.S. Office of Education)
Over 85% of the student leaders on some 730 campuses are involved in the Greek community. 1 st Female Senator was Greek
1 st Female Astronaut was Greek
All of the Apollo 11 Astronauts are Greek
Over $7 million is raised each year by Greeks nationally
The Greek system is the largest network of volunteers in the US, with members donating over 10 million hours of volunteer service each year
71% of those listed in “Who’s Who in America” belong to a fraternity
As Alumni, Greeks give approximately 75% of all money donated to universities
There are 123 fraternities and sororities with 9 million members total There are 750,000 undergraduate members in 12,000 chapters on more than 800 campuses in the USA and Canada

[2654815451]

Omg. This is a gross generalization and conflation of rape culture and what leads to it. Lowering the drinking age is dumb. Here's why: in campuses where are there no frats, it's very common to have older students purchase alcohol for you. You are simply placing the burden on the fact that drinking causes people to do dumb things. Consider that in several cases where rape occurs on college campuses, other substances are involved. The intent to rape is present. See: roofies. Simply lowering the drinking age will increase accessibility to alcohol and situations where rape can happen. It normalizes it. That's an absurd argument.

The reason why frats perpetuate this kind of behavior is due to hazing and the whole hierarchical structure that are inherent in fraternities, among a whole host of other reasons. I should feel comfortable going to a party without being pressed up against the wall and having some guy force himself on me and make me drink a beverage I have no interest in consuming. I've been to frat parties where the punch was spiked with drugs. That's normal in frats and shrugged off as being okay, and that's a problem.

you cannot just solve the issue of "intent to rape" in one broad sweeping move. it has to be a process and needs to start somewhere. i never said lowering the drinking age SHOULD be done but can be considered when trying to decide on a course of action.

please do not generalize a statement such as "that's normal in frats and shrugged off as being okay". it is not normal and is not shrugged off as being okay. in fact, most frats have leadership positions that ensure the chapter's compliance with laws. if you're taking about "gross generalizations" that you seem to be discussing, that statement is vastly generalized

Honestly, it depends on the frat. Some do amazing things and contribute greatly to society. They are good leaders. Others are not so good and contribute badly to society and give their frat a very bad name. Either way, they cannot be correctly stereotyped as being negative. As always, it depends on the people involved.

[cavalier2015]

JW i am a fan of you.
Anyone that cares can feel free to read up on some non-rolling stone stats:
There are over 9 million Greek members nationally
Of the nation’s 50 largest corporations, 43 are headed by fraternity men.
85% of the Fortune 500 executives belong to a fraternity. 40 of 47 U.S. Supreme Court Justices since 1910 were fraternity men.
76% of all Congressmen and Senators belong to a fraternity.
Every U.S. President and Vice President, except two in each office, born since the first social fraternity was founded in 1825 have been members of a fraternity.
63% of the U.S. President’s Cabinet members since 1900 have been Greek.
A National Conference report shows a high percentage of the 4,000 NIC fraternity chapters are above the All-Men’s scholastic average on their respective campuses.
A U.S. Government study shows that over 70% of all those who join a fraternity/sororitiy graduate, while under 50% of all non-fraternity/sorority persons graduate.
Less than 2% of an average college student’s expenses go toward fraternity dues. (U.S. Office of Education)
Over 85% of the student leaders on some 730 campuses are involved in the Greek community. 1 st Female Senator was Greek
1 st Female Astronaut was Greek
All of the Apollo 11 Astronauts are Greek
Over $7 million is raised each year by Greeks nationally
The Greek system is the largest network of volunteers in the US, with members donating over 10 million hours of volunteer service each year
71% of those listed in “Who’s Who in America” belong to a fraternity
As Alumni, Greeks give approximately 75% of all money donated to universities
There are 123 fraternities and sororities with 9 million members total There are 750,000 undergraduate members in 12,000 chapters on more than 800 campuses in the USA and Canada

amen

[Smallville]

And yes, I think frat culture is largely responsible.

how so? I strongly disagree with your statement and think it is just a blatant ignorant statement to make.

i think the problem delves into the drinking age of america. students generally enter college at the age of 18, thus three years underage. Therefore, bars are off limits (i mean sure you can get a fake id, but this is beside the point). Needless to say, they cannot buy alcohol. So what does a 18 year old, who WANTS to drink choose to do? attend frat parties because there is accessible liquor. How can we fix this? How about lower the drinking age to 18? This way, students who enter college are legally allowed to drink and can be more safe about their choices. Moreover, a really interesting proposal I've read is to lower the drinking age to 18 so that fraternities can have police enter their parties and look for students who may be too drunk and make sure they are safe. By lowering the drinking age, cops aren't trying to bust kids for underage drinking anymore and kids feel more safe drinking because they know it is not illegal and they have police to help take care if needed be. I know i didn't flesh out this idea fully but this is something to consider.

moreover, at my school (and i am assuming other schools too) when you try to enter a fraternity party, one is asked if they are a student at the university and if they are 21 or above. Thus, the fraternity does its part in complying with laws. If the students wishes to lie about their age, it is not the fraternity's fault because there wasn't resonable doubt to thing they weren't 21. You aren't going to ask for their drivers licensee when working the door, so you ask them to be honest about it. This is even stronger with schools that have strict honor codes (UVA). Once the student represents himself/herself as a UVA student they are bound not to lie and if they lie and as a member of frat, and also a member of the honor code community, you believe the student.

Omg. This is a gross generalization and conflation of rape culture and what leads to it. Lowering the drinking age is dumb. Here's why: in campuses where are there no frats, it's very common to have older students purchase alcohol for you. You are simply placing the burden on the fact that drinking causes people to do dumb things. Consider that in several cases where rape occurs on college campuses, other substances are involved. The intent to rape is present. See: roofies. Simply lowering the drinking age will increase accessibility to alcohol and situations where rape can happen. It normalizes it. That's an absurd argument.

The reason why frats perpetuate this kind of behavior is due to hazing and the whole hierarchical structure that are inherent in fraternities, among a whole host of other reasons. I should feel comfortable going to a party without being pressed up against the wall and having some guy force himself on me and make me drink a beverage I have no interest in consuming. I've been to frat parties where the punch was spiked with drugs. That's normal in frats and shrugged off as being okay, and that's a problem.

Not sure how that is considered normal or by whom it is shrugged off...
Also as for the drinking age, I do feel it plays a part in peoples behavior, though changing it would solve nothing for a while. I mean if you look at other countries that have no drinking age or have it significantly lower, there are much less drinking related issues, because it is not a big deal. People tend to want to experience drinking and get drunk bc it is mysterious to them then once they do it it is the norm for parties to just get wasted. with a lower drinking age, it becomes less of a big deal and there would much less kids going around "trying to be cool" bc they wouldnt be doing anything special... and yes drugs are a big part of rape culture but they are by no means tied strictly to greek events. If there is an organization (greek or not) who drugs drinks they give out without it being clear to everyone what is in it then they should absolutely be shut down... but that is not representative of organizations as a whole. Not all fraternities have crazy hazing rituals nor are fraternities the only organizations who do have hazing rituals. You should feel comfortable going to a party and if you arnt you leave and go to another, or a bar, or just hang with your friends. Unfortunately there are terrible and messed up people out there so you need to be aware and careful

[peger]

On to happier news, I checked my LSAC academic report thang for the first time and they bumped up my GPA. Haaaaaaaaaay.

Congrats! I just checked LSAC and my third LOR is in, so I'm officially ready to hit submit come score release time.

Did it just get posted today? If so, wouldn't that mean at least some people are in the office?

It's automated. Don't read too much into that boo.

[cavalier2015]

for a website dedicated to LSAT, guys we all know that what is true of a sample is not true of the whole!

[Shakawkaw]

Honestly, it depends on the frat. Some do amazing things and contribute greatly to society. They are good leaders. Others are not so good and contribute badly to society and give their frat a very bad name. Either way, they cannot be correctly stereotyped as being negative. As always, it depends on the people involved.

I'm not disagreeing with this.

[notesfroma_i3]

Hello December waiters!

Can I get an award for being ridiculously; epically, late to this thread? What are we, possibly (hopefully) 4 days out from the estimated release date?

But I digress. I was browsing LSAC and finally found my GPA Academic report. Right under that link is the "Related Information" box. I clicked on Admission Index and got..- (Just realized I can't attach photos).

It's a three column chart with the name of the law school, "A XLSAT", B XGPA, and C +CONSTANT. It's titled "Admission Index Information Sheet 2014–2015 Application Cycle" and repeats for several previous year cycles.

Anyone certain on how to read the information?

[jw316]

The reason why frats perpetuate this kind of behavior is due to hazing and the whole hierarchical structure that are inherent in fraternities, among a whole host of other reasons. I should feel comfortable going to a party without being pressed up against the wall and having some guy force himself on me and make me drink a beverage I have no interest in consuming. I've been to frat parties where the punch was spiked with drugs. That's normal in frats and shrugged off as being okay, and that's a problem.

Shak you know I love you!

I agree with you that hazing and hierarchy are there in many fraternities and can definitely lead to shitty things, and I 100% agree with your point about intent—drugging punch is not okay and that was clearly intentional—and about comfort—you shouldn't have to be uncomfortable and I hope you don't feel like you have to stay pressed up against a wall, etc.—but I also don't think it's fair to go as far as you are in terms of almost implying causality between fraternities and "this kind of behavior."

That same culture isn't inherent to frats. Look at athletics or hell even the marching band. There's hazing on all levels, whether we're talking about professionals dressing up in drag or as big babies and doing errands or the real fucked up cases in HS where a group of kids shoves something up another kid's asshole, etc.

I should feel comfortable going to a party without being pressed up against the wall and having some guy force himself on me and make me drink a beverage I have no interest in consuming.

This (though not quite so extreme) happens to me at the bar every time I go out. srs.

The last time I went out, I had one guy make comments about my ass, another grabbed it, a third started chatting me up about my jewelry like he was gonna snatch it off me and a fourth on the way to my car tried to put his arm around my waist.

These things have nothing to do with frats or the drinking age. Its a social problem.

^ what she said.

And sidenote: I've really become cognizant of what you're saying about how most guys act and when I go out I've really stopped like any of that. I always try to put myself in someone else's shoes and I can't even imagine just wanting to have fun with my girls and someone touching me or coming up to me and trying to ___ every 2 seconds. So like if I catch them staring I'll look at them and smile or something, but I really just kind of stopped approaching random women when I go out.

It's gotten to the point that sometimes women are either like "uhhh are you even interested? /gay?" or having spent the evening at a bar with my friends and not really talking to any women except the ones we came with, some girl will either come up and introduce herself and buy me a drink/offer to or like just come up and start dancing on me or kissing me, etc.

What's the happy medium there?

[GreenTee]

.

[cavalier2015]

on the topic of academic summary report, I have a row that is titled "Num. Candidates". Is this reflective of the current cycle or the previous ones? and this isn't just the k-jds right?

[Smallville]

The frat issue:

I honestly don't know anything about what frats do outside of their "social events," since my school did not have Greek life. That said, parties on my campus were extremely tame compared to schools that do have Greek life. I chaired the disciplinary board, and the worst cases we ever saw were for drugs and noise complaints. I'm sure that mostly has to do with campus culture, irrespective of the absence of fraternities and sororities.

But frats are social organizations, and when they dominate campus life, I think it's safe to assume that they have some impact on the character and culture of the college. On my campus, academic life was the centerpiece of the student experience. People went to parties on the weekends, but it wasn't the reason for being there. I'm just not convinced that's true in most schools that have a strong Greek presence.

But again, I have very limited experience with Greek life, so I'm probably making some unwarranted assumptions.

not saying the case, but food for thought. Maybe its the college's atmosphere and such? as in bc of that atmosphere or whatever you wanna call it there is not greek culture in ur school and not too many big issues, but the atmosphere/people at other schools are what cause there to be greek culture to arise and not greek culture causing the issues, they are merely coincidental...

[IsThisForReal]

What's the happy medium there?

I actually dont mind guys approaching me, its just how thats the problem. I've never actually had a guy offer to buy me a drink or attempt normal conversation. Its always an invasion of personal space or some crude comment.

ETA: I don't go out a lot.

[GreenTee]

.

[jw316]

What's the happy medium there?

I actually dont mind guys approaching me, its just how thats the problem. I've never actually had a guy offer to buy me a drink or attempt normal conversation. Its always an invasion of personal space or some crude comment.

ETA: I don't go out a lot.

Crude comment as in "nice ____" clearly implying he's checking out your ass or something. Not like "hey ITFR, I'm sure you get this all the time but your eyes are gorgeous"

Invasion of personal space like random dude in the street putting his arm around your waist after last call, etc. Or like being at a bar with your friends and a guy just comes over, no name/introduction, no "hi would you like to dance"? Just looks at you and slides his way over to you and your girls and sneaks up behind you and starts grinding his P on your B and you're like "uhhh hello? Do I know you?"

I also stopped buying women drinks when I was out with some friends my soph year in college and the girls literally made it a game to see how many free drinks they could get that night knowing 100% well it as just a game and neither of them had any interest in anything more than getting a free drink. Was kind of hilarious to watch it keep happening to these poor saps but then I was like "hey! wait a minute!"

[Shakawkaw]

What's the happy medium there?

I actually dont mind guys approaching me, its just how thats the problem. I've never actually had a guy offer to buy me a drink or attempt normal conversation. Its always an invasion of personal space or some crude comment.

ETA: I don't go out a lot.

tl;dr Men are pigs

According to JW, women are too.

Also, JW - how does that make you feel (re: womyn putting the movez on you)? I need to know. For science.

tl;dr: hoomans suck. we should all just be cat ladies.

[2654815451]

What's the happy medium there?

I actually dont mind guys approaching me, its just how thats the problem. I've never actually had a guy offer to buy me a drink or attempt normal conversation. Its always an invasion of personal space or some crude comment.

ETA: I don't go out a lot.

So true. I don't mind guys buying me a drink, talking to me, flirting, etc. But when they invade my personal space when I don't even know them like that... HUGE turn off. I am also not a very touchy person so this could affect that.

[Rigo]

[IsThisForReal]

What's the happy medium there?

I actually dont mind guys approaching me, its just how thats the problem. I've never actually had a guy offer to buy me a drink or attempt normal conversation. Its always an invasion of personal space or some crude comment.

ETA: I don't go out a lot.

Crude comment as in "nice ____" clearly implying he's checking out your ass or something. Not like "hey ITFR, I'm sure you get this all the time but your eyes are gorgeous"

Invasion of personal space like random dude in the street putting his arm around your waist after last call, etc. Or like being at a bar with your friends and a guy just comes over, no name/introduction, no "hi would you like to dance"? Just looks at you and slides his way over to you and your girls and sneaks up behind you and starts grinding his P on your B and you're like "uhhh hello? Do I know you?"

I also stopped buying women drinks when I was out with some friends my soph year in college and the girls literally made it a game to see how many free drinks they could get that night knowing 100% well it as just a game and neither of them had any interest in anything more than getting a free drink. Was kind of hilarious to watch it keep happening to these poor saps but then I was like "hey! wait a minute!"

The drink game thing is a damn shame. Humans are horrible creatures.

[GreenTee]

.

[GreenTee]

.

[IsThisForReal]

Also hey guys! I was offered a Peace Corps placement today. So that's exciting.

Yay!!!!! Congrats!