The Official September 2014 Study Group Forum

mornincounselor · Post by **mornincounselor** » Thu May 22, 2014 9:29 am

Post removed.

cavalier2015 · Post by **cavalier2015** » Thu May 22, 2014 12:08 pm

when you guys first started drilling: did you keep time?

I plan to start main conclusion LR drilling tonight and am unsure if I should time myself. I planned to do it untimed but in 25 question sets and just record the time it takes me to finish them. And for each question, I would do the BR method (circling ones I am not 100% sure of). There's only 67 questions so I can easily get through them today and spend rest of tomorrow going over each one using the BR method. and repeat this cycle every other day. Should I do this or just get through 67 questions at once?

also did you guys print out 3 copies for each LR also? I know this is advised for the LG but am not sure how you guys drill LR and how your review them. any tips before I start tonight would be greatly appreciated!

cavalier2015 · Post by **cavalier2015** » Thu May 22, 2014 1:17 pm

additionally, for main conclusion questions that involve two speakers and the stem asks you for the main point of one of them: do you read both or just read the one that the stem refers to?

mornincounselor · Post by **mornincounselor** » Thu May 22, 2014 1:35 pm

Post removed.

cavalier2015 · Post by **cavalier2015** » Thu May 22, 2014 2:14 pm

i've been doing the assumption and flaw questions and I am finding it really hard to think of the flaw before I attack the questions. I find it much easier to eliminate the wrong answers based on things that the manhattan LR book says are distractors and choose between two answer choices.

is there a certain method you guys follow for assumption and flaw questions that has been working effectively?

vracovino · Post by **vracovino** » Thu May 22, 2014 3:30 pm

cavalier2015 wrote:when you guys first started drilling: did you keep time?

I plan to start main conclusion LR drilling tonight and am unsure if I should time myself. I planned to do it untimed but in 25 question sets and just record the time it takes me to finish them. And for each question, I would do the BR method (circling ones I am not 100% sure of). There's only 67 questions so I can easily get through them today and spend rest of tomorrow going over each one using the BR method. and repeat this cycle every other day. Should I do this or just get through 67 questions at once?

also did you guys print out 3 copies for each LR also? I know this is advised for the LG but am not sure how you guys drill LR and how your review them. any tips before I start tonight would be greatly appreciated!

Am also interested in whether or not I should be keeping time for LR drills.

mornincounselor · Post by **mornincounselor** » Thu May 22, 2014 3:36 pm

Post removed.

BillPackets · Post by **BillPackets** » Thu May 22, 2014 4:02 pm

cavalier2015 wrote:when you guys first started drilling: did you keep time?

I plan to start main conclusion LR drilling tonight and am unsure if I should time myself. I planned to do it untimed but in 25 question sets and just record the time it takes me to finish them. And for each question, I would do the BR method (circling ones I am not 100% sure of). There's only 67 questions so I can easily get through them today and spend rest of tomorrow going over each one using the BR method. and repeat this cycle every other day. Should I do this or just get through 67 questions at once?

also did you guys print out 3 copies for each LR also? I know this is advised for the LG but am not sure how you guys drill LR and how your review them. any tips before I start tonight would be greatly appreciated!

You can keep time. Should be about 1 min/question for those.

I print off extra copies of the questions I missed and then cut them
Out. You don't have to do that. I just like having a fresh question to look at instead of a page that I've marked up.

DestroyingTheLSAT · Post by **DestroyingTheLSAT** » Thu May 22, 2014 5:06 pm

cavalier2015 wrote:when you guys first started drilling: did you keep time?

I plan to start main conclusion LR drilling tonight and am unsure if I should time myself. I planned to do it untimed but in 25 question sets and just record the time it takes me to finish them. And for each question, I would do the BR method (circling ones I am not 100% sure of). There's only 67 questions so I can easily get through them today and spend rest of tomorrow going over each one using the BR method. and repeat this cycle every other day. Should I do this or just get through 67 questions at once?

also did you guys print out 3 copies for each LR also? I know this is advised for the LG but am not sure how you guys drill LR and how your review them. any tips before I start tonight would be greatly appreciated!

I like to do untimed sections at the beginning to really get familiar with the concepts I just learned for that particular question type. I do still "time" it - but just to get a sense of where I am at.

Tyr · Post by **Tyr** » Thu May 22, 2014 5:34 pm

cavalier2015 wrote:when you guys first started drilling: did you keep time?

I plan to start main conclusion LR drilling tonight and am unsure if I should time myself. I planned to do it untimed but in 25 question sets and just record the time it takes me to finish them. And for each question, I would do the BR method (circling ones I am not 100% sure of). There's only 67 questions so I can easily get through them today and spend rest of tomorrow going over each one using the BR method. and repeat this cycle every other day. Should I do this or just get through 67 questions at once?

also did you guys print out 3 copies for each LR also? I know this is advised for the LG but am not sure how you guys drill LR and how your review them. any tips before I start tonight would be greatly appreciated!

In the beginning, don't worry about time. Make sure you have the correct fundamentals and are solving problems THE RIGHT WAY. Then, as you get more fluid with the correct methods, you'll just naturally get faster. As you are able to go through the problem solving process more and more naturally, start pushing yourself to increase your speed without sacrificing accuracy. Accuracy now, speed later.

I think of the LSAT like golf. When learning golf, you don't just grab a club and start flailing away at balls (well, some people do but they end up as awful players unless they are some crazy prodigy). Instead, you practice your grip, your stance, your balance, your tempo, your take away, the back swing to about hip-high, the back swing to the top, the transition from the top to the down swing, and so on. You gradually learn each part of the swing. Then, some instructors such as Harvey Penick suggest you swing at about 50% speed - while maintaining proper tempo and balance. Eventually you speed up to 100%, but you must maintain all of the fundamentals.

There is a lot of time between now and the September LSAT (but not enough, right?!!?) so don't rush yourself to get all the questions done in some arbitrary amount of time just yet. Get your fundamentals down, then speed up.

lawschoolhopeful15 · Post by **lawschoolhopeful15** » Thu May 22, 2014 5:51 pm

Hey all,

I have my first diagnostic tomorrow. Should I do the entire exam timed or is it better to do the first few untimed so you can finish the entire exam?

mornincounselor · Post by **mornincounselor** » Thu May 22, 2014 6:08 pm

Post removed.

Toby Ziegler · Post by **Toby Ziegler** » Thu May 22, 2014 7:36 pm

Tyr wrote:
I think of the LSAT like golf. When learning golf, you don't just grab a club and start flailing away at balls (well, some people do but they end up as awful players unless they are some crazy prodigy). Instead, you practice your grip, your stance, your balance, your tempo, your take away, the back swing to about hip-high, the back swing to the top, the transition from the top to the down swing, and so on. You gradually learn each part of the swing. Then, some instructors such as Harvey Penick suggest you swing at about 50% speed - while maintaining proper tempo and balance. Eventually you speed up to 100%, but you must maintain all of the fundamentals.

I like this! As a +1 handicap (read: me bragging) I think this advice is credited. I noticed that when I would time myself doing questions before I fully understood the concepts I would worry too much about timing and then forget to apply principles of solving the questions -- they weren't engrained enough yet. But just as someone mentioned above, you will naturally get faster.

Toby Ziegler · Post by **Toby Ziegler** » Thu May 22, 2014 7:40 pm

mornincounselor wrote:
lawschoolhopeful15 wrote:Hey all,

I have my first diagnostic tomorrow. Should I do the entire exam timed or is it better to do the first few untimed so you can finish the entire exam?
Well if you want to take it as a diagnostic, timing is required. Or else it holds little predictive value. But it's fine to take a test without following the strict timing guidelines, I just wouldn't call it a diagnostic.

You can always do the whole test timed then go back and finish it before grading. You might want to do some type of blind review before you grade it anyways.

Yes keep time. But I don't think you need to blind review on your diagnostic. Just figure out what you missed, what were the most problematic sections, then I would see which question types in LR gave you the most trouble.

lawschoolhopeful15 · Post by **lawschoolhopeful15** » Thu May 22, 2014 8:25 pm

Toby Ziegler wrote:
mornincounselor wrote:
lawschoolhopeful15 wrote:Hey all,

I have my first diagnostic tomorrow. Should I do the entire exam timed or is it better to do the first few untimed so you can finish the entire exam?
Well if you want to take it as a diagnostic, timing is required. Or else it holds little predictive value. But it's fine to take a test without following the strict timing guidelines, I just wouldn't call it a diagnostic.

You can always do the whole test timed then go back and finish it before grading. You might want to do some type of blind review before you grade it anyways.
Yes keep time. But I don't think you need to blind review on your diagnostic. Just figure out what you missed, what were the most problematic sections, then I would see which question types in LR gave you the most trouble.

Thank you both for the advice. I have been doing some blind review already so I will just keep time and make note of what I don't finish then go back and finish sections afterwards.

BillPackets · Post by **BillPackets** » Thu May 22, 2014 8:44 pm

lawschoolhopeful15 wrote:
Toby Ziegler wrote:
mornincounselor wrote:
lawschoolhopeful15 wrote:Hey all,

I have my first diagnostic tomorrow. Should I do the entire exam timed or is it better to do the first few untimed so you can finish the entire exam?
Well if you want to take it as a diagnostic, timing is required. Or else it holds little predictive value. But it's fine to take a test without following the strict timing guidelines, I just wouldn't call it a diagnostic.

You can always do the whole test timed then go back and finish it before grading. You might want to do some type of blind review before you grade it anyways.
Yes keep time. But I don't think you need to blind review on your diagnostic. Just figure out what you missed, what were the most problematic sections, then I would see which question types in LR gave you the most trouble.
Thank you both for the advice. I have been doing some blind review already so I will just keep time and make note of what I don't finish then go back and finish sections afterwards.

Also re timing: I have a count up timer app that I typically use when drilling. It's helpful and doesn't put pressure on you.

lawschoolhopeful15 · Post by **lawschoolhopeful15** » Thu May 22, 2014 9:00 pm

Also re timing: I have a count up timer app that I typically use when drilling. It's helpful and doesn't put pressure on you.[/quote]

Is there a particular LSAT proctor or anything that is better to use or that is preferred?

BillPackets · Post by **BillPackets** » Thu May 22, 2014 9:33 pm

lawschoolhopeful15 wrote:Also re timing: I have a count up timer app that I typically use when drilling. It's helpful and doesn't put pressure on you.

Is there a particular LSAT proctor or anything that is better to use or that is preferred?[/quote]

7sage has a free app with a proctor.

Toby Ziegler · Post by **Toby Ziegler** » Thu May 22, 2014 11:13 pm

BillPackets wrote:
lawschoolhopeful15 wrote:Also re timing: I have a count up timer app that I typically use when drilling. It's helpful and doesn't put pressure on you.

Is there a particular LSAT proctor or anything that is better to use or that is preferred?

7sage has a free app with a proctor.[/quote]
This is so true. Bill showed me this app and I was a little embarrassed that I didn't have it. It has an amazing proctor and an explanation (video) for every single one of the games, and myriad other feature, if you have an iOS device (not sure if there is one for android) download it!

chicharon · Post by **chicharon** » Fri May 23, 2014 11:12 am

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cavalier2015 · Post by **cavalier2015** » Fri May 23, 2014 11:45 am

when you guys review and go through each answer choice, do you write out why each is wrong or just verbally/mentally say why it's wrong and justify the other wrong answers and then reason why the right answer is right?

Dr. Herzenstube · Post by **Dr. Herzenstube** » Fri May 23, 2014 12:08 pm

cavalier2015 wrote:when you guys review and go through each answer choice, do you write out why each is wrong or just verbally/mentally say why it's wrong and justify the other wrong answers and then reason why the right answer is right?

I like to write it out because 1) it forces me to be more thorough and 2) if I go back and look at the question, I can review my thought process rather than trying to recall it from memory.

Toby Ziegler · Post by **Toby Ziegler** » Fri May 23, 2014 2:46 pm

cavalier2015 wrote:when you guys review and go through each answer choice, do you write out why each is wrong or just verbally/mentally say why it's wrong and justify the other wrong answers and then reason why the right answer is right?

I do it mentally while drilling. But during blind review I will write it out.

cavalier2015 · Post by **cavalier2015** » Fri May 23, 2014 4:21 pm

awesome thanks for the tips.

how do you guys approach sufficient assumptions? i feel like i am doing it wrong. i do the following:

1)read stem to see if its sufficient assumption quesiton
2)find conclusion and premise
3)look for term shifts between the premise and conclusion
and if term shifts are present, look for the answer choice that directly addresses these two terms and links them in some way
4)if term shifts are not apparent right away, look to eliminate wrong answers
i look for: conclusion redundancy, premise qualifiers, and out of scope answer choices
5)eliminate wrong answers and choose the answer left

I feel like this way is counter productive and takes too much time. have y'all found patterns in sufficient assumption questions that can speed up the process?

Tyr · Post by **Tyr** » Fri May 23, 2014 4:31 pm

cavalier2015 wrote:awesome thanks for the tips.

how do you guys approach sufficient assumptions? i feel like i am doing it wrong. i do the following:

1)read stem to see if its sufficient assumption quesiton
2)find conclusion and premise
3)look for term shifts between the premise and conclusion
and if term shifts are present, look for the answer choice that directly addresses these two terms and links them in some way
4)if term shifts are not apparent right away, look to eliminate wrong answers
i look for: conclusion redundancy, premise qualifiers, and out of scope answer choices
5)eliminate wrong answers and choose the answer left

I feel like this way is counter productive and takes too much time. have y'all found patterns in sufficient assumption questions that can speed up the process?

I think you're doing fine until step 3. I don't initially look for any one particular flaw in the logic. I identify the conclusion and the premises, then I identify the gap - whatever that may be. I think it is important to have a flexible understanding of the flaw because the correct answer could be something that you were able to pre-phrase or it could be something that approaches the flaw from an unexpected angle. Being set on simply looking for term shifts could trip you when the questions get more complex and the language is more "fuzzy."